#77 - Jacob Muise @ Maui Nui Venison

Episode Recap:

ReGen Brands Recap #77 - Managing Maui’s Invasive Axis Deer For Regenerative Outcomes - (RECAP LINK)

Episode Transcript:

Disclaimer: This transcript was generated with AI and is not 100% accurate.

Kyle Krull - 00:00:16
Welcome to The ReGen Brands Podcast. This is a place for consumers, operators, and investors to learn about the consumer brands, supporting regenerative agriculture, and how they're changing the world. This is your host, Kyle. Joined by my co-host, AC, who's going to take us into the episode.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:00:34
On this episode, we have Jacob Muise, who is a co founder and the CEO of Maui Nui Venison. Maui Nui Venison is supporting regenerative agriculture with its lineup of venison products made from wild harvesting the invasive axis deer population on the island of Maui. Maui Nui Venison is the most nutrient rich and protein dense red meat on the planet. They're stress free, wild harvesting methods ethically and responsibly man the invasive axis deer to your population of Maui in an effort to restore ecological balance to the island. In this episode, We learned how Jake went from surfing the frosty waters off of Nova Scotia to the warm waters of Hawaii. The ecological imperative for managing the axis deer population in Hawaii and how Jake turned his obsession for axis deer to your into the powerhouse brand that Maui Nui is to net Now look, this is a little outside of the box application of the term regenerative agriculture, and that may not fly for some of you purists out there. But guess what? We don't really care because Maui Nui's outcomes in terms of ecological benefit, human nutrition, and community benefit are unquestionably regenerative.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:01:33
And this is the first of 2 episodes in a row where we feature a brand with a nuanced take on regen somewhat outside of the norm. And the word on the street is There are multiple top secret reveals buried deep in this episode. So I think you'll wanna listen until the very end. Let's ride. What's up, everybody? Welcome back to another episode of The ReGen Brands Podcast. Very excited today to have our friend Jake from Maui Nui Venison with us. So welcome, Jake.

Jacob Muise - 00:02:10
Pleasure to be here, guys.

Kyle Krull - 00:02:12
We're super stoked, and I don't wanna dismiss anybody else. Like, we're stoked to talk to all the regenerative brands, but ACI are both, like, super, super stoked. Talk to you for a variety of reasons that we're gonna get into. But before I steal any thunder, Jake, you know, like, give us a quick lay of the land. Like, for those who are unfamiliar with Maui Nui, what do you produce or or or make and where can people find your products today?

Jacob Muise - 00:02:37
We harvest invasive axis deer on the island of Maui. We turn that into food for customers and community that you can find, here locally, but also direct to consumer via the website at mowingauvennison.com.

Kyle Krull - 00:02:53
Awesome. Before we get too far into the origin story, if you had to choose 1 Maui Nui product that you said you was favorite or for somebody to try for the first time, what would that product be?

Jacob Muise - 00:03:04
Our our our pepper venison stick is, like, one of those things that I just had this conversation with our our team this morning is like, I think it's gonna be our Ariel cookie. Like, It's something that's gonna live for the next 30 years that you're never gonna have to change the flavor. Like, it's just something that you can eat nonstop. So, yeah, I mean, that never stick for sure.

Kyle Krull - 00:03:28
Jay, I gotta push back. I don't wanna start with the fight, but I never wanna fall. I love I love the pepper stick. I think it's fantastic. But I think the original with just, like, the two grams of sugar is, like, so well balanced. I actually just had 2 more buddies up, and I was like, you guys have to try this meat I had them try the peppered first and like, wow, this is really good. And then I had them try the original and they're like, holy shit. This is amazing. So just just that's the only three people's opinions, but I think the original is really the it's it's the way to go for me.

Jacob Muise - 00:04:00
Yeah. You start with those sticks either way. It's the greatest, like, penicin. Are you sure? And then, like, you hand them a stick and they're like, oh, wait a second. Like, Yeah. I can do this. Yeah.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:04:10
Yeah. The the products are phenomenal. And if anyone hasn't tried them, we definitely recommend that. I got a sampler box not too long ago for the first time. And I was like, wow. This is this is very legit. And I'm actually in due for a reorder. So I gotta take care of that after we we get done with this recording. But, Jake, this is kind of a this is a unique first for us because it's, I would say, atypical region or beyond region or, you know, it's a little bit outside of your typical production agriculture mandate, but I think when we think about the principles over generation and the outcomes we're seeking, it's very much aligned and accomplishing that and maybe even going beyond that, you know, depending on your opinion. So super excited to kinda give folks that peek behind the curtain of that, from a brand perspective, but also from, like, how the hell did you build a business out of you know, harvesting these animals that are not easy to harvest and have a ton of epoxy around them.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:04:50
But, you know, you're not native to Hawaii. You have a really cool kind of personal journey coming there. There's a very interesting backstory to the axis deer population in Hawaii. There's the the story of the brand. So I don't even know where to start, but maybe start with with kinda how you got there and how you got acquainted with with this this problem, so to speak, locally.

Jacob Muise - 00:05:26
Yeah. Happy to. Oh, very long story short. Was lucky enough to get asked to play, division 1 sports, at the University of Hawaii. But grew up in a subsistence hunting family, in Northern Canada and and also on, like, the East Coast of Nova Scotia, learned earth on the East Coast and Nova Scotia and, like, the early nineties when nobody when no nobody, like, nobody was doing We were, like, buying gold.

Kyle Krull - 00:05:53
When wet suit technology was not what it is today.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:05:56
Yeah. What water temps are we talking here?

Jacob Muise - 00:05:59
You're talking like I remember on every winter, like, it's slushing over in the bays. Like, Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I remember, like, my dad's rule was when you couldn't feel your fingers and toes, like, you had to get out. Like, I, you know, yeah, but not not how I'd recommend for my kids these days. But, anyway, to their credit, I went on my recruiting trip to Hawaii and they handed me my first, like, real pair of boards charts. And when you're from Canada, like, everything still had the old school lining in it, I remember, like, grabbing that. You guys remember that old lining. Right?

Kyle Krull - 00:06:43
Oh, yeah. Remember, like, I we're white fishnet stuff. Yes.

Jacob Muise - 00:06:47
Yeah. I remember grabbing the pair of shorts and being like, Where's the liner? Like, I was so confused. I had no idea what to do. It's air shorts that had no liner. So, anyway, no liner, no wet suit. And the first thing he did is, like because they knew I was a surfer. They took me, like, straight to Alamana Bulls, which is, like, right in front of the university. And I was like, and where do I sign? Like, what do you guys want me to do?

Jacob Muise - 00:07:10
But other other great, mistake accident that happened is they accidentally, screwed up my dorm assignment, and they put me in the dorm with all of the Hawaiian kids that didn't have good enough grades that had to come to summer school from Molokuddy, from this small island. Wow. So it was like this very amazing group of guys and girls, and I was, like, like, I I call myself a muggle, but, like, I was, like, the the one white guy stuck in this, like, giant brown dormitory. Nothing, like, scared shitless for the first 10 minutes. Nothing better in my whole life could have happened to me. That that true saying of, like, a lot of spirit, like, it lives. It's real. They're just like, well, if you're here, we're gonna take care of you.

Jacob Muise - 00:07:57
And they just, like, it took like, took such extraordinary care of me, including, at that point, my family was on the East Coast of Canada and Nova Scotia. So it was way too far to travel for, like, I mean, anything, Christmas or anything. So that my roommate in that family adopted me, the they denied me. And so I started going over to Malachi, which I didn't know, but had a established herd of axis deer, and growing up in a subsistence community. You guys have probably heard this. Like, Canadians are nice folks, and they're pretty polite. And they're, like, at least some of them.

