#63 - Nick Wiseman @ Little Sesame

Episode Recap:

ReGen Brands Recap #63 - Winning At Retail With Regen Hummus - (RECAP LINK)

Episode Transcript:

Disclaimer: This transcript was generated with AI and is not 100% accurate.

0 - 00:00:15
Welcome to The ReGen Brands Podcast. This is a place for consumers, operators and investors to learn about the consumer brands, supporting regenerative agriculture, and how they're changing the world. This is your host, Kyle. Joined about my co host, AC, is going to take us into the episode.

1 - 00:00:34
On this episode, we have Nick Wiseman, who is a co founder and the CEO of Little Sesame. Little Sesame is supporting regenerative agriculture with its lineup of organic and regeneratively farm hummus products. That includes a flavor lineup of smooth classic, jammy tomato, caramelized onion, Irby Jalapeno and the newly launched preserved lemon. In this episode, we learned how Nick and his team pivoted Little Sesame from restaurant to retail during COVID, the freshly spun difference that makes their hummus unique, and Little Sesame's explosive growth strategy and results. We covered a ton with Nick in this one. Y'all This episode is super rich with insights into everything from direct trade farm relationships to driving product velocities at retail to building self manufacturing as a competitive advantage. Pumped to share it with you. Let's go. What's up, everybody? Welcome back to another episode of The ReGen Brands Podcast.

1 - 00:01:21
Very excited today to have our friend Nick from Little Sesame joining us. So welcome, Nick.

2 - 00:01:34
Hey. How y'all doing?

0 - 00:01:36
Well, great, man. Particularly excited. I'm particularly excited about this episode. I love Consumer Regenerative Products. I am, an unpaid affiliate for a Little Sesame. I mean, like, crap.

1 - 00:01:48
Kyle is a Little Sesame fanboy. I remember, like, a year ago No joke. Bro. There's this brand little I mean, it's so cool that we gotta get them on the bottom. They're amazing. So Kyle's your biggest fan name.

0 - 00:01:59
I literally, like, Christmas this year at my house. Like, My my parents bought, like, Sabra hummus, and I brought Little Sesame hummus. I was like, you just need your peasant hummus if you want. Like, I'm eating the good stuff and trying to convert everybody. So, yeah, I'm I'm carrying that torch strong. So we're super pumped. Nick, for those who are unfamiliar with the brand, Lilacuse me, give us a quick, like, lay the land. What used do you produce? Where can we find you today?

0 - 00:02:16
You know, set the table for us.

2 - 00:02:26
Absolutely. So we centerpiece that we make is freshly spun hummus. Using a 100% regenerative, generally farm chickpeas. We make, like, a a nice core lineup of SKUs. We have our, like, smooth classic, Herbie jalapeno, caramelized onion and jammy tomato, and we just recently dropped the preserved lemon hummus. We're actually upcycling all the lemons we use for juice in the hummus. We're We're now nationwide Whole Foods, Sprouts, sweet cream. They were in, like, another 1000 kind of small independent or secondary doors. In DC, New York, and LA. Nice.

0 - 00:03:01
Oh, yeah. I'm super upset that preserve lemon is not available in retail today. I didn't know that he would launch until I went on the website this morning, and I was like, literally salivating. So, man, get that thing in retail ASAP.

2 - 00:03:13
Coming soon coming soon. Come. Actually, we have we we can we can share that news here. We have coming to Sprouts soon. The next few weeks, you'll see it on Sproutshelves nationwide and then Let's go. Soon thereafter at Whole Foods.

1 - 00:03:25
So Let's go. Take care. Nice. Yeah. Colin and I are in a fight. He's a Urbi Jalapeno guy. I'm a caramelized onion guy. My story with Little Sesame is I had not tried the product and I was on a big family trip in Colorado and we stopped at a whole foods kind of before we got into the mountains. And I just, of course, got the car and, like, grabbed every regenerative item this whole foods in some random town in in Colorado. And so we had all the skews, and it was really cool to, you know, show the whole family and talk about the regen piece and all that. But we know there's a super cool story behind all of this, Nick. So share with, the listeners a little bit about your personal background and how, you know, little little test we came to be.

2 - 00:04:03
Absolutely. So I actually started my journey as a line cook. Started cooking in professional restaurants when I was fifteen years old.

1 - 00:04:11
Wow.

2 - 00:04:11
Kinda chasing chasing chef dreams. Made this smart decision to go to school. I went to school in California. But then immediately it was, like, you know, backed back to Chef Life and, landed in New York City cooking and Mitchell's star restaurants. We're happy to be trained on the fish station by this guy named Ronan, who's now came to be a partner in Little Sesame, Ronan, and I kinda shared, say, passion for you know, kind of bringing that high quality experience but reaching more people. And so we we always kinda dreamed up of of, like, what we could do together. Wanting to have more fun than sort of, like, the the structure and rigidity of fine dining. And so we we started a Little Sesame a few years later, spending freshly spun hummus and, out of a small pop up shop in DC, 500 square foot basement in the heart of DC. And from there, you know, it it, you know, we go to Farmers Market to the weekends, by by ingredients.

2 - 00:05:00
You know, we write kind of a new menu every week. And people just loved it. You know, people were relying about the door. We, at that time, I had met Casey Bailey who was farmer in Montana through my wife who had done food core, worked on, like, trying to bring Montana agriculture into schools, so I had this relationship with Casey and, you know, had to basically convince Casey. It was worth it to to send 50 come back to Chickys at a time when he's out there growing 5000. 5000 acres, so made zero zero economic sense for him. But, you know, enough calls later convincing that was worth it.

2 - 00:05:31
So, you know, Ron and I started spinning hummus, you know, £2 at a time and a tabletop mixer, but we built a real following around the product out outside of this little up restaurant. And 2 years later fast forward, we launched the first brick and mortar, standalone restaurant a few blocks away from the pop up. To a lot of acclaim. DC loved it, rallied behind us. You know, lines out the door. People were really excited about what we were doing.

2 - 00:06:00
Maintain the same sort of quality of ingredient supply chain starting to scale that relationship with Casey to make a bit more sense And, then fast forward 2 years at and boom pandemic hit. So, you know, we had planned to scale that up and really, like, grow a restaurant business and, obviously, sort of

1 - 00:06:25
Is it like a broader Mediterranean concept in the hummus or just the point, or was it literally we literally just like a hummus restaurant, or what's the what's the menu?

2 - 00:06:32
It it was a lot of hummus to be at. No. It was it was hummus bowls, pizza sandwiches. So Got it. Again, like, always rotating through a seasonal ingredient. So we were able to, like, work with some cool small farmers, on, you know, on the East Coast kind of featuring a menu that changed throughout the year. And, again, part of the thesis as well was like, hey, we're serving downtown office workers a little, like, oh, eight's away from their busy work days. So, you know, COVID, the office worker's gone overnight evaporated itself. Had to shift. You know, product didn't have to shift, but distribution strategy had to shift. And so we started hand packing parts of hummus. Kinda proudly we turned the front half restaurant into a communication. We served a 100,000 free meals during the pandemic. Wow.

2 - 00:07:08
Back half. Back half restaurant, we turned into a lab and Ron and myself had third guy, Ron, spent the better half part of a year figuring out how to commercialize the hummus for grocery store shelves. And we're lucky enough to land a deal and and end up in 14 Whole Foods in the Mid Atlantic. So that's kind of the journey that got us to to see if we do.

0 - 00:07:38
Wow. I feel like you're using this word spawn very intentionally, and I don't know what that means. Like, like, people like it. In my mind, you make hummus, but, yeah, what does it mean to spin hummus and why is actually spun.

2 - 00:07:48
It is. We use that. We use that a lot. You know, it's interesting, especially as people scale up the way that people blend hummus changes lot. So it goes like these in line, small blended tubes, which, you know, just probably know what pays attention to, but key to us is you know, as we even as we've scaled up, we've never changed the way we blend the hummus. And the way we blend it as aeration, it gets that level of creaminess. So, you know, it's just one big differentiator for us from the rest of the stuff that's on the shelf. That we're very intentional about that. You know, we've sealed up our cooking tremendously. We've sealed up our our our filling and sealing tremendously, but in the middle, we're still very manual.

2 - 00:08:17
You know, we're spinning in small batches throughout the day.

1 - 00:08:28
Is that, like, a trade secret, Nick, that, like, you can't reveal how you do that, or is it just something that everyone else, like, knows about and chooses not to

2 - 00:08:36
you know, most people when there are size and we got the same advice was like, don't manufacture You know, don't don't make your own product too many pitfalls. It's a horrible idea. And, you know, probably, rightfully so, you know, lucky for us, we were like scrappy restaurant people. So We're able to kind of apply that that lens to manufacturing and learn along the way. We also equip ourselves some smart people that had done it before. Yeah. He's a big regenerative guy and hopefully we'll listen in. But, he helped us a lot. He had built hope hummus actually as their CEO.

2 - 00:08:59
So he he was helpful to us in sort of Wow. Imagining a building or at our scale up of of hummus as we moved, into our manufacturing facility. But, yeah, that was, again, when we're talking to co backers, no one would no one would do it that way, but no one no one would soak chickpeas or all. No one would fresh squeezed lemons. No one would blend that way. So there was a bunch of things we're doing that, the co packers wouldn't do.

2 - 00:09:22
And those sort of qualitative differences or what we believe is, like, what makes the product shine in itself.

0 - 00:09:35
Yeah. What's particularly impressive is that you're able to maintain that level of, like, integrity manufacturing while not having a super premium price point at shelf. So the fact that you're able to, like, pull that off is incredible. Previously on the podcast, we had a, almond butter company who, like, stone ground almond butter, you know, and and for the quality and the nutritional differences, like, they that's what they believe in. But that really, like, put them in this pigeonhole of, like, super high premium ARPs, which doesn't make the product super approachable. So, you know, kudos to you all for figuring out how to do that at scale with a national launch. Like, that must not have been easy. So, yeah, give us to you all.

2 - 00:10:10
Yeah. I mean, the value of manufacturing is that, like, direct control supply chain. You know, sight line to what things cost, negotiating our own, our our own contracts with suppliers upstream. And then we spent a lot of time actually building relationships with players. You know, Casey, we've noticed that we're buying £50 at a time. So we had these relationships that we built over years, that we just continue to grow. So it became a win win for us as we saw real scale, and that helped us really drive down down cost.

0 - 00:10:37
Totally makes sense. You know, and I appreciate the, the context for the the origin story. What we did not touch on at all for the origin story was the regen So I'm curious from your perspective, like, when did region become the word or the movement? Why did you really wanna work so badly with Casey? And, you know, what does what does that relationship look like? Like, how did that develop and what does it look like moving forward?

2 - 00:10:56
Yeah. So as I said, my wife was up in Montana and, you know, we I I grew up on the East Coast, you know, like farms I knew here were, like, you know, big ones were a couple 100 acres and Those are like really big ones. Right? Most things were small patches of land growing on, you know, 20, 38 acres, diversified vegetables. So that was kind of like the agriculture I grew up and new. But I'll say even, you know, I'd say, like, I could start the culinary journey even the earlier, which is like, I was in high end fine dining kitchens, and there was really no connection agriculture. Like, we weren't thinking at all about, like, this origin story of of the food.

2 - 00:11:27
It was, like, quality was a driver but it didn't have any connection to quality of agriculture or the agriculture story or armor attached to it. That's just started when I was really cooking. I'm I'm in the mid thirties. I started cooking 15. It's almost 20 years ago. That whole, like, there was this that was spec was percolating.

2 - 00:11:44
Obviously, like, started in Cali All Alice Waters and, like, that whole movement there that started moving, you know, across the US, but That, like, network of growers didn't really exist. So there was no connection in my, like, professional life of, like, food and agriculture. Then I went to school at Berkeley, California, and it's like, you have lemon trees, like, growing out of the street, and you have restaurants like Alice. Alice Waters Waters who are, like, telling this story in your face and, like, making it clear on, like, provenance of ingredient really matters. And then you, like, taste it like, holy shit. It does. There is such a huge impact when you do follow this agriculture story.

2 - 00:12:18
So I I then drew this connection. And so that was like really for me when it it synthesized. And then I'd say part 3 of that was like, woah, agriculture kind of in my later, like, 2 years later after that. I was, I'm cooking, kind of learning the impact that agriculture had on climate. And for me, that was, like, the big through line, which is, like, food, agriculture, climate, if we can move shift food, there's so much of potential impact up and downstream, both on, like, agriculture practices and healing lands, and investing in, like, rural America and then also, like, up, you know, in terms of upstream in terms of, like, the climate impact it could have in the long term. So that for me was like, uh-uh moment where I was like, wow, I wanna I could sit at this intersection, I can maybe make a a bit of an impact.

2 - 00:13:00
And so that's where I sat. And then so back to the Montana story, I was like, I was just these small, little chopped up farms in the East Coast. And I saw this land in Montana and the acreage in which they were growing. And I was just, like,

3 - 00:13:20
so

2 - 00:13:20
and I never say anything like, you know, they needed to, like, planes to manage this land. It was so big.

1 - 00:13:24
And I

2 - 00:13:24
think from one side of to the other of Casey's farm took us like 45 minutes to drive. It's just so much land. And so the potential for impact was so huge. So I just got in more excited and and items, like, double down. Like, how how can I build a business around scaling this type of agriculture and maintaining these, like, the health of these grasslands? And so that was, you know, that was another driver behind I love assessment.

0 - 00:13:48
I I think AC's got a question, but I need to start by real quick. When we talk about the wild urban agricultural environment in Berkeley, There's also not just lemon trees going out on the sidewalks, but there's like like literal packs of wild turkeys that are so intimidating, just like roaming the streets. It's like literally on the sidewalk. They're just, like, strutting and they're like, you get off my sidewalk. Like, we're not moving for you. It's crazy. So just just had to share that story. Not a lot of opportunities talking about wild turkeys me, but this was wonderful.

2 - 00:14:15
It's really loud there.

1 - 00:14:17
Oh, man. That's so that's so cool. There's so many, like, themes that have come out so many of these episodes that are coming to mind, Nick, as you share all that. I'm gonna try and piece them together in a in a coherent and concise manner. So bear with me here. But it's like, the need for the production to lock in the good agricultural value and so like you can't just end at the farm in the way that the the products are manufactured so important, both from a customer palatability and a differentiation perspective, but also a, you know, kind of locking in all the value that was created farm and that's so evident with all these rebranded brands having, you know, an entrepreneur at the helm or or a team of entrepreneurs at the helm that are both savvy. You can figure out how to make the economics work, which is a challenge, but also care about the impact in the climate piece and find ways to do that. Like the direct trade relationships, like the the self manufacturing, like that's really, you know, bubbling up for me based on what you're sharing. So just just really cool.

1 - 00:15:01
And I think, you know, that last piece and what y'all are a great example of is there's not a ton of brands that are in line from a price point for effective in the regen space, and y'all are there. And I've seen some investor decks that share some some solid margins as well to go along with that. So it's really impressive and it's really important. Right? Because we can't we can't really scale this unless we can do both those things. Have adequate margins from an enterprise perspective and have a a price point that's accessible from a customer perspective.

2 - 00:15:35
Totally. Yeah. I mean, uh-uh, I've learned over my, like, I started restaurants that kind of have run the gamut and and learn a lot there. You know, you have to be scrapping restaurants. Like, restaurants aren't built, like, a lot of CPG brands where you can spend a lot of extra money to figure it out, right, like restaurants helping me have to be profitable there. It's a different. So that's that's like the world I grew up in, and sort of like learned in the trenches. So that was certainly like a driving force behind, like, how how we built a model was, how we could be scrappy and again, provide, like, value on shelf, but also continue to make good investments into good agriculture. So that was trying to trying to, like, thread that needle. It's it's always been kinda driving for us for us.

0 - 00:16:17
Yeah. I'm curious to, like, take it to, like, the agronomy piece, which the this feels more like, Ethan and I recently been, like, Rory Versal. I usually talk about regional stuff, so it feels good to be back in my home. Talk to us a little bit about, like, what Casey's doing on his farm and how that's different from how the majority of chickpeas are grown in the United States or abroad.

2 - 00:16:34
Right. So Casey could do a lot better job explaining this than I. You know, these shout out to all farmers, really.

1 - 00:16:43
We had Casey who was gonna come on, but he is a part of the what what's the governing body in Montana? Yeah. He's he's got a policy. And farmer based stuff in Montana. He's really underwater right now doing all that. So we are going to have a brand farmer combo episode at some point, and we'll have Casey on at some point, but just to he he couldn't join us today, unfortunately.

2 - 00:17:05
So, yeah, Casey in here. Casey is farming on 5th generation land. He inherited the land from his from his parents who were also farmers they were farming pretty traditionally, like, in that commodity wheat rotation of farming, which is like what you see most across, the grasslands across, like, the the great plains there. And so, Casey studied theology. He, like, sort of left farming for a while. But then decided, like, and was like, I'm never gonna farm. And but then, of course, like, a lot of awesome next gen farmers, like, Kayback was like, no. I this is, like, where I wanna make an impact.

2 - 00:17:33
I wanna to land and try to think about things slightly differently. And so Casey basically took over 5000 acres of land and experimented for 10 years and tried to figure out how we could turn it back turn turn it back to organic. Now he was lucky to kind of work under this group called Timeless seeds. Sorry if I got Daveo Dave Owen was, like, renegade farmers in the seventies that kinda, like, saw this early of, like, this first move into regions, creating value for for cash crops that could then incentivize farmers to leave the security of of commodity wheat. And so, anyway, Casey, Casey was, like, under their umbrella and under their wing and learning from them, but also simultaneously just sort of testing, ways to grow in his land differently, and he did a lot of, like, perennial rotations about valve side. And then I remember him showing us the farm where, like, deep chattering systems, like, 15 feet deep the altopper just healing healing the soil after generations of just using the soil tilling, farming, tilling, farming.