Jacob Muise - 00:08:31
Small island mola cut you felt a lot like home. I Everybody everybody was, like, eating something they hunted or fish that community shared. There was anybody hungry. Everybody was polite. Everybody waved at each other. So, like, I was so fortunate to get a home away from home.

Jacob Muise - 00:08:51
And that was my original understanding of deer from, like, a recreational subsistence level, and then it just grew in understanding the more I was there and the more I learned, for sure.

Kyle Krull - 00:09:11
Quick question. Like, how did the deer get to the islands in the first place?

Jacob Muise - 00:09:15
K. Great question. So, well, so islands. So there's 3 deer. There's 3 islands in Hawaii right now that have deer on them, Molokahi, Lanai, and Maui. So we only operate on Maui. But in the in 1868, two bucks and 5 does were brought in for Kamehameha the 5th, and they, like, My wife translates to my newspaper. So she's able to collect all this amazing information. They kit like, they came down the Ganji's river on India, like, via India, the boat was named like the Lochnagar. Like, they have all of it, but, like, long story short, they went to. And then a kapu So a couple is a restriction.

Jacob Muise - 00:09:50
It's a name, it's a Hawaiian name for, like, a restriction. A couple was placed on them, and So this is 18 68. And as early as 1909, just to give you guys some context, as early as 1909, they brought in no. As early as 18 98, they brought in California shooters, and they shot 7000 deer in a few months in 18 98. So 30 years.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:10:27
Right.

Jacob Muise - 00:10:27
So in 30 years, they went from, like, count. 70 or 2 there being, like, a substantial problem because I remember I remember cool. My wife's showing me newspapers from, like, the 18 I think it was, like, 1894. There were already newspaper articles. Citing, like, locals being concerned about the deer filling the forest and, like, decimating them. So, like, so deer get molakai are mostly get deer in the late 1800s. They are they rapidly expand, fun Fun fact, Akastero, one of the few deer species in the world that can breed year round. When an elk mule deer, you know, when they cast their antler, when that antler falls off every year, their testosterone levels drop. Low enough that their sperm isn't viable.

Jacob Muise - 00:11:05
That's why you have these really pronounced rut periods for elk and these other animals. So axis deer, even after they drop their antlers, testosterone levels stay high enough that sperm is viable year rounds, I. E. They can, anytime a dog goes into extras, they're able to, like, breed and impregnate that bill. So that's why you see such prolific growth rates. A great a kind of great segue there is, well, a, deer go to another small island in the 19 twenties, quickly reach, you know, kind of the maximum number there as well too.

Jacob Muise - 00:11:38
But in 1959, 1960, the territorial board of ag, essentially after a very long back and forth, they introduce them to Maui, guaranteeing that they won't get out of control. Yeah. Right? To bring you guys back to the difference. At the same time, black tailed deer were introduced to Kauai, which is another island, and you can still barely find the black tailed deer. Wow.

Jacob Muise - 00:12:08
So it's it's it's piece like the problem a lot of what we'll talk about today is, like, very, very unique in scenario situation, like, species. This is a very unique scenario because of the species. So, yeah, long story short there, late 1800s on the Molokai, 1920s. They're all on that. And then 1959, 1960, they come to Maui. And from the sixties till now, even though, you know, we've harvested 50,000 plus animals, you know, already, there's currently about 70,000 but maximum capacity on I, like, on Maui is looking like 210 to 220,000 animals on only like 465,000 acres.

Jacob Muise - 00:12:45
Right. So, yeah. Very unique species in a very unique place that is resulting in a unique problem, but ultimately product as well. Which we, I'm sure we'll talk about.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:13:24
Yeah. And you you touched on, basically, the the males and the females can mate much more than a vehicle deer. And I think I've heard you say on other podcasts and in other places, there's no natural predators in Hawaii. Yep. And this this breed of deer also developed in the jungles of India, you know, getting away from, you know, big jungle felines and places like that, things like that, that it's much more hard to kill, so to speak. Right? It's like those 3 big things contribute to the resiliency.

Jacob Muise - 00:13:53
Hard to kill, but also much more adaptable. So If, as this pop as the population was growing here, what they do so well is they find safe places. And if there's enough food and water in that safe place, they just stay, they won't range if they don't need to. So they're highly, highly adaptable, not having developed, like, migratory, like, traits like a mule deer moving from, like, the melt into the flat. So, like, so if it's like, I've got food. I've got water. I safe here. They'll stay in and they find these safe places.

Jacob Muise - 00:14:18
They're able to grow until essentially, like, they've eaten themselves out of house and home, and they have to, like, move out into these other areas. So highly adaptable which is part of the issue as well.

Kyle Krull - 00:14:35
That all makes sense. And this is so interesting to hear all this backstory. I didn't have all these details before, and it almost feels fate. You know, you happen to grow up on the east coast of Canada happen to be one of, I would assume, very few surfers at that time happen to move to Hawaii. And there happens to be this invasive deer species and you are a 100 from Canada. Right? Yeah.

Kyle Krull - 00:14:49
So now that we

Jacob Muise - 00:14:54
have all of

Kyle Krull - 00:14:57
this context, like, when did this axis deer to your population? You mentioned your your first exposure, in college, you know, go into some of the, your classmates' families, you know, places in learning about their subsistence, subsistence relationship with, you know, the fish and the deer and like that. When was this first kind of put on your radar in some sort of a capacity. It was like, this is a problem that we actually need to solve for, and you want to get involved and try to do something to help.

Jacob Muise - 00:15:22
Yeah. So lucky that the introduction was through the lens of value or like them being an asset to community because it really has dictated a lot of our management strategies. But for the 1st several years, it was only like for for me personally and for that family, like, it was a valuable. It was valuable. It was valuable. It was valuable to community. And then I think it was my 3rd or 4th year of college.

Jacob Muise - 00:15:42
We were going back as we always did to, like, fill up the dorm, small, little dorm freezer. So you didn't have to eat the cafeteria food. And molecule had been through a period of pronounced drought, and we went to, like, our regular hunting area, come around the corner. I could see them from, like, a 150 yards away, like, in their spot. And I'm like, oh, awesome. They're there.

Jacob Muise - 00:16:02
And then as we're getting closer and they're not moving, I'm just like, oh, this this is gonna be great. And then all of a sudden, started to recognize, like, a lot less general movement in the herd. And I was like, what's happening? And I can, like, remember this. Like, I have, like, a picture perfect memory of this. And I got that odd sense that something was wrong and realized after walking closer that there was about a 152 100 animals that were basically laying down, dying starvation and malnutrition.

Jacob Muise - 00:16:24
Wow. So so this so this is like crazy realization. I still can remember it and feel it. I mean, like, what? Like, hey, I couldn't harvest 1. They weren't gonna be healthy enough to eat. It wasn't even, like, hardly any meat on them.

Jacob Muise - 00:16:48
And then, b, I remember being with, like, my best friend being like, this this is how it works. And he's like, yeah, every, This is what happens. Every 10 or 15 years, they'll they'll produce so many offspring, population will boom, and the only thing that, like, can reset that is Like, they don't have enough to eat, right, and that gets more pronounced with drought. And I was just like this gut wrenching realization for me that I'm like, this cannot be this cannot be how we are treating a resource that is so valuable to community. Like, this can't be the default management mechanism. And that and that was like that was that entrepreneurial trigger for me where Like, I remember coming over from that trip and just starting to, like, read everything.