2 - 00:18:24
So He he spent a lot of time just like on soil health. And then he started, like, sort of testing this choreography of a crop rotation. So at one point, I think he was growing 17 crops, blending, you know, chickpeas, obviously, chicken, obviously, at the centerpiece, chickpeas, the centerpiece, but, did lentils, did when we did, Blacks, you know, a lot of things that he brought into the rotation, and it was all test. Right? Like, what works? What You know, it could be co planted, you know, different seasons, extending seasons for himself.

2 - 00:19:00
So I think, you know, he would explain as like a 10 year giant experiment. And there wasn't really a road map on how to do it. But it was pretty amazing to me when I saw the witness. It was 45 minutes to drive across the land. Yeah. He managed it with 22 people, and that was just because, like, there was really just, like, a college he was working to his advantage. Right?

2 - 00:19:19
Like, his, like, a a team of could have been 10 more people was, like, the ecology was the other ten people. And so it was him and his his partner were, like, really managing the massive piece of land and, he had nature, like, working, in tandem with him to make it really work at scale. And so minimal water inputs, you know, and it was pretty amazing to, like, watch the choreograph choreography built sort of over a decade and and see it working in action. So, I'm not sure he says, like, working in action yet, but, I know what he had, you know, because I think for him, it's a lifelong experiment, but I know what he had sort of He was able to grow like an equally yielding in terms of per acreage crop, higher protein. So healthier crop, without using any of the synthetic inputs that you see on the sort of commodity side of farming.

1 - 00:20:17
Wow.

0 - 00:20:18
Yeah. That's wild. And I love the way you phrased it. Like, the ecology is working for him. It's one of those, like, human I think inherent is that we can control nature. Right? We can develop new scientific tactics, develop machinery, and control our environment. But at the end of the day, like, We're going food outside. If you're in a greenhouse or some sort of indoor facility, it's a little bit different, but if you're growing food outside, like, you need to work with nature and also, like, this notion of, like, soil is a substrate and it it it's only value is what we put into it rather than the soil being like the value in and of itself and like allowing that ecology at microbiome to work for you. Is just something that is so far removed from most agricultural today.

0 - 00:20:53
So really appreciate that notion of like letting nature work for you working with nature to develop you know, a more profitable entity requiring less inputs, less people, less manpower, and creating better products at the same time. Like, it's such a win when you lay it out that way. And I guess so frustrated as to why, like, more people aren't doing it yet. You know?

2 - 00:21:16
Yeah. No. It's it's pretty amazing to see. I mean, We brought our whole team out there to see it. And it was, you know, all of us were just completely blown away by, like, what we were used to seeing when you're flying over American, you just, like, see these chapter pieces of land that are artificially green. And, you know, it's it was just such like a unique experience for us to to go out there and learn and see and be challenged the way to think about agriculture in a whole new way. So, and again, it's, like, right next door to farms that are still, stuck on sort of commodity wheat rotation. So it was really cool to see, like, the side my side.

1 - 00:21:46
Yeah.

2 - 00:21:47
Casey's also cool is because I think, you know, unlike a lot of these farmers, I think it and and the challenge, I think the one piece for Jennifer has from the farming perspective is, like, it can be polarizing. Like, so many issues in America now. Right? Like, it's, an approach of, like, it's not better or you know, it's I think from that's the way he's approached. It's like, hey, I'm just learning to do it a different way, and we're all figuring this thing out together. And I think that approach has, like, brought a lot of people, to Casey and why he's become kind of like a defacto leader in the space is because I think he's been really good about building like a coalition around them and and and bringing people to to think about things in a new way. Not by like processing or selling his vision, but by by making it accessible and, and encouraging people to think about things in a new way. So it's cool. Yeah.

2 - 00:22:25
That

1 - 00:22:36
that that really stood out to me in in the kind of the question that Kyle just posed, Nick, was like, why are more people not doing this? And it's and and the the thing that really struck me like lightning when you were talking about Casey is this is a 10 year experiment, and we have not given the farmers the proper incentives, economic support to where they can be experimental like that. And like that, I think, is where regenerative has so much potential to do that and it'd be this never ending journey. Like you also mentioned that Casey really feels like this this is never gonna end. This is a lifelong thing. And we know that Regen Brands are not the silver bullet to do that every single time, but we have seen countless times now that they do expand that experimental capacity of these farmers. And, like, we we have to do that because that's how we get them on the path.

1 - 00:23:16
And then we get into the whole, the more contentious issue of, like, what level of that path or where on the continuum do you deserve market validation for those experimental efforts, right, and what what outcomes do you need to do to prove it or what what practices do you need to follow to prove it, which to me usually gets us away from the main point, which is like the the the work that's actually happening. Right?

2 - 00:23:42
I I and I love that. And I think that's where we've tried to be, like, relationship first and all these relationships, you know, and all of our, like, waiting about supply chain. It's like, it is there is flexibility and it is always changing. It is an experiment. I guess, like, that's it's our the challenge of us is to tell that story, meaningfully. And then we can, again, empower Casey to kinda, like, you know, help him be on this journey and grow together. But, you know, we've we're always, you know, he had a a shitty year last year. It was bad weather here.

2 - 00:24:03
You know, climate change is certainly like rearing its head out out out out there. And so weather patterns are unpredictable and you can have bad seasons. And we're able to work together, like, solve the problem. Right? It wasn't like, hey, move on. Let's find a new farmer.

2 - 00:24:15
It was like, hey, I have a network of other farmers who are doing things the right way here. Let's, like, Can we absorb some of the some of their product into ours for this year? And so we had this flexibility when, like, COVID hit and, you know, we were, like, and what we don't even know what our business is gonna look like. Casey's like, hey, hold, you know, like, don't pay me. You just accept a lot of product. Don't don't pay me pay me when you can.

2 - 00:24:35
So it's like, there is the give and take that comes out of those relationships. So I think that's gonna be like a necessary part of of scaling this region ag is is is both brands or or restaurants that can scale meaningfully and farmers that are willing to, like, take the leap in together, you can start to see a real shift. And so that's that's what we're excited about is is, like, continue to tell the story, but that's why we we lead all often with the story of Casey. Right? It's just like, you know, it's just one farmer, but it is that I think an example of, like, the power of the relationship to drive the change.

1 - 00:25:12
How'd you get him to take a flyer on you early on? You get him to send you the first £50 back? Like, obviously, you're probably buying 1000 of pounds from the guy now, but, like, what? How did you convince him to be like, hey, dude. Send me £150 back.

2 - 00:25:23
Like, I'm probably my wife, you know, like, she's she's more convincing than I am, but, and she she had she had no case even before. But I, you know, I probably had, like, a little glimmer in my eye of hope that, like, we could build something meaningful. I'm sure I sold them on a bear story and, you know, you know, I tried to

1 - 00:25:43
Sounds like a founder.

2 - 00:25:46
Exactly. An idealistic founder before you get jaded from being in the trenches, but No. I, the cynicism hadn't, it shouldn't yet, but, no, I I, you know, I think it was you know, I I laid out. I think always it's been that for us, it's like, here here is the vision, and we believe it's possible. Take a leap with us. And so, you know, we've convinced a few people to to take the leap along the way.

1 - 00:26:12
Okay.

0 - 00:26:12
I wanna rewind to a part store you just shared about, like, the fragility of regenerative supply chains. And this is particularly important to me, especially from, like, a retail and or certification perspective, like, to your point, like, you've got a great partnership with this amazing farmer who might have a bad season, and you might need to source from a different supply chain who might not have the same certification might not be exactly the same criteria. They might exceed it. I don't know exactly, but it makes it really complicated for a regenerative brand trying to maintain, like, an identity preserved supply chain to say, hey. All of these everything we use is X Y Z certified or verified or whatever, you know, system you wanna call out. And how why, like, our system of, like, everything has to be certified is so hard for regenerative brands because you're trying to work with nature and do the and sometimes things are going to be impacted. So I just wanna call that out because it strikes me as, like, x another one of those, like, extra challenges that regenerative brands have to face that most other brands don't have to worry about because commodity weed is commodity weed.

0 - 00:26:58
Go to, you know, one of the list of hundreds of suppliers out there and find another weed source. You know? So I wanna call that out also wanted to talk about, you mentioned before, like, the higher protein content in the chickpeas. I'm wondering if there are any other nutritional benefits that you all are aware of from particular source. And then this is like a famous 3 part question. After that, I wanna get into the branding side of things because little says to me, like, amazing branding, super clean, but it doesn't really, like, throw a region at you, like, on its face.

0 - 00:27:27
Right. Really to me, like, the primary attribute is, like, the smooth, like, classic smooth home. And so, like, how are you communicating to consumers? Like, number 1, how do you get them into your brand in the first place? Where is region in that sort of, like, attribute hierarchy? And, you know, to just what does that look like? What's that communication look like?

1 - 00:27:55
How a 3 part question becomes a nine part question so fast.

0 - 00:27:59
I'm really not that.