Jacob Muise - 00:17:29
I could figure everything. Like, it went from It went from a food relationship to, like, a full blown obsession with species insulate to, like, how how are we gonna, do this. And this is 2003. This is 20 years ago.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:17:56
Did didn't you, like, start the axis deer institute. So if you want to actually give you information, because they Yes.

Jacob Muise - 00:18:02
Before you did that. So a a rational impression turned into, like, whole lifestyle, I. E. My capstone class in

Kyle Krull - 00:18:11
Mhmm.

Jacob Muise - 00:18:11
College wrote a massive business plan, making the New Zealand model of, like, domestication habituation. But as I was trying to collect species information, nobody. The only information was out of India, and nobody would answer me. So literally overnight, I just need a fake logo made myself executive director with the I mean, put the logo on the bottom line, and the very first email I sent there, like, Oh, it's amazing. Somebody's working on this issue in Hawaii.

Kyle Krull - 00:18:41
I'm like, yeah.

Jacob Muise - 00:18:42
It's like, yeah. It's like, that was before pubmed and everything Right? So instantly have access to tons of species specific information to help make some some I wasn't even able to make decisions at that point. And turns out, 1, the business plan competition through the capstone class was completely wrong.

Kyle Krull - 00:19:05
Yeah.

Jacob Muise - 00:19:06
The, like, domestication and habituation of axis deer is, like, literally impossible at scale. They're one of the few deer species You can give them, like, 5th generation bottle fed. I've tried. You can get them 5th generation bottle fed. And if you get them in a herd of more than 6 to 7, they will, like, insilly revert back to, like, wild, uninhabituated behavior, and that's not the case for elk and red deer and a bunch of other ones. So, yeah, irrational obsession 20 years ago turned into, yeah, lots of work around it.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:19:40
T tactical question on, like, the the over grazing or overeating issue? Like, what are they the any any green plant? They, you know, grasses and weeds and and tree? Like, what what are they eating?

Jacob Muise - 00:19:53
Primarily grasses. Yeah. So primarily grasses to about 90%. They can they can survive essentially on anything. Really cool. We've done 2 satellite telemetry video caller studies where you get a caller on them with video So you can watch what they eat. And then we have ruined sample and then we have ruined samples essentially every night because we process tripe, we're looking in there every night to see what they're eating. So it's primarily grasses, but what's really interesting is they're fringe grazers So they'll take a pasture, and it will gradually transition that pasture from grass into, like, weeds or invasive tree species because they're eating the edge of the passers down so hard. That they're allowing seed banks of invasives to, like, pop up. But, they they certainly do better than other species. I they'll eat anything, but their preferences for sheer grass.

Jacob Muise - 00:20:39
And this will point to, like, nutrient density later, but they will hop a six eight foot fence to eat grass or a legume or something on the other side because, like, that's what they wanna eat. They are also, because of the abundance of food on these islands, they get to be very selective when there's a lot of feed. So they're highly, highly intelligent grazers, but can survive on anything, essentially.

Kyle Krull - 00:21:19
Incredible. You know, I I wanna revert back to, like, that picture perfect moment you had, or I guess not picture perfect picture imperfect that that memory you shared so eloquently. And what I love most about it is you're going to hunt these animals and it is empathy for the herd that is sparking your desire to want to make a change. I just felt like that was pretty unique and really appreciate that story. Gonna try to figure out how we fast forward through this portion because there's gotta be a ton of meat and, no no pun intended. Right? Yeah.

Kyle Krull - 00:21:41
Like, how do you go from this concept of like, okay. We need to figure out how we call the herd strategically to essentially introduce a mock predator to control the per the population, and you need to turn that into a business. You know, venison is not necessarily like a commercially I don't wanna say viable, but, you know, it's not a commercially accepted meat. Right? It's not beef. It's not pork.

Kyle Krull - 00:22:01
It's not chicken. So how do you go from like, okay. I need to do this to create a business that actually works and works as well as you've managed to to make Mountain Dewey work?

Jacob Muise - 00:22:22
Yeah. Okay. I'm gonna give you guys the the, like, really quick here. So axis deer Institute allowed us to be the perceived expert.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:22:32
Yeah.

Jacob Muise - 00:22:35
4 to 4 deer get introduced to the big island, which we talked about earlier, don't have any deer. Huge invasive species issues. We were the perceived expert at the time. So we got the contract to find and remove them in a 100,000 square air square mile area. We had no idea where they were. So far. We hunted There's a 3 year project we hunted every day about Sunday. It took us 7 months to find the first one.

Jacob Muise - 00:23:01
And the Awesome story, but the long story short there is there are very, very few invasive species projects in Hawaii because everything here proliferate so well that are actually successful. But in a three and a half year period, we found and removed all of them in the process developing still the best mammal survey technology that we know of. And the combination of that success and that technology and system open, like, allowed us to continue to be the expert, and then we got an invitation from somebody on Maui that said like, hey. If you can do that, you can come over here and just shoot these things for us. And I had always I had, like, been doing research on how to turn them into food, and the densities on Maui were high enough that, like, that was an opportunity, and and walking into that very few meeting meeting with that ratcher that they were calling them spotted rats. But remember, I started from a place of of value. Right? So that was the 14 years ago.

Jacob Muise - 00:24:01
That was the start of turning it into food was like we were on we were on Maui after establishing herself as the expert we had a contract that was, like, large enough to, like, harvest enough deer. And that was the first phone call to the USDA. Like, hey, I have an opportunity to do this. Can we? There was a lot of phone calls after that. There's a A question.

Kyle Krull - 00:24:34
What what was the UAC's first response? Like, dude, what do you no way? Like, what's that first response like?

Jacob Muise - 00:24:40
That's exactly what the response was. They're like, no. They're like, here's all the FS IRS rules. Like, do your research. You can't do it, etcetera. Like, It was no. No. No. No. And there had been established rules for anti mortem inspection, I. E. Like, the process of of rendering.

Jacob Muise - 00:24:49
You guys probably recognize this with, like, Buffalo Bison, Elk. Like, there was USDA rules for the the field harvesting of a species, I. E. They're, like, outside in a pan, like, that had existed. But what we were asking to do at night with forward looking infrared without pending them, like, that whole process, they were just, like, that's not happening. Before we go

Kyle Krull - 00:25:19
too much further, let let the viewers who are non as well versed in, you know, some of the CAA regulations, like, why is it so hard to commercially sell a wild animal? Great.

Jacob Muise - 00:25:32
Okay. So 22 big things there. 1, legally, in almost every state, That animal belongs to the public, I. E. It is held in public trust, like an elk in Montana. Like, that belongs to the public managed by the state. It is illegal to commercially harvest that or, like, you you're not allowed to sell that animal for for meat. Right? In Hawaii, which the only native mammals are like, the biggest native mammal is like a bat this big. In Hawaii, an invasive species, an invasive mammal on private property is the ownership and liability of the land owner.

Jacob Muise - 00:26:08
So that's like the mechanism number 1 of, like, why this is possible. The mechanism number 2 is The USDA has the rules in place for field anti mortem or, like, field harvesting But we had to show them we could follow all of the rules that usually happen, like, in a pen, IE, being able to view that animal prior to harvesting, making sure It's not injured. It's could it's potentially safe to eat, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera, like, this giant book that is the the FSAS, like, meat inspection act, we had to show them we could do all of those things in the field at night without penning that animal. So when you call them and you say, like, we can do this. Yeah. They say, and more importantly, what they were most concerned with, is the rendering rate, I when an animal is killed in a facility, that typically looks like I'm sure you guys have been in a meat facility, like, They're coming into a meat facility through a chute system, typically, into a press.