2 - 00:28:01
We'll try to tackle it. No, we wanna go down the path of actually testing product and understanding sort of like new value versus others. And, that's definitely, like, on our radar screen, we wanna do. You know, protein you know, like, I think part of the story, we do tell getting the part a to the question was, you know, we do, like, lead with, like, plant based protein and the power of hummus to to deliver that. And so obviously, like, Again, the chickpeas as the driver there. So definitely wanna, like, dig in there and understand more. I think, you know, there is, like, good macro studies out there that kinda make the case Like, when things are growing region, generally nutritional value is stronger, obviously, you wanna make that that case on on, like, a unit level basis with with our product. In terms of hierarchy storytelling, yeah, it's interesting for us.

2 - 00:28:44
You know, we've, on the retailer side, talking to retail buyers, We talk we talk region all day long because we are we are 1st in category. We are leading the charge. We are way ahead of anyone else out there in terms of Oh, yeah. In terms of building a supply chain as it relates to our category. Now what we have found is that, like, it's We we haven't resonated as much. We've told that story using those exact words on con on on on pack.

2 - 00:29:09
So we've been more focused on pack of, like, highlighting Casey, this farmer, telling that story, like, through our social and other channels, because I think people connect with the human story. And it's, like, the power of our of our of our of growing together. Right? Like, this this this hummus business that's just outside of DC, you know, factories, at this point, it's been £20, £30,000 of hummus a week. And this 5000 acre farm in Montana, like, how these stories come together around the chickpea plant is pretty awesome. And I think people really connect with.

2 - 00:29:36
But we haven't gone hard at, like, sort of regen on pack. And you know, I hope that will change. You know, I think we've we've kind of hedged and gone more into like climate positive, right, to like the thing I think that will can drive consumers a bit more right now, which is like, well, you know, I think health value and then, like, climate impact. I think are bigger drivers, and they haven't necessarily, like, most consumers, I don't think they've, like, understand the through line that we talked about earlier, which is like climate food agriculture. Right? Like, these things are all connected. So just talking about region and, like, great.

2 - 00:30:12
It's I don't even think they have much of understanding beyond what it means beyond organics. So for us, we kinda lead them with this climate narrative more, which is like, there is real climate value in growing this way. You know, the the the impact of no till. And so we tell that story a lot. We we, you know, use, again, across our channels. We talk about, like, climate impact of of growing food differently. And, we lean out that. So it's on our packet says climate positive goodness.

2 - 00:30:34
That's, you know, where we've kind of landed today. But my goal is just to as we as regen grows and understanding of it from consumer side grows that we continue to lean into that message more. So kind of different stories to different people. But the buyers, I would say, like, for other brands out there, they're thinking about going down the path of region, like, I will say buyers, especially, like, the big natural chain buyers, like, they wanna they wanna move in this direction. So, like, it it will give you a competitive advantage immediately. Mhmm.

0 - 00:31:15
Yeah. I really like that example, and I think it's important that, you know, Little Sesame's killer. Both from a product perspective and in in what I just learned from a category perspective as well. And it's important for all of the brands in the space to kinda learn from those who are leading the doing it the right way. And I'm gonna say the right way. I don't just mean, like, the practices on the ground, but, like, with the the brand is actually growing in in the category leader. So I super appreciate that share. And what I like about is is is it kind of focuses on a similar story and Regent is not the centerpiece, but it's a critical piece. Right?

0 - 00:31:37
So it's like that direct form relationship, that direct trade relationship that highlighting in that former happens to be regenerative. So I think that's a really interesting way to showcase regen is in sort of like not the forefront capacity. And part 2, I like what you said about, and this sort of proves the anti nice theory of change also that it starts with human health and then, like, the the region piece and the climate piece can kinda be like a a loyalty attribute, but not the main purchase driving attribute. You know what I mean?

1 - 00:32:09
So It starts with tasting flavor and then human health. Yes. And then the the other one. Yeah. Yeah. I agree. And we I feel like we've tried to bring a lot of nuance to that conversation because it's obviously different based on what kind of product you have and what geographies and retailers you're in. And that's that's a really interesting arc for me to try and think about and step back because we don't have a lot of, like, really scaled returner brands at this point. I mean, we have a couple incumbents that are very committed that are scaled brands. But their portfolios maybe aren't necessarily, like, really fully regen or that regenerative yet. And so I think about doctor James Richardson who wrote ramping your brand, put this, like, really cool post this article together about, athletic brewing and about how their future growth is really about getting people to, like, not drink Coke or Doctor Pepper and to drink n a beer, not getting someone to who's like sober at the bar to drink n a beer, which I found super interesting to think through for regenerative brands like what's where where when is that going to shift for a lot of these products and brands, like at what revenue number and at what distribution? Because climate positive might be this little cool thing that people on the coast at Whole Foods love, Nick, but when you get into kroger in Cincinnati, somebody might somebody might wanna not buy it because it says that or whatever.

1 - 00:33:10
Nothing against kroger and Cincinnati from the Midwest. It's just an example of you know, there there's this, like, multifaceted really deep, dense thing to think through. And it also just comes back to taste flavored nutrition at the end of the day. Like those are never going to change, and so I still think you always lead with those, which clearly y'all have built a foundation there, but it is really interesting to think about almost like the secondary drivers, what's really meaningful and worth putting time into and like bringing to a consumer.

2 - 00:33:50
Totally. Yeah. And I think for us, it's like If it's not climate positive goodness, it's like American farmers. You know, I think, like, ever everyone can get ever ever anyone American went down with that, and it's, like, how do we, like, create this renaissance of American farming? It's good for everybody. I and and heal soil, like, soil as a building block for, like, culture and community is you know, I think is something we can all rally behind. So, you know, I think you're right. The narrative shifts, especially, again, as you like, you know, as product and distribution shifts and grows. And there's certainly different narratives that are gonna resonate, but our hope is that, like, this grown in America, this Montana story, which is like a real all American story can can really resonate.

0 - 00:34:27
Yeah. I totally agree with what you're saying, Nick. To me, like, I I think of regenerative agriculture is, like, the purple bridge between, like, the left leaning blue and the the right leaning red. Because it, like, puts climate in the forefront, but also is like small holder farmers. You know? It's it's like, let's let's take care of the soil, but let's also, like, focus on our ruminant animals and meat.

1 - 00:34:47
Really common.

0 - 00:34:47
You know, you can it's like, yeah, you can do both. You can really create a bridge here that can get both parties interested, and you can message to the entire United States, which is so rare to be able to do these days. Like, I can't think of anything else. Outside of, I mean, literally anything else that can do that. So I get super pumped about the possibilities.

2 - 00:35:05
I mean, I I live in DC, so I feel that that divide constantly, and we're we're in the thick of it here. So a 100%. I think, like, I I I like to tell that story all the time. And, you know, food is a way to kind of build that bridge is the most powerful. Right? Like, nothing nothing stronger than a long table to kinda like have that conversation. So, you know, we actually did. We last time we were in Montana, we hosted a dinner on Casey's farm, He bought like a fifty foot long table in the middle of his chickpea fields and had that exact conversation.

2 - 00:35:23
Right? Like, definitely, like, brought brought a bunch of stakeholders that sat on all sides of the aisle to the table. And, you know, I think we all shared the same vision, which is, like, it's pretty cool that you can build an urban brand and in DC and support this type of agriculture Montana, and it's good for both. And it really was a bridge. And so there is definitely power there in, It's pretty awesome to be like the connector.

1 - 00:35:53
And at the end of the day, we're talking about can your product create an emotional connection with a neater with a consumer, which I think is so important, and that's that's something that I really look at as an investor that's really important to me, especially in the category. And you look at my portfolio or some of the regent brands, I think, have high potential. Like, it's because the brand, the product, the story, whatever it is, all these things that we've just talked about have really that potential to create this emotional connection. Sometimes gonna be climate. Sometimes it's gonna be the farmer. Sometimes it's gonna be the environment outcome. Sometimes it's gonna be I'm gonna make you skinnier.

1 - 00:36:16
Whatever that is or or all of the above. And like that truly is still the north star every time, which is really cool.

2 - 00:36:28
Yeah. And how much is such a visceral thing to eat? I think that's, like, yeah, the powerful things like sharing with the Bahamas, like, you know, it is such a I mean, it's a such an old food history of it. It's just like cross so many cultures and, yeah, it's such an accessible place to start. So, yeah, I I that's really it's, you know, you you'd find that you, like, learn these things about product the deeper you get into it. Right? Like, we, you know, we started making hummus just because we, like, love hummus and wrote to my partner, like, and, you know, when at family meals, the restaurant just, like, made the best hummus and we were all blown away. Right?