Jacob Muise - 00:27:05
Their head is stuck. And the expectation in a building with that animal fully held down is like a 99% rendering efficiency. So we had to meet that same render for

Anthony Corsaro - 00:27:39
For people that don't know what that means, that means killing the animal usually shooting in the head. And and, yeah, that that being effective 99% of the time from a humane perspective. Yeah.

Jacob Muise - 00:27:49
That's regarding that. Yeah. So the USDA anti mortem process. Like, their primary responsibility is to make sure that animal is is killed humanely. And so when we said, We think we can do that in the field. They were just like, no. You can't. So

Anthony Corsaro - 00:28:09
because there's also a shot clock to get the animal back and actually process it, right, once the once it's been

Jacob Muise - 00:28:15
Yeah. This could be, like, a 2 hour on how, like, integrating what we do and really so long story short, we were able finally got somebody at the USDA, but, like, you know what? I'll come fine. If if it doesn't work, you're going away. Right? This is after, like, years of phone calls, not months, years. And Like, I, I still remember, like, his face in the morning when the sun came up. He was just like, what did I just see?

Jacob Muise - 00:28:41
Cause we had been practicing. We've been practicing nonstop, and we originally started with pet food because pet food doesn't require USDA inspection. So we're able to hone all of our skills around pet food and innations to community. And by the time he came, we were ready. And then he was like, Yep. And to your guys credit, the next step, I e, like, the processing stage, he's like, so you can accomplish anti mortem But in order to process, you're gonna need a facility, like, right here.

Jacob Muise - 00:29:07
How are you gonna do that? Right.

Kyle Krull - 00:29:20
And

Jacob Muise - 00:29:20
I was and I had already started designing because we had already processed thousands of animals in the field via this funky system we had for pet food. So I had already designed, like, a custom mobile slaughter facility. But I needed USDA approval to start, and I needed my wife's approval to re mortgage our house.

Kyle Krull - 00:29:41
And she was waiting on USDA before she gave you that approval. That was that was the domino for her.

Jacob Muise - 00:29:46
I remember I remember, like, the guy coming out that night and I remember calling her before. I mean, like, hey. Tonight's tonight. And she was like, I don't know if, like, I want this to go through or not. Like, dude, like, she was just joking, like, but she knew she knew that inflection point for risk was, like, at that point, then exponential because she knew the way I Like, when somebody gave me the yes, I was gone. Like, we had always talked about and designed. We were never in this to, like, harvest a few 1000 a year. We wanna harvest enough deer to balance populations, which means we have to go from 0 to 15000 a year as fast as possible. And that, yeah, that scared the shit out of her.

Jacob Muise - 00:30:26
So, anyway, what the

Anthony Corsaro - 00:30:31
what year was that big inflection point, Jake? What year was that?

Jacob Muise - 00:30:34
That so that was 7 years ago when they gave us. So, yeah, 7 to, yeah, six and a half, seven years And then so this is the other intricacy of Yeah. The USDA that's really important to understand. We fall under a category called voluntary inspection. So mandatory inspection is beef, pork, chicken. If a processor is going to inspect that, like, for consumption, like human consumption. It's mandatory that they have the USDA or state inspection there, and it's mandatory the USDA shows up. So guess what voluntary means?

Jacob Muise - 00:31:02
We are voluntarily requesting them to be there. Which a means we have to pay in a mandatory plan. All of that is paid for by our our wonderful taxpayers. And b, It can voluntarily show up. So when he was like, great. I was like, perfect. When my mobile slider gets here, I want 20 inspections.

Jacob Muise - 00:31:24
He was like, you can have 2. And The next month, I was like, I want 20 inspections. He's like, no. You can have 1. Right. And so on and so on

Anthony Corsaro - 00:31:48
for Everything that they didn't inspect, you couldn't sell for human consumption, basically. Nope. Yeah. That's ridiculous.

Kyle Krull - 00:31:54
When you say inspection and and and it's one. Is that one animal? Is that one night of hunting? You know, is that 3 animals? What does that mean?

Jacob Muise - 00:32:01
So that's one night of hunting. And originally, they were only giving us a 3 hour window. So we could get you know, 17 to 20 animals kind of max. And we were still really developing our harvesting systems, but what you're requesting for is the USDA anti Mortem inspector to be on-site with you. He has to see every single animal prior to during the shot and after. And get this, the frontline supervisor, I e, the USDA veterinarian for the circuit, also has to look at every single animal. This exists in no other meat facility. So not only does we need to expect their full time that we pay for, at night during over federal overtime fees. Then we then for 3 years, we had to fly in the frontline supervisor from another island. We used to I don't know if I can say this.

Jacob Muise - 00:32:48
I can say this. We used to sleep in the chill with the deer in the field because the guy couldn't get there till noon, and we had been working all night. Yeah. Wow. So we require 2 full time USDA inspectors. And another long story short is after 3 to 4 years of this, they basically were like, oh, he's definitely not going away.

Jacob Muise - 00:33:12
They had to change the entire USDA circuit to place the frontline supervisor on Maui because we needed them every day. When he just has to pop into a plant, like, once a year so this is a guy when he rolls into your USDA plant, everybody's just, like, Oh my god. He's here, or she's here. Like, everything has to be perfect. He lives with us. So the level of oversight for the production of Vanasen is is just next level.

Jacob Muise - 00:33:35
It doesn't exist anywhere else.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:33:51
The the craziest part is the harvesting part to me because what we're talking about here is a group of snipers on ATBs with thermal with thermal goggles on, in the middle of the night, and the USDA guys got a pair of guy or gal's got a pair of thermal goggles and has to approve the shot of the deer. As it is, you know, put down, basically.

Jacob Muise - 00:34:12
Yeah.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:34:12
It's a sniper shell from however long away. Like, that's nuts.

Jacob Muise - 00:34:16
Yeah. And if you get it wrong and they shut you down.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:34:20
Yeah.

Jacob Muise - 00:34:20
So, like, wow. And so all the overhead for your business stops in stops instantly. Right? So, yeah, and that's another really long story, but but over and we continually improve those harvest systems. They really are systems. Like, I love to build these systems because they're highly intricate in everything down to, like, the way we're tagging ears after we harvest them, like, everything comes down to minutes because from the time that animal is shot or rendered, it has to be in a chill without a hair on it. In an hour. So so last so last night, we did so so again, think about the widgets. Yeah. So we did 73 last night.

Jacob Muise - 00:34:57
So at 12 o'clock, we were rolling out. We didn't have any idea where they were. We didn't know what was drones are starting to fly. We're starting to collect information. And in 6 hours, you take 73 deer I think the fires we end is about five miles from last night. So, hey, you're going really fast. 70 three deer found harvested properly carried.

Jacob Muise - 00:35:24
You can't you can't, like, drag them because it'll bruise the meat and the USDA will make you trim all of it. Carried transported back process trimmed without a hair on it and like a USDA stamp on it in 6 hours.

Kyle Krull - 00:35:45
And all at night. And so when you're saying, yeah, Carrie, it's like it's like dudes, guys and gals with headlamps with the deer on their shoulders, like, rucking through the steep slopes of Maui at night?

Jacob Muise - 00:35:59
Yeah. Like, Maui goes from 0 to 13,000 feet of elevation in a couple miles. Like, everything is on a forty five degree slope.

Kyle Krull - 00:36:06
Jake, why don't you pick a heart of business, man? Why don't you fix up the home to do? You know?