2 - 00:36:57
Like, so It was not like we had, like, done a a b school case study about, like, hummus is the greatest product to launch a market, but you learn the kind of this intrinsic value as it brought it as you go. Like, hey, it's high visibility in the grocery store and,

0 - 00:37:10
you

2 - 00:37:11
know, it's got, like, pretty high household penetration in America. I'm like, it is food that really is today that says it's a visceral element really people really do connect with. And he has people really excited on, like, a effective way that's gonna have that kind of, like, big brand impact. So it's cool to kind of, like, learn about the product as you go

0 - 00:37:27
Totally, man. I I feel very much the same way about bone broth. You know, at first, it's on bone broth. It's like a hot trend 5 years ago. Things are going well, but then you turn out it's like a millennia old super food that people have been consuming to, like, save themselves from death for years. And it's actually, like, one of the first foods humans ever made for themselves when, like, we were still scavengers and they were taking carcasses and cooking them in water to get nutrients. Like, so it's it's amazing, like, what you can learn about a category after you've already been a part of the category. That just really resonated. As

1 - 00:37:56
you know, how communal hummus is. Right? Like, I bring I bring Alex ice cream to a lot of parties as, like, the gateway product into regen for a lot of people, but not everyone needs ice cream. And, I mean, who doesn't like ice cream? But, you know, it's way easier to bring some Little Sesame and just throw it on the the mez board. Right? Because everyone's having apps or drinks or whatever. And so I love it as a product that can be a gateway product into the bigger like region universe too.

0 - 00:38:22
Totally. And you get to bring his ex mighty chip or a moonshot cracker or something else and just, like, really throw down and go, like, full regen.

2 - 00:38:28
I we've we've I've crushed a lot of Little Sesame homeless is sex cracker. So right there with you. Yeah. And I it's cool about these, like, old cuisines, like, like, the Broombras story. It's like, there's just so much, like, knowledge built into old cuisine. Right? Like, that food culture like imprinted in there that we don't necessarily pay attention to or like Boire, but once you start digging and you're like, wow, there's just like the health value, the use, use of whole animal. Like, there's just so much there. So if you pay attention, look backwards.

2 - 00:38:49
There's often a lot to learn about, like, how to how to move it forwards and try to, like, heat a lot of of that history and, like, inform what we do now too.

0 - 00:39:00
No doubt. I do kinda wanna pivot the conversation more towards, like, the commercial piece. So, like, you guys are creating amazing hummus. You get this beautiful packaging. The brand is fantastic. From your perspective as a founder in the restaurant industry, what did that pivot into the retail space look like? Like, how did you select the right broker partners, or how did you decide what accounts you wanted to get into? And what did scale look like and what are you hoping to achieve in the future? You mentioned like Whole Foods and Sprouts National, handful, like regional independence, like What's the goal in the next, you know, 1, 3, 5 years?

2 - 00:39:29
Totally. So, you know, I was lucky to, like, surround myself early when we started to make this transition to CBG with people that had, like, been there and and done it before. So, you know, like, shout to Pat Jamay who's, like, built a lot of CBG branches on honesty team in Circenting this and good culture. He's now at meetings on our board, but he's been an advisor since day 1. The first piece of advice he gave me was like, focus on velocity. Don't worry about door count. Just like crush the velocity story. If you crush velocity, you're gonna open up. The doors will open for you.

2 - 00:39:53
And so

1 - 00:40:02
founder, operator. Listen to that 17 times. Sorry to cut you off, Nick.

2 - 00:40:07
But, you know, and that and that was that was like our north star from day 1. And that was part 1. So we were, like, hyper focused on we were in store meeting the buyers, like, you know, making sure that products on shelf, merchandise look good. Like, all the blocking and tackling of just like performing at retail. And that was like really like what I think opened up again, like, the the the all that set of doors that came behind it. I think that was, like, a big driver.

0 - 00:40:33
Before we pivot to other doors, the looks like really, like, dive deep on velocity, like, what were you doing to drive velocity? Obviously, you get on shelf. Was it demos? Was it, you know, TPRs on shelf? Was it end caps? Like, what did you do to drive velocity once you acquire that 1st route of distribution?

2 - 00:40:48
You know, for us, luckily, we had, like, an established brand in DC that people knew, and we had, like, there was, like, relative excitement about us then making this leap into in the retail. So for us, it was keeping product on shelf. Like, I can't tell you that number of calls, like, from my mother, like, the 1st few weeks, like, there's no product on shelf. Like, I can't get the hummus. I'm, like, angry friends and family that were texting.

0 - 00:41:09
Do you happen

2 - 00:41:10
to call and be like, there's no product? Like, what's going on? And still get those often today, and it's like, I think a lot of it's just like, again, the blocking and tackling, like, making sure products on a shelf, facings are good. You have to build a good brand block. You have good visibility in the store. So I was like, all that stuff we were really focused on. We were in the store. I spent countless hours in Whole Foods Walkins. I still do.

2 - 00:41:26
I love going Whole Foods Walkins, but We were just on TTR last week, and I was I spent, like, half of my week in Whole Foods walk ins. I I I love that, but I think that's, just being in the store, meeting the dairy buyers for us is kinda managed our department, meeting the stockers, you know, giving them swag, getting them excited about the brand, giving them coupons so they could taste product, like, all that excitement building on the store level, relationship building on the store level, like, pay dividends for us. And that first set of the first set of stores we got into.

0 - 00:41:59
Man, I as somebody who grew up, I guess, not grew up. I know this is not when I was a child, but my my Career arc, you know, started a lot in store level execution, you know, and I really appreciate the focus. You all had that laser focus on my how do you win there? And to me, like, the key takeaway, at least in the beginning, is winning your backyard, you know, like, crush your regional life. You already have an audience in DC. Yeah. I think you mentioned, like, Whole Foods Submit Atlantic brought you in first. Like, crush there.

0 - 00:42:21
Get your velocities up there so that when you do approach a national buyer, you you get strong data to say like, hey, proof of concept is here. Like, people are buying the product because it's good. They know who we are. We can we can duplicate success elsewhere before just like chasing distribution for the sake of chasing distribution. So that's huge. Also, the fact that you're like developing and cultivating relationships with the individuals who are touching your product every such a huge impact.

0 - 00:42:43
Like, something I don't think the regenerative ecosystem is focusing enough on because at the end of the day, like, you're talking about products not in stock. If you get the buyers in store and the people who are stocking your product as advocates, and they see you on a regular basis that, like, hey. Maybe we need an added extra facing or 2 to increase our holding capacity on shelf to prevent out of stocks. Like, they're gonna do that for your brain because you have that relationship. So think that's something we don't talk about enough. And it's hugely, hugely important, especially for, like, a small branch just trying to show, like, proof of concept.

2 - 00:43:21
Totally. Yeah. Tanner on our team was huge region advocate. Him and I have visited every region of Whole Foods since we went global And we've, we had, like, 30 to 40 stores per region top performing stores and and do the same thing. So we're still committed to it. I've I've fit every region now, but, North Atlantic. So yeah, we just we've we've we've kept that approach of, like, just being in the store meeting those people. Those are people that move move the product at the end of the day, like you're saying, and So that was that was always a driving force. I think, like, the first, kind of like north star, approach that, like, helped us win at retail.

1 - 00:43:59
Oh, yeah. So many people do that wrong, and it it's it's like refreshing, I think, to just remember that you can just do the blocking and tackling really well, and that's good enough. And there also is like a huge problem of bad advice. Like you got really good advice but a lot of people will tell you the opposite chase doors which is incorrect because it's just a great way to burn money and not have real tangible performance results and then not be able to raise more money. And we know how scarce money is now. And how much more of an importance people are putting on profitability. So like it's super important.

1 - 00:44:25
And I also think not just from an investor facing perspective, but when you're trying to build regenerative supply chains with farmers and with those middle market processors and people, like, you wanna sell through their product and you wanna be turning product and buying more and and doing all that and not having you for lead times. And so, we we make it sound simpler and easier than it is. I get all that and it's it's still very hard, but I think it's good to remember those fundamentals.

2 - 00:44:55
Totally. And I think part 2 of it is, like, focus on your region. Like, you're saying, Kyle, your Kyle, your backyard. I mean, we won in our backyard. Then we, like, be on, hopefully, just started testing in some secondary, some indie as, like, does this work outside of a Whole Foods? And then, like, the same approach, you know, like, relationship first, really build, get some, like, consolidation and some regional efficiency Right? Like, you're shipping product over the US. It's really difficult, especially a cold chain product. Like, it's not gonna work. That can always go pencil for early days for a small brand.

2 - 00:45:16
And so either you can, like, spend a lot of extra money and and go that route, or you can, like, build really with a regional focus. So part 2 of, like, focusing the store levels, focusing on a region level. So we went, like, hard into DC and just, like, filled out as many doors as we could in our home region first. And that was really, like, step 1 of the journey. It was, like, focused on some corridors, focused on a quarter region. And then from there, we've had the same approach as we've grown. Right? Like, I don't know, a few key retailers and do really well.

2 - 00:45:41
Where we know, like, the levers we can pull in those stores to make an impact and then, like, a few key regions. So we're starting to see, like, efficiencies on the upside as well of, like, actually getting product. To those regions. And I'd say like part 1 and 2 have have really helped us, manage growth. And like you're saying, a pretty tough climate. It's hard to raise money. Debt's expensive.