Jacob Muise - 00:36:11
This is like, I I I heard this quote. I kept, somebody said it. I can't I don't know who to attribute it to. It's like, don't be the best be the only. Like oh, yeah. This is so fun. Like, the like, And admittedly, like, I I get just as jacked talking about ecom, like, you go from a raw material that runs away from you, to solving for the very particular, case profile of Venezuela. Like, this is this is not an easy thing to actually sell. It's been really, really fun to develop systems across, like, the the the company to try and solve for this, like, very, very unique problem. So Okay. Big recap.

Jacob Muise - 00:36:47
We figure out USDA. We then we don't go away enough so that, like, about three and a half years ago, they finally place the number of employees required for us to be here to, like, finally scale. That's, like, 10, 12 years later. That's, like, the classic entrepreneur if you would have known Mhmm. Like, the night after I called my wife, I'm like, we got it. We're re mortgaged to the house. Like, I thought the next night we were going, like, we're there.

Jacob Muise - 00:37:21
I mean,

Anthony Corsaro - 00:37:28
you didn't get that memo, brother.

Jacob Muise - 00:37:29
Yeah. And now just and, again, you guys still are our best friend. They're, like, our audit tool to make sure food is safe. We got nothing but great things to say about those guys. But about 3 years ago, all of those hurdles finally get out of the way. A, we were still able to take some of the most accurate surveys on the planet. So we are always keeping track of growth and an understanding. And we knew, oh, we gotta do we gotta do 15,000 year a year. We were currently doing about 1200 to 1500. Wow.

Jacob Muise - 00:37:53
So we had to 10 x it in under 3 years.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:38:08
Jake, can share the methodology around that survey and how you came to that number? And then Yep. Also, can you share what happens if population is not controlled. Like, what is happening to the environment? What's the environmental impact of actually doing this work?

Jacob Muise - 00:38:22
Great. So we have, the the very best forward looking infrared technology in the world. Same stuff the military is using. We from a helicopter and now from drone systems, you basically count vertically from about a 1000 feet with a certain amount of overlap, but the technology is so good. Like, I'm looking across to West Molly right now, which is, like, eight miles on a vertical line. Like, I can tell you the difference between a deer and a goat at miles. So Wow. Wow. Wow.

Jacob Muise - 00:38:49
So a 1000 feet in the air looking straight down to reduce vertical layering of, like, plant and vegetation. And we've done lots of these in, like, kind of closed loop environments. We know it's within 95, 96%, the exact number of deer that are there. We've surveyed for rabbits, like, everything. Like, we can essentially find anything. So that gives us really good data start with. I this is how many we have.

Jacob Muise - 00:39:09
This is how it's impacting management. We're gonna be able to do that with drones pretty quickly here. So you can manage have data, which is, like, the most important part. And we current, like, via the irrational obsession for axis deer to your, I understood species dynamics really well. So it's actually pretty easy. Like, you put 33% into a simple interest calculator and, like, that's the line. Because we've taken a ton of data over the years on pregnant species, lactation, uteral scarring.

Jacob Muise - 00:39:43
Like, we know our species really, really well. So we knew we could actually predict growth rates. And then kind of the last part of your question, like, what happens if you don't do it? So 220,000 a year on only 4 165,000 acres is, like, literally an ecological disaster when they, you know, when they're consuming 7 to £7 a half of dry feet a day. So We like to think of it locally from we call it, like, Maka to MacKay. So, like, mountain to ocean.

Jacob Muise - 00:40:24
So I'll just there's lots of, like, small things, you know, giving it the big one. Number 1. Please. We're the most isolated land mass on the planet. Water is our most valuable asset Yeah. Period end of story, deer in our watersheds, I. E.

Jacob Muise - 00:40:40
In our high elevation, 7 to 12,000 feet, which we're designed to capture cloud. That whole forest is like a giant beard. Like, it's able to just, like, soak in cloud and, like, move them down into a aquifer, dear decimate that understory and will affect recharge by 50% IE, our our forests will capture 50 percent less water with an established deer population because as it's caught and run down, that lower band of vegetation doesn't capture it and put it down into the ground. It'll run off. K. Wow.

Jacob Muise - 00:41:23
We already talked about

Kyle Krull - 00:41:27
sorry. I I just did some. I just did, like, back of the napkin calculations. You mentioned 210,000 deer, 7.5 pounds a day. £575,000,000 of forge consumed a year. Just to put that number into perspective, that's absolutely insane. Sorry for the interruption, but continue on.

Jacob Muise - 00:41:44
Yeah. And that's not just like that's not just grass in our native forest. That's some of the most endangered species on the, like, plant species on the planet. Right? And they kinda just laugh at fencing these days. They just jump over them. They can do it anyway. So affecting our most valuable asset in Hawaii, which is water. So that's like 1st and foremost. Doesn't happen in the world in the next 100 years. If Hawaii doesn't have water, we're in a lot of trouble.

Jacob Muise - 00:42:06
So you come downslope to what I think of as our food system, So from 7000 to, like, shoreline, this is where all of, like, our food has grown. This is all of our roadways. This is all of our people. So, obviously, like, Jira on roadways is a pretty obvious, like, bad. But more importantly, what they do is they this can go really deep, but I'll give you just the basics. A, they compete with dry feed for our ranchers who a lot of them are are trying to move to regenerative, which is awesome.

Jacob Muise - 00:42:38
Those those ranchers are the only reason Hawaii looks the way it does. Those ranches, the only reason these marginal ag lands haven't turned into, like, gentleman's $1,000,000 of states crawling up the hill Yeah. Because they've been able to, like, maintain these beautiful open spaces. So, like, that's big one, number 1 for community. Number 2, and this is regen specific soil. Those deer have these tiny little lips on like a cow, and they'll eat that thing straight down to the dirt and they pull it out, those last ones, they'll pull out en route.

Jacob Muise - 00:43:14
So they will denude an entire landscape. These are volcanic soils that they take. 1000 of years to make the soils, 100 of 1000 years, and you get these rain events, which are more unstable than ever, guess where all of that soil goes. It's going down.

Kyle Krull - 00:43:39
Straight to the ocean.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:43:41
Yeah. Yeah.

Jacob Muise - 00:43:41
It's a forty five degree slope. Like, few months ago, we had this huge rain event, and they were pulling out dump trucks of soil from parking lots. And they're trying to decide, like, What do we like, this is the most valuable thing we have? Like, do we take it back up the hill and spread it out? So really impacting soils when it when they're far too many, like, in an area. And then past that shoreline is our near shore fisheries and reefs. And there's 2 really big ones. One for community, that is they call it their ice blocks, but, like, that all of that fish is food.

Jacob Muise - 00:44:15
Those near short fisheries in that level of abundance is so valuable to community in the long run as a food resource. And that sediment and soil will cover the reefs choking them out. And you kill the reef and then the fish are no longer able to exist there. But 2, which is really 2, which is really interesting, is what do people pay for when they come to Hawaii? They pay for that beautiful blue water sitting in front of their hotel. And when that beautiful blue water is mud red and like, you're unable to even, like, swim in it.

Jacob Muise - 00:44:48
A collective loss to community as a function of, like, economics, ecology, And there's a lot there's a lot more layers into this as well. But when you think of it from melted to ocean, like, even just that, if you were trying to put, like, a a dollar figure on what is the loss? It's 1,000,000 and 1,000,000 and 1,000,000 and 1,000,000 and 1,000,000 of dollars. So, that, like, that's the potential for what happens if we are out of balance. Right?

Kyle Krull - 00:45:23
I super appreciate that breakdown, and it really helps to understand, like, why it's so important to maintain the heard. I wanna ask, you know, the first time I heard about Maui Nui was probably between 20122014 on the Tim Ferris podcast. And Well, when I first heard about it, and I think it was just like an ad. It wasn't it wasn't your podcast interview with him. It was like him just talking about it. I was like, this is a really killer concept, but what happens when all the Jared gone? Like, where does the business go?