2 - 00:45:55
Equity markets are shifting. And so it was definitely a time where, like, you had to be a good steward of capital to, like, make it work.

0 - 00:46:11
Shoot. Totally, man. Sure.

1 - 00:46:12
How about that, Nick? Sorry. Go. Because it it is hard right now. And I think it's especially hard for a lot of regenerative brands, and you guys raise a significant amount of capital and obviously performed really well and and steward it correctly, but just expound on that a little bit because I think it's important. We we like sometimes maybe the challenges, but I I think you y'all are success. So share why that's been the case and just kinda your journey on the on the funding side.

2 - 00:46:34
Well, I'll first give you my grip, which is like, I think There is this fallacy, I think, right now in, like, American funding ecosystem where it's, like, every brand's gotta be a $100,000,000 brand. And I do think you can build, like, a really good regional $20,000,000 brand over time and have a different use of a new kind of source of capital strategy. I wish there was, like, a stronger ecosystem to make those things work, and they're coming. And I and I think, like, I believe in a lot of I hope there'll be, like, a lot more awesome $20,000,000 regional brands. And not everyone chasing the $1,000,000,000 exit. Right? Like, it doesn't his unicorn approach to CPG is just there's a lot of failure along the I I wish there'd be, like, more winners and smaller winners, but that's just sort of my one gripe with, like, the funding ecosystem as a whole.

2 - 00:47:05
You know, I think also we came, and I think 5, 6 years ago, like, the funding landscape was also very different where, like, there was a lot of equity, a lot of equity moving into CPG and moving earlier in the growth curve. So it was, like, easier to take a leap. Right? Like, you had a good pedigree and a decent idea. You could get funded for it. That's shifted a lot.

2 - 00:47:28
Right? Like, all these investors are either getting out of space altogether or moving deeper in the growth curve and, like, wanna see more markets fit. At least 5,000,000 bucks in in, like, kind of sales before they're willing to take a leap. And so it shifted for from where I sit. Like, then what I've tried to do is, like, it's not just equity. Right?

2 - 00:47:48
Like, we have to let's think about, like, how can we have a more diverse capital stack? So thinking about pulling all the levers in, like, having, you know, which, again, just insulates us from challenges. Right? Like, oh, we can't equity markets are tough when we have, like, we've built an interesting debt stack that can also core.

1 - 00:48:05
We're

2 - 00:48:05
looking at pursuing grand opportunity. Like does the USDA have dollars out there that can support us if we make this agriculture story a big part of our brand? So think for us, we've tried to just, like, diversify capital stack. Now at the end of the day, however creative you can be, reality is is you need to convince equity to to invest to make these things where they are pretty cash intensive. And again, once you do start to scale, like, you do have to spend against it to perform, at scale. And so I'd say, like, there is this unlock of of equity that is necessary. But I think, like, getting further along in the curve, and not just taking the money because also with the money comes demands of growth. And then when you get on that that treadmill of, like, you're just chasing growth. And it's a steep curve. It's pretty easy to start burning capital.

2 - 00:48:42
And then you're you're either like, you're you're at really at the helm of the equity markets. Can you raise more or are you gonna tap out? And so, again, I think early, smarter, strategic, slower growth, and then bringing in, like, equity at the right moment, I think it's the recipe. Now I can't say I figured it all out. Like, I'm I'm still early in the journey too. And, you know, I'd say, like, the thing that keeps me up at night the most is is paying for it all. Right?

2 - 00:49:08
It's like, it's hard out here to raise money. We've had some early successes. We are in good accounts. We're performing pretty well. And, like, I'm very encouraged, but it's still a really tough climate. So and capital is expensive.

2 - 00:49:18
So definitely, you know, even from where we sit, which I've got, like, very privileged to sit there right now, it's, it's still hard and it's still still a thing that keeps me up. And I post. So you're not you're not alone at all all the founders out there. I mean, it's definitely the the hardest part of the business. No doubt.

0 - 00:49:41
I super appreciate that share. If somebody who, like, AC is the finance, wizard of the 2 of us were by by a wide margin, So that was that was a lot of learning from me. I really appreciate that. I did wanna use an analogy earlier. There's a podcast I listened to a while back about the Japanese free World War 2 and during World War 2, how they were able to dominate the Pacific. And this might seem like a totally off top tangid that I'm going down, but I could not help but think about, like, building a brand in conquering territory. Like, it's almost like a warfare of mindset you have to have.

0 - 00:50:12
And, like, You don't want to overextend yourself and be caught trying to resupply these, like, fronts, these lines where you're trying to gain and grow distribution. And losing out on efficiencies because you're shipping products across the country in very small quantities. You know what I mean? So to your point, like, you you have to raise all this money, and then you have to use it the right way. And I keep love how you keep coming back to this, like, start small, like, grow regionally, experiment, and go from there. You know what I mean?

0 - 00:50:31
Improve success, and that's the best way to spend. The money that is so hard to raise in the first place. Right? So, again, just wanna bring it back to that because I think that's like another thing that our our community can listen to and learn from because it's it seems to be working really well for those.

2 - 00:50:52
Totally. And I think third part of that success, I think, is, like, build the brand block, which is hard to do. Right? You get, like, you might get a chance at Kroger out of the gate. Right? Like, they might it might a product might be interesting to make money, like, one facing, one SKU, heart cell. Right? Like Yeah.

0 - 00:51:06
It's

2 - 00:51:06
gonna be tough to make it work. And I'd say, like, that's the 3rd piece for us that we really focused on. We got advice from it was actually the former CEO of Sabra's gotta Tollman, and he was like, Brand Block is everything. Like, that's why Sabra won, and that's why that's the power of, like, build a strong Brand Block. Be be present on shelf. Like, that visibility and story is the biggest driver. That's your biggest marketing tool is, like, just being seen on shelf. And so that was been, like, the 3rd focus.

2 - 00:51:22
And that only happens if you're like, focused on key doors and adding SKUs in those doors and building that brand block, then you have a case study to go to other retailers and say, hey, look, when I got a forced SKUs in this impact that can have.

0 - 00:51:42
I love that analogy. It goes back to the war for analogy. If you're gonna send one dude to conquer a space, like, he's never gonna win on his own. You know what I mean? Right. You know, it's a brand new territory. You need to have something recognized You need to have a handful of SKUs on shelf. Which kinda brings me to another point I wanted to mention, you know, I saw a collab between Little Sesame and fly by Jing. I think it was a spicy pumpkin SKU. Which was fire, by the way.

0 - 00:51:57
Do you have any more, like, is that gonna be part of the cystectomy in the future like a seasonal rotation, like some seasonal flavors? And if so, like, based on my understanding of how retail works, like, seasonal in and outs are difficult. Like, how do you manage that if that is part of, you know, the the growth opportunity or growth strategy for level assessment moving forward.

2 - 00:52:22
We view it as like a a marketing opportunity and, and so We definitely have more coming. We have one with the DJ come in the spring. We have one with a cool Mexican brand out of New York in in summer. So, yeah, we're definitely leaning in that area. We're still in the brand brand building mode where, you know, we we can leverage other brands to help us grow and, led value to each other as we're growing. And so that was I think I was like the value of of the partnership with Jing and and fly by Jing team was like, you know, we could basically ride this thing together. For them, they're getting visibility in a high end part of the store. Right? Like, hummus, you know, sits at the edge of the store.

2 - 00:52:50
Everyone sees it, and it's driving them to, like, center store where their products, you know, a bit more varied. Right? And so was like a win for them. And for us, that's like we get to ride the all the excitement around doing and the products she built. So it was a win win. So we try to look at, like, all partnerships that way. Definitely, like, the retail economics are challenging to navigate.

2 - 00:53:07
But, again, like, in this brand building phase, it's like, we have core SKUs, and then we, like, how can we add some marketing value, creative marketing dollars, if we're breaking even on those marketing dollars. You know, it's versus like some of the shopper tactics we could spend against are just so expensive. Right? And so, it for us, it's been like a creative low cost tactic to help us kind of like expand our reach and build. So that, like, top of funnel brand awareness.

0 - 00:53:41
That's super interesting. I love it. I really desperately want you to tell me what those new seasonal flavors are gonna be, but I understand you can't. That's okay. Not too much pressure. I'm really curious to get your take on demos. You know, I I work for a bone broth company. Demo in bone broth is like one of the hardest, most cumbersome uphill battles you'll ever have to do. To me, humminess, especially when your hummus is such a beautiful texture and taste. Like, it strikes me as a potentially high ROI demo category. Have you all done demos?

0 - 00:53:58
And if so, like, how is that help? Or not.

2 - 00:54:08
Yes. No. We we we have a demo building on our demo team and that team is like 10 or 12 strong right now across the US in key markets. So we really focus app performing opens and Sprouts stores across the US.

0 - 00:54:20
Are these in house Little Sesame employees? Like, you you all are hiring and managing this team might end their full time.