Kyle Krull - 00:45:46
So help us to understand, you know, with all the potential downsides in having too many do on the island, Why maintain herd in the right capacity? What's the benefit of having them on the island?

Jacob Muise - 00:45:59
Yeah. When you have great

Kyle Krull - 00:46:03
data and you understand the and that data and the IE that

Jacob Muise - 00:46:09
invent think of it as inventory. Like, if it exists in our food system, this is like the fun part because of the unique type of species they are, and how unique Maui and our soil structures are. This is the most nutrient dense red meat we know of. And it's not even close. Like, we we're talking like 50% more, like, protein and amino acids, 64 times the healthy fats. Like, is not even close. So when you're saying so if you can manage their populations responsibly, you're defaulting as a any rancher is just a grass farmer.

Jacob Muise - 00:46:37
You're saying, like, what's the most valuable thing for community and customer to have in this place that's active steering. So we didn't know that originally. The original premise was like, let's just find balance and turn it into food. As we've discovered how nutrient dense they are, how incredible they are for, like, our customers and community, it it is then up to the rancher in that private landlord to decide, like, hey. How many deer do I want? What's the interaction between this and my cattle operation and recreational hunting and community? And the default is like, oh, no.

Jacob Muise - 00:47:14
We want some of them just not too many. That they're, like, impacting soil and near shore fisheries. And what's really cool is we are capable of doing that. We are capable of, like, maintaining the right population in areas, and that's highly dynamic. Like, that's gonna change all the time, but they are valuable to community and customer and and the ranchers themselves. So it's finding balance, which is gonna be a constant balancing act to do so.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:47:53
The the weaving of the masculine and the feminine and the brand and in in your articulation of it is really cool, Jake, because you have, like, these really potent data insights and kind of scientific rigor behind it. And you have this, like, really cool honoring of place culture, you know, community involvement, like value systems, indigenous wisdom. So it's just really cool. I think it, like, perfect perfectly encapsulates, like, the the, you know, future return of vision that we're all trying to create in our own little ways. I I guess the next question is, like, how the hell do you start selling all this deer meat, man? Like, what, you know, you you get you get the harvest kinda up and running, and then you're like, okay. We gotta sell this to somebody.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:48:26
What what is that commercial journey been like?

Jacob Muise - 00:48:36
What's a good place to start here? I have a, I have an investor, that was in the meat industry for 40, 50 years. And he said, you accidentally created the perfect neat triangle didn't know what he was talking about. And he said it's the only per he said it's the only, like, the meat triangle is something the biggest meat companies in the world spend 1,000,000,000, 1,000,000,000 of dollars on, and it's breed. It's breed, feed, and humane handling.

Kyle Krull - 00:49:09
Yeah.

Jacob Muise - 00:49:09
And it said those three parts of the triangle create the perfect product. And if you mess up any one of those, it's what creates product and consistency. And he's like, you didn't know what you're doing, but you accidentally have a single breed that goes and finds itself perfect feed. And we have, like, our harvesting systems essentially introduce no stress to that animal, like, during the process. And to answer your question of, like, how did you start selling it? We got really lucky in that the accidental triangle that we produced creates a highly consistent product. Now That was not always the case. Like, when we were just doing the first few 1000 a year, like, and we only had, like, our one little slaughter facility, we would take whole carcass, ship it to another island for processing.

Jacob Muise - 00:49:52
Very quickly, that was too much for them, and we didn't have Like, there wasn't enough processing in state. So he used to used to take whole carcass, send it all the way to the continent, to be Oh, it was a mess. We didn't have an and I didn't have enough money to build my own processing facility. So it also took It also took us several years, and you guys will hear this. I'm sure with a whole bunch of people you talk to, like, product quality is the number one thing. It's what will dictate the vast majority of your growth.

Jacob Muise - 00:50:24
And it took us a long time to, like, finally be able to come back to have everything processed on Maui, which means we had, like, total control of that like, supply chain and that quality. And that was really the big inflection point for us. When we had full control over the quality of our product, we started growing really, really quickly. Because up to that point, it was like, a, convincing somebody to even try it. B, the quality of our product and since he was all over the place, depending on how somebody tipped it down. And if they cut it frozen versus, like, temp like, it was and I didn't have any control. It was sitting in the plant on the continent that I had.

Jacob Muise - 00:51:00
Like, I was just getting pictures. So struggled for 3 to 4 years to build really good systems to create quality product, which is another, like, really fun problem to solve, but ultimately resulted in us building those systems here. And you might, like, kinda tell. I'm shitty. I'm I'm sitting in a shipping container right now. This is my office. Yeah.

Jacob Muise - 00:51:25
We've built our entire operation out of shipping containers. That's awesome. Because because they're mobile and more importantly, they're modular. So when we finally were like, okay, we're gonna do our own processing. We brought in one shipping container retrofitted it, and we were able to do, like, just a little bit of processing. And then when we could like, when we had enough to do the next one, we dropped another shipping container behind it beside it, cut a door in it, and then we had a 2 container processing facility.

Jacob Muise - 00:51:50
And now we've got We have it's one of my favorite things is we'll bring in visitors. You guys gotta come here one day. And you stare at the outside of this, like, 9 there's 9 containers that are, like, stacked together, and it is this complete it's, like, completely unassuming, like, where it is in here, and then you open the door, and it's just like this world class, like, processing facility, like, sitting behind this container door that we got to build modularly. So like like a lot of things, we had to scale appropriately for growth and cash and when we could like, you know, we did have to raise money along the way to, like, take these different jumps. But but the other big So a, product quality, number one thing, ultimately as like a growth driver. 2, we got really lucky in the investment group that we did have, I. E.

Jacob Muise - 00:52:49
Like, the Tim Ferris', and Peter Atias, and, like, that voice for us drove the vast majority of customer acquisition early on, and still really does. But we got really lucky to be able to jump into, like, podcast land early on. And, of course, we did the base, like, meta, Google, etcetera, etcetera, but podcast drove the vast majority of growth for a long time.

Kyle Krull - 00:53:20
That all makes sense. And as you're painting the picture with these modular shipping containers, I could not help but get Jurassic Park vibes I'm pretty sure there's there's a few, like, 1 or 2 of the movies. There's, like, helicopters flying shipping these chambers over islands, like, stacking stuff up, and it's also state of the facilities where they're doing, like, dinosaur research and stuff. Yeah. You're also using, like, infrared tech, and I'm pretty sure there's a scene with, like, an infrared Goat in Jurassic Park. Not that I'm a huge part fan by any stretch of imagination, but I keep coming back to these images.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:53:49
So we're trying to make a drink of water, and my guy throws a Jurassic Park reference at me, and I just spit

Kyle Krull - 00:53:54
on myself. Live in the air. Love that. I feel like it's all I wanna get Anthony to spill some food somehow, you know, if that's that's the goal of your episode. So, you know, you mentioned podcast land early, like, super fortuitous timing, right, you know, and talk to a little bit about how that business is scaled and how you're thinking about that business moving forward because like you mentioned, you have like a a herd number you're trying to aim for. You're trying to find that balance, right, and that's both from, like, the rancher's perspective and the data that you have. And, you know, most companies, like, okay, go out, you know, find more cattle. But you have a finite number in that herd. So what does that mean for your business moving forward? And and how has that changed the way you think about growth?

Jacob Muise - 00:54:34
Yeah. So we went big on subscription early on. Obviously, so much benefit to LTV wants a customer, like, on meeting venison instead of beef, like, there's very limited options elsewhere. It's highly convenient. We can get it right to their door in 2 or 3 days. So, big win, like, on subscriptions. In the next 2 to 3 months, the number of subscribers and or members will match the number of

Kyle Krull - 00:55:01
deer required every year to ballast populations. And at that point, you close

Jacob Muise - 00:55:08
membership subscription indefinitely. Now it's not really closed because you have churn. Right? But We actually have true scarcity. And this is this this is my job as CEO to make sure we're telling this really well because leveraging leveraging true scarcity is what dictates growth for us because that guy churns at an old pricing from 2020, the next person that coming in is not getting that pricing. They're, like, my job is to continue to leverage our value proposition to make sure we see continual growth for our customers and, like, just as importantly for community and the level of support that we have. The mobile invasive species harvesting systems we've designed absolutely can go other places. So there's 2 other islands with other deer. Like, there's scale potential for, like, other islands, other places. This actually doesn't happen anywhere else in the world, which is really interesting. And those are conversations we're having.

Jacob Muise - 00:55:56
But what more importantly, I remember I remember going through, like, our first fundraising round and having to create, like, my operating agreement and that initial investment group just, like, dragging me over the calls. Like, well, what happens if you die? And I'll and I'm just like, what are you guys talking about? What? I I want that operating agreement puts community first, and it puts scale like, last, essentially. We wanted to solve a very specific problem.

Jacob Muise - 00:56:30
So part of this is, because everybody's gonna run into this, is We also set an expectation very, very early on that this is where we're going. The operating agreement dictates that you're coming for the ride or not. And they're along for the ride. And they understand how big we're going to be on Maui and and a substantial business to do 15,000 a year, and it'll produce, like, it's it's a dividend model. But if that's as big as we get, that's as big as we get. Solving that problem is the most important thing for Maui.

Jacob Muise - 00:57:10
And that's, like, that's the we are laser focused on that for now, and then we'll kind of see what happens after that.

Kyle Krull - 00:57:26
But you keep mentioning, oh, go ahead.

Jacob Muise - 00:57:29
No. I was gonna say, but, like, if you're lucky enough to have a subscription, you're lucky enough. Like, the last time this happened, we did not do it well. So Peter didn't tell us, but Peter Tia went on Rogan's podcast. Talked about us. Rogan brought up the website. He absolutely crushed us. Like Yeah. And we were sold out it we were sold out of everything for 7 months.

Jacob Muise - 00:57:50
And luckily, we had already started the process with a customer where we restock every month. The beginning of the month, we put everything back in stock because this is more commercial fishing boat than branch operation. Like Yeah. If it's, like, harvesting can be all over the place depending on what the month is, but our customers were furious. Like, regular customers that could get it all the time were, like, losing their mind. We have people writing in, like, this is the Venice and Hunger games.

Jacob Muise - 00:58:18
I hate this. Like, people were just, like, They were not happy. So we've done a better job planning. Like, we've been telling each, like, we've been telling customers for months months months. Like, it's coming. It's coming. It's coming. It's coming. Please be ready. Please don't be it.

Jacob Muise - 00:58:29
Like, when it is inaccessible, we just wanna and and why we're not scaling your responsibility, like, irresponsibly, we want people to understand why. So with that, to answer your question, like, we're trying to do a good job of that and communicating that. And I think most of our customers are getting it, which is great.

Kyle Krull - 00:58:54
I'm curious. Do you have enough demand? And is there any interest, or is this already happening with, like, the local community on Maui? Are there, like, high end restaurants serving Maui Nui Venison, or is it primarily like all DTC all package all being sold on online?

Jacob Muise - 00:59:08
No. Definitely lots of really cool relationships with, really nice restaurants. There's like a pizza truck that uses it. We preferentially allocate inventory locally. Both, both from a wholesale level, but also D2C. So I have no, like, I have no problem talking about this. Like, somebody that pays $40 a pound for this pays $8 a pound for this locally through our CallMai program through, like, our local accessibility program. They get the exact same thing. It gets delivered to their own in the same way. We've been unapologetic about that from day 1, like a community resource.

Jacob Muise - 00:59:37
And Oh, yeah. We we not only make sure it's accessible from a purchasing standpoint, but, we have a hollow eye program, which is a donation program we established, in, like, during COVID, we're also as one of the most isolated land masses on the planet when, like, shipping were takes just two and a half days and we're out of food in the entire state. Wow. So shipping lanes, anything like COVID, all shelves are empty. And then, unfortunately, recently, you know, 9 months ago, we had one of the worst wildfires in recorded history. And immediately, the community like, needed to call on this resource.

Jacob Muise - 01:00:21
And so we've developed programs for our community over the years so that, like, this is accessible and they're able to pick it up from different locations. So we do, I think we've done like £90,000 in the last couple, like, in the last 8 months here. So something that, like, we still very much believe it's a community resource. We wanna make it sure it's accessible from a purchasing standpoint, but also, like, from a sharing standpoint with the

Kyle Krull - 01:00:51
That's incredible. And I don't wanna take any thunder away from the wildfire support because I know that's been super near dear to your heart, and I'm sure, you know, the the communities appreciate appreciates that work to capacity. I can't understand. But I do wanna touch on for our retail listeners, Yeah. The the ordering piece is crazy. I've been lucky enough to go to Maui, to white and check out a couple of Whole Foods stores there. Right?

Kyle Krull - 01:01:09
And, like, Whole Foods typically Like, and and most retailers, you order, you know, Monday for Tuesday, and the the order arrives the next day. But the grocery buyers in these stores are ordering 10 days out. You know? And, like, so a show can be empty, and they're, like, still oriented for what they think is gonna happen 10 days in the future. It is so complicated. So, yeah, that that food scarcity thing is it's legit.

Kyle Krull - 01:01:33
And it's amazing that you have prioritized feeding the local community the way that you have And that pricing thing is different. I mean, there's almost incentive for me just moved to Maui so I can eat now in Dewey at that price. You know?

Jacob Muise - 01:01:48
We got word of, I don't know what what's call it like a dentist in vacation. We got word the other day of, somebody flew in came to one of the stores locally that you can get it for super cheap, bought, like, £50 of it, put it in the suitcase in the store, And apparently, like, the guy asked me, he's like, he went right back to the airport. That's a good one. That can't be, like, that can't be true. I think somebody, like, flew in, like, bought it locally, and then, like, just went right back on the plane. And I was like, is is that, like, is that gonna happen? Kinda crazy.

Jacob Muise - 01:02:25
But, Again, like, lots of companies, the beers, all of these people can have, like, false scarcity. I think when you have true scarcity, it's something that you we are gonna do our best to try and leverage for community and customer and utilize that pricing power to make sure we can continue to grow and serve You know, there's, there's, like, forty people sitting out here between our harvesters and butchers, like, those types of local jobs are amazing, and we wanna pay them really well. And and they this is my favorite part of, like, the regen conversation is those are local hyper local young people taking care of place. That's what regenerative ag is. Like, they are vested in taking care of this place, and it's, like, long term health. And that's a that's an amazing thing to grow here locally, seeing the that local community committed to environmental improvement. Right?

Anthony Corsaro - 01:03:27
Yeah. Especially when legacy of American Agriculture is basically just extracting from rural companies to, you know, move move money into urban centers. Jake, I'm curious kind of, like, if you can share what the customer feedback and demographics have shown as to the primary purchasing drivers because they're super cool story here. It's super unique. There is scarcity. The nutrient density is crazy. Like, there's all these reasons that someone can purchase from you, which mirrors all the regenerative brands, but I think we're also struggling as moving of like, what do we attach ourselves to? Is it all those things? Is it nutrient density? It's kind of the silver bullet. Is it something different for each consumer.

Anthony Corsaro - 01:04:00
So just curious kinda like what you can share that you have learned from that journey that might be applicable to others.

Jacob Muise - 01:04:10
Yeah. So couple couple subsegments for us, certainly not like a single cohort that's really valuable. Cohort number 1 is And you gotta remember we're so much more expensive than the vast majority of other, like k. Court number 1 is I was brave enough to purchase it once, and it tasted amazing. Like, there is shock It, like, it is a 100% taste why they're repurchasing. I Wow. A 100% product quality. And I actually really think the same way your and this is my favorite con when we can get into nutrient density, This is my favorite conversation around nutrient density is just like really good coffee.

Jacob Muise - 01:04:46
Your brain teaches you, like, it's good for you. And you want, like, I think our customers always comment on, like, oh, it's so clean tasting and, like, they are tasting the harvesting process. And they are tasting nutrient density. And because there's no fillers and not it, like, that's the cohort. Like, I finally got over the edge, Yeah. And product quality won me over.

Jacob Muise - 01:05:20
So I think that's that's not the taste is the most important thing, which is crazy because that took me years to learn because I thought it was ethical. I thought it was story. I thought it was all these things. Like, I advised a few other, like, small brands and they sent me their stuff, and I'm like, that tastes terrible. I don't care how, like, I'm just like, I don't care how good this is for you. I don't care how good your story is. Like, I've learned this lesson.

Jacob Muise - 01:05:40
You need to make that thing taste better. And so that's like big step number 1 is taste. Step number 2 for us, which is a really interesting cohort, is vegans. So Wow. And this and this yeah. So this but this will fall into it, which I'm sure you guys I've heard before within the meat industry, I ethical, humane. Yeah. Right.

Jacob Muise - 01:06:04
I think where we bring some vegans back is we're so simple to understand. So the animal has to be harvested, I. E. The alternative for the animal is worse. Right? And then the nutrient density is so compelling that they're like, if they were on the edge, they're like, I'm gonna try and classic, they start with broth.

Jacob Muise - 01:06:27
I don't know why. So they try the broth. Maybe it's less. I'm not sure what that is. They try the stick And then they're, like, they're done. They don't like, we we honestly still get an email a week from a customer or, like, a referral from, like, I thought I was never gonna eat meat again.

Jacob Muise - 01:06:50
I haven't done it for 20 years. I'm so and the the gratitude that they share is they're so happy to have found something they feel okay with. Right? Wow. And and so that's a, like, if I could take them out and, like, stick an LTV on them, like, they're forever, right, as long as we keep doing our job to produce, like, a quality product. And then the last one, via Certainly not like last in order, but and maybe forcibly, Peter Atillo, Tim Ferris, Andrew Huberman. Who are they talking to?

Jacob Muise - 01:07:22
They're talking to the health and wellness. And when we got our nutrient density, data back

Kyle Krull - 01:07:39
that

Jacob Muise - 01:07:40
put us just so heads and tails about everything else, I. E. Even just protein per calorie, even just the conversation of you can get 10, 11 grams of protein in 50 calories. That, like, that single conversation was anybody that's counting macros or anything else is like, I can't get that anywhere else. So, if I could answer the question, If you're not looking for several cohorts Yeah. Especially with how hard it is to find people these days, via Google, like, if you're not actively searching up several sub segments to your customer base, like, oh, you are gonna have a hard time. So we are don't ever have, like, a single customer. We've got, like, 5 or 6 customers. We're constantly, like, serving and speaking to.

Kyle Krull - 01:08:26
That'll make a lot of sense. I can say I have recently been counting my macros, and I love the beat sticks. I should also say that my fitness pal has it wrong, and I have to manually enter it in because maybe they're using an old, note. This is a fax panel. Come on. I've reported, like, it needs to be changed. It's not accurate. So I'm working with you, Jake.

Kyle Krull - 01:08:40
We'll we'll get that fixed sooner rather than later.

Jacob Muise - 01:08:48
Appreciate it. Appreciate that. For sure.

Kyle Krull - 01:08:50
You mentioned broth. So I didn't know how we were gonna bring this up, but you opened the door. So I'm gonna walk through Jake and I, we we had a conversation a couple of months ago at this point, and our teams have been working diligently on a collaboration both from a packaging perspective, and an r and d perspective to see like, hey, can we make a kettle and fire bone broth with Maui Nui wild harvested venison bones, and that will be coming next year. I can't say specifically when, but sometime it's 25, that is actually gonna come to fruition. I just saw the first packaging mock ups, and they look absolutely insane. I can't wait for this to be released. So we're super, super stoked. Oh, so

Jacob Muise - 01:09:34
us too.

Kyle Krull - 01:09:35
Jake, yeah, when and why did that become an idea of yours we're super we're super fortunate and and lucky and stoked for this partnership, but, like, help us understand, like, why why was that important to Maui Nui to develop a relationship like this?

Jacob Muise - 01:09:50
So we're lucky enough that we could probably sell the vast majority of it ourselves. But when there's nothing to sell, either gonna, like, hide in a hole and website's just gonna stay sold out. Are you gonna tell stories? And I think probably what I was most excited about is Kevin Fire has always tried to tell food system stories and in having to, like, get to know you and Justin, like, you guys are gonna keep telling that food system story, and that's our that's the same story we're telling. Right? So we want to find unique mission partners that we can work with for a long, long time. This is not like a single colab that, like, we wanna tell food system stories together, and how nutrient density can change that. And we we're only so big.

Jacob Muise - 01:10:34
Like, we can't do that by ourselves. So if, yeah, can a relationship with kettle and fire create more collective good? Hell, yeah. And and immediately, like, had your breath before I made my own. Did you taste the first apple? I think it was Oh,

Kyle Krull - 01:11:03
I haven't had it yet. No. I, I did see I did see, the nutrition facts panel, which I've not allowed to talk about, but it was incredible. To your point, like, nutrient density is really important to us, and I've turned really hard not to say what I wanna say, but the the nutrition on this skew is gonna be through the roof. And to your point, like, this isn't a super commercially viable SKU for Killam Fire, but it's a story and a system that we wanna support. You know, we can't have national distribution omnichannel for this SKU. There's just simply not on the phone supply. We wanna support the work that you're doing. And if we can get that into more people's hands and tell that story and get more people to understand the importance of nutrient density and wild harvest and how meat can be a positive impact on the planet.

Kyle Krull - 01:11:38
Like, we wanna collab and do that work with you. So we're super pumped up about this, man. I cannot wait to try the samples. I gotta get on my R and D team and tell them, like, why has this stopped and shipped to me? First and foremost, and number 2, to to launch this thing next year is gonna be super fun.

Jacob Muise - 01:12:01
Yeah. I, it's gonna be really fun telling that story as the input where the story change over the next 4 to 5 years. Like, in 4 years, we're gonna be having this conversation, like, oh, in the first Nutrien density is being approved and, like, going on labels and, like, can people understand it? So we get to keep having this conversation on a larger platform because we can collaborate together. You're gonna have it one way or the other, but we might as well do it together. And and kettle and fire, and then we have a few more of these that, like, I think those are just exceptional relationships to help build better food systems. And, yeah, we're honored and super stoked to be able to do that with you guys.

Kyle Krull - 01:12:43
Oh, yeah. I'm grinning ear

Anthony Corsaro - 01:12:44
to ear the whole time because Jake and I get on an intro called months ago, and he's just we're you know, going back and forth. And