2 - 00:54:26
Yeah. Not full time, but it's it's a lot of but it's an awesome I mean, all I have to do is nothing more inspiring than when I get on those calls with, like, the brand ambassadors and get them and talk me with them. It's they're, like, so fired up and to have this, like, energized group of people that I believe in Brandon. They're all around the US kinda, like, helping tell story and, honestly, nothing more energizing for me than being on those calls. And so, yeah, we built an amazing group, shout outs like Tander and Maggio. My team, we've actually, like, built that spot. And it's growing. And so we're excited.

2 - 00:54:44
We were we're gonna do upwards of a 1000 demos that hopefully exist here. Wow. Wow. So ripping demos.

0 - 00:55:00
Yeah. I

1 - 00:55:01
yeah. I like 2 things about that and the seasonal stuff. 1, the best marketing dollar is something that gets someone to try your product. Period. So like you said, even if you're like not making a ton of money on it or any money at all, it's still a breakeven or profitable like marketing expense. Which I think is which I think is huge.

2 - 00:55:21
Totally. And I guess for the retailers too, right? Like they want innovation. So it's like it's also a win win for them too. Right? Like, they and it's potentially driving a new customer to the set. Right? Like, the customer who knows the fly by Jing brand, might not be like your traditional hummus customer. So it's like, we also think about, like, how we can build products that are also, like, a win for retailers. Right? Like, I think a lot of times, it's easy to approach the relationship from retailers and, like, I want more for me and my brand. Right?

2 - 00:55:40
But it's, like, to provide how you're gonna be, like, accretive to the category. How you gonna add new dollars, new customers that set, like, that makes it a win for them and much easier, yes, to bring on the product. And so

1 - 00:55:55
And I feel like hummus is, like, food super seasonal. I would assume hummus is the same. Like, all these gathering holidays, you wanna build around that. And another business I'm invested in, they they sent out investor update and they were talking We've spent so much time and energy trying to build at the low points of seasonality when like they're gonna be low. Let's put that energy into like when dollars are flowing and just maximizing those opportunities. And so I think it's also just a beautiful example of, hey, people are gonna be already buying more hummus because they got a Christmas party or an Easter party. Let's get them to try the new seasonal SKU because yeah, they're gonna probably make room on the board that holiday for, you know, an extra thing of which is like the perfect time to add those dollars to the basket.

2 - 00:56:35
Yeah. Just just for the pitch just for the pitch. Alright. For sure.

0 - 00:56:38
Exactly. Well, that's like the trial period. Right? Because during that high season, you might acquire some new customers because that's when everybody's buying helmets, and then you could create a loyal customer who's gonna come back and buy you when it's low season. You know what I mean? So, like, to to to use next words like fish with a fish are, and then you might find the right fish is gonna end up becoming a year round customer like me because Little Sesame's bomb. I promise you a route. No. It's important. You you gotta get your gotta get your garage with beans in.

2 - 00:57:04
Well, we're here to help.

0 - 00:57:08
So I'm curious, like, future wise. What else is in the pipeline? Like, preserve lemon hummus is coming soon. I'm gonna buy some online because It's amazing. Also, for those who haven't bought Little Sesame online, do you guys still send out, like, the PETA? Like, can you buy the PETA? Yep. Yep.

2 - 00:57:21
Yep. Both on both available online arch. We just dropped our online top like, I don't know, a couple months ago. So now you can get we have a hummus club there. It's pretty cool. It's every season. We drop a new flavor available exclusively on the hummus club. It's a lot of stuff that will end up and we're kind of, like, using it as a fun testing ground and building community. People are excited about new flavor drops. So that's coming. So check it out. That's any Little Sesame.com.

2 - 00:57:37
And part of that is you get the pizza, which is which is super tasty.

0 - 00:57:46
So, yeah, the pizza, like, the pizza, I can't describe, like, a store bought pizza versus the that Little Sesame sends you when you consume the hummus. It is night and days. It's honestly, like, demeaning to call it the same word. It's that level of difference. So for those who are, like, truly passionate about hummus and or pita, like, go to E Little Sesame dot com. Get the pita. I think you warm it in the oven. Is that right, Nick? If membership's right.

2 - 00:58:09
It comes we we ship it frozen just for ease. And if you drop it right in the toaster in, like, 2 minutes, you do have a really good piece of pizza. So, yeah, I I'm I'm I'm right there with it. It is, just like in a league of its own above the store bought hummus pizza that you get. Otherwise, it's pretty, which is pretty rough out there.

0 - 00:58:26
Yeah. It's it's it's crazy. So what are some of the other, like, you you don't have to tell us all the things that are new, but what are some of the other, like, rotational flavors that the is gonna get to try that is not necessarily available to everybody else. So I'm really just asking this for me personally. I don't even care about the audience right now. So I I just need to know.

2 - 00:58:44
You know, we're just I I I kinda, like, hinted at the next couple that are coming. Right? We have one with the DJ coming in spring, and we have one with a really awesome Mexican brand. We are doing one with a mushroom brand. You probably can figure out that is in the fall. So we have 3, like, locked in in pipeline. We are dropping like a big new product for us, somewhere in the fall. It's like, you know, same same, it's still a hummus, but it's kind of age for, different demo. And so excited about that drop.

2 - 00:59:04
I can allude to that, like, you know, I'm a young dad. And so certainly have, like, feeding kids on my mind.

1 - 00:59:18
Right. Right.

2 - 00:59:19
Beyond beyond that, you know, I'll leave the rest to to be figured out, but that's coming. That's a big a big product drop for us this year. Yeah, we have we have some fun stuff coming. We, it's definitely, like, you know, Ron and I, like, are not, you know, we're still, like, chefs at our core that, like, when we're in the kitchen together, which doesn't happen enough anymore, but that we have our DNA together tomorrow, it's like the most fun we have. And so, it's really awesome to, like, get back in the kitchen and just, like, you know, spend a day cooking together and playing with things. And a lot of, a lot of fun happens there and a lot of creativity, but, you know, then it takes months and often years to actually commercialize these things that we're learning hardware and see. I get a restaurant. You, like, turn it on the next day.

2 - 00:59:59
But, we're learning that, like, the commercialization process takes time, but, again, those r and d days are the best. And so, yeah, definitely, we'll keep, like, the innovation coming, and that's, I think, that'd be a a fun differentiator from us from, like, the rest of the set is that we'll always we'll always keep it fun.

0 - 01:00:15
And you sort of, like, hijit to this, like, is the goal to stay in hummus, or is there potential to deport into other categories that might still be, like, you know, perishable dips or, like, do you see little sustenance of brand that could go, like, cross category? What do you thought?

2 - 01:00:31
Uh-huh. You know, we're we're we're we're we're down in a things. We also have a potentially new product that's kind of an adjacent sit it would sit with the hummus set, but kind of be adjacent. That might drop this spring. So, yeah, we have all we have a lot coming. We definitely are, like, pushing the envelope on innovation. And again, rode an eye on the creative side and then, like, us having self manufacturing is like, we can get product to market pretty quick. So we have that awesome relationship with some of our buyers now that's like, hey.

2 - 01:00:53
Like, we have this feedback of, like, you know, how, again, the framework always being, like, how can we add more dollars to the to the set and then working with the buyers to be, like, kinda where where can we move and grow, like, the little I mean, lie together, but hummus is hummus is like who we are at our our starting point and it's, we'll always kind of be the the centerpiece.

0 - 01:01:15
So one thing, Nick, you keep mentioning is, like, the way you're approaching these relationships at retail and it's, like, how you're bringing value to the aisle, how you're adding incremental dollars, how you're pulling center store shoppers and bringing them to hummus potentially for the first time. And I think it's really important that all of the regenerative founders who listen or any founder kind of resonates with that or or hears that message because that's how these people are being judged, right? They're they're their performance based, like, they have to deliver dollars to the category. So if you can come to them with that partnership mentality, say, hey. We wanna help you grow. Like, what can we do to work together to make this happen? Think that's a fantastic way to to continue growing your business and solidify those relationships.

2 - 01:01:53
Yeah. No. Totally. I mean, I I was lucky to go through LEAP, which is like Whole Foods Accelerator Program.

0 - 01:01:58
Yeah.

2 - 01:01:58
And I would say, like, that was one of the biggest takeaways, which is, like, so many branches come at it from a transactional perspective of, like, hey, this is what's good for my brand. Here's the here's my, like, sales case. I think, like, the winning case will always be a win win with you and the retailer. And so I think that's definitely like, I would definitely say, like, follow that approach, and it will be it will pay dividends. Totally. Yeah.

1 - 01:02:24
I wanna touch on something that, I wanted us to bring up earlier in the agronomy kind of discussion, but we just I just forgot. And It's the fact that you guys are certified USD organic, Nick, but you have not done any of the regenerative search yet. So I'm curious to get your thoughts on that. I know I know Casey had some interesting opinions, but he wasn't able to share with the, them with us, unfortunately, so you can speak on his behalf. But I think I I wanna just give a nod to organic hummus, like, even before we talk regenerative because the, you know, EWP did this did this, study of glyphosate in hummus in 2020, I believe. And the numbers are pretty staggering. Okay. I have it pulled up, and I'm just gonna read it off.

1 - 01:03:02
More than 90% of the conventional hummus had detectable levels of glyphosate over 1 third of the samples tested exceeded their benchmark of what is considered safe for daily consumption. And one sample had fifteen times the amount of recommended daily consumption. So just ridiculous. And we even know that some organic product is getting glyphosate traces in it because of from other farm fields. And we know a lot of conventional farmers are spraying glyphosate on chickpeas as a desiccant to kill and kinda dry the crop at the end of the season. So I would love to hear you just speak to like why organic is so important with that table setting and then how you guys have looked at the regenerative certifications today.

2 - 01:03:43
Yes. I mean, I think the death against the story is also an interesting one because, like, it's in I think no one really knows that about chickpeas is that, not only are they used you know, they're they're spraying chemicals throughout the growing process. And glyphosate is like, you know, whatever it's a word, but it's cancer causing it. It's that's pretty proven at this point. So I think, like, you know, the other thing is that then they're spraying on it again right before it's harvested to kill the plant. And so it's a lot more work for the farmers to as Casey does, to kinda go through and, and harvest without having to spray it before. So It's definitely worked. There's that, like, investment of of labor hours into the into the product that definitely is, you know, in swapping and then collecting the dried plant.

2 - 01:04:15
But So there's definitely, like, an investment there, but, again, I think it was a very worthwhile one. And, so that's we we can stand behind that in, like, our product, and there isn't you know, we're going through some extra search in terms of, like, actual chemical analysis of product, but I'd probably say, like, we can you know, constantly say that, like, our product is is clean all the way through and, which is a big differentiator. And so I'd say on the second piece in terms of regen, know, we're navigating what that means, like, in terms of, like, a region. Certain, I think it's, you know, the pros and cons of the relationship with, like, a single farmer is that, like, you know, it I trust him a lot in, like, sort of his instincts and, like, what's best for the farmers. And, right, like, a lot of the labeling inserts are good for consumers. Right?

2 - 01:05:03
They give us, like, a clear guideline if we if we kind of in a in an educational tool really be like, okay. This is organic and this is what organic means. And now we could do the same come behind it with a regenerative. This is regenerative. This is what it means. And you can trust that this certifying body proved it, like, I had to say that what I've learned along the way is, like, I'm impressed with, like, the level of of scrutiny that, like, we get with our organic certs.

2 - 01:05:20
Right? They're doing the diligence and the hard work to actually prove out that our supply chain is is is legitimate. So that's, like, one thing I I probably, like, went into it, like, a little bit conspiracy there. So, like, I'm not how how good can organically be, but I'd say, like, the certified bodies are are doing a good job out there. So I think, like, consumers can have a pretty high level of trust that if it exists. Now I do think regenerative is different.

2 - 01:05:45
It's also hard to really, like, define in specific terms because it's not, like, organic where it's, like, the parameter is really clear. Right? I think, like, what the cool thing is is, like, the experimental side of regenerative, which is it's more of like a template and a framework of thinking about farming than it is like a a coated system. Farming. So I think and that would be Casey's, I think, we'll speak for it, but my guess is something along those lines would be, like, kinda, like, retort to, like, why he's necessarily, you know, hesitant to, like, go down the path of, right now, a region cert where it's so early, like, us under standing what region can be and how we define it. And so, you know, I but I understand again, I'd sell both sides where it's like, I understand the value of a consumer and hope it would be like, is this regenerative or electronic certified?

2 - 01:06:28
But also wanna make sure that, like, it's a win win for farmers. And I think, you know, ROC is doing a good job with it. Right? Like, they're getting brands to pay versus farmers to pay. I think there's a win there. Yeah.

2 - 01:06:42
But I think it's just gonna take time to really understand, like, try to, like, us coming together to find what regen means in finding a way to, like, apply that to farms. That's that's reasonable, not too cumbersome, and does it make them do things that are gonna, like, actually make things worse? And so, you know, I think that's the challenge of all these especially as they come up for, like, commercial purposes is they can often be, like, interpreted in bad ways that can have negative impact. So, yeah. Hope is that ROC doesn't land there, and we're doing all the search can can figure out a way to, like, kind of, like, model the, the creativity of what pharmover generatively means. Yeah.

1 - 01:07:21
A lot of nuance, a lot of layers. And that is the essence of regenerative. And so if we if we don't embrace that, I think that's a really big mess. And so I want things to have the utmost integrity and I want things to really mean something and I want this to not get green washed into oblivion, but I also want us to not make sure we totally erode the entire essence of why we need to do it in the first place, which is we have to have that nuance and that flexibility in this path and this incremental, you know, progress over perfection mentality.

0 - 01:07:54
Yeah. You know, I think, you know, Regina's all about continual improvement. Right? And what I really like about this, again, very human, very personal story with Casey is, like, you know, organic is defined by a set of inputs that you can or cannot do. And if we apply that same sort of methodology to a regenerative certification, my Casey may not be able to experiment the way he wants to experiment to try do its best for the land so he can continue to improve time over time. Whereas a certification almost feels like you have achieved and now you don't need to continue to experiment, and I'm just reading between the lines. I don't know, Casey. This is what I'm gathering from the conversation. Like, he might feel hamstrung or constrained by his ability to be the farmer.

0 - 01:08:23
He wants to be because he now has to reach this, like, criteria set by a third party who isn't on his farm every day like he is, you know, so again, really appreciate that personal human story because I I also agree. Like, from a commercialization standpoint, it makes it easy for consumers to say cool. Like, I wanna support our gender product. This makes my life easy. I don't have to research every single product in a category. But we do need to, like, unfortunately continue to live in this weird nuance Wild West space right now where we're still trying to figure out the right way to do this and to commercialized regen because, to me, I think there's a lot of great effort out there Way.

0 - 01:08:50
But there's no perfect way.

1 - 01:09:05
Exactly. So that's the key. It's like, it's not the right way. The right ways. And I think we have to continue to embrace that because there is no run right. There is no one right way or it totally violates the entire point of this whole thing. Totally agree.

2 - 01:09:19
Hallelujah.

1 - 01:09:23
Nick, I'll take us home with the final question, man. Excited to get your thoughts on it. Which is how do we get regen brands to have 50% market share by 2050?

2 - 01:09:33
I think relationships first. You know, I think the same I think the we've gone back to the time and time again here. Right? Like, I think that's gonna power brands to be successful. You know, I think both upstream with farmers and downstream with retailers, like, I think it's just the relationship first. Because I think that's, like, what this whole movement is really about. Right? Like, it is back to that conversation of, like, how do we how do we connect across the aisle? Like, what's, like, a human thing that can really, like, drive us and these, like, big cultural shifts that happen over time and societies are driven by the people. Right?

2 - 01:09:58
Like, and we are the ones that control the market forces. And so I think if we get, people to feel ownership of it from both sides. I think, like, we can start to see consumer shift and then agriculture shift behind then. So I'm a believer that it's gonna be gonna be the people that do it. And, that's, like, one person at a time, you know, having honest conversations and food is a great tool to have those conversations around and hummus is a a perfect, even better one to do it with. And, you know, dig into a plan of hummus and have these conversations, and I think, like, we can start to see some real shifts.

0 - 01:10:36
Man, very similar to your commercial strategy. You know, start small, winning your backyard, one relationship at a time, and that's how you create that meaningful, change. You know, otherwise, you know, I I think you're spot on it. We're not gonna be able to change everybody at one time. There's not gonna be a one singular campaign or moment that's got everybody seems like, oh, I understand region. Now wanna buy a gender of brands. Like, that's never gonna happen. So I I really like your answer. I don't think we've ever had an answer like that before on the pod.

0 - 01:10:55
And I think it's a great perspective.

1 - 01:11:04
Hey, man. Agree. Appreciate you joining us, brother. This is amazing. Lots of really cool stuff that y'all are doing. It seems like you're really doing it the right way. So just appreciate your leadership. Appreciate you joining us, and, just keep kicking ass, man.

2 - 01:11:18
No. Right back at you guys. Thanks for your leadership. Thanks for building this thing and giving me an opportunity to tell my story. And, yeah, we'll we'll we'll we'll keep fighting a good fight and Let's, we'll see it expo.

0 - 01:11:29
Sounds good. One last reminder for anybody listening, eat littlesesame dot com. Go check it out. Can't wait to sign up for the hummus club.

2 - 01:11:37
Let's go. Thank you guys. Appreciate it.

1 - 01:11:39
Thanks, Nick.

3 - 01:11:44
For show notes, episode transcripts and more information on our guests and what we discuss in the show, check out our website regen-brands.com. That is regen-brands.com. You can also find our regen recaps on the website. Regen recaps take less than 5 minutes to read and cover all the key points of the full hour long conversations. You can check out our YouTube channel, regen brands podcast, all of our episodes to future episodes and share the show with your friends. Thanks for tuning into The ReGen Brands Podcast, brought to you by the Regen Coalition in Outlaw Ventures. We hope you learned something new in this episode, and it empowers you to use your voice, your time, and your dollars to help us build a better and more regenerative food system. Love you guys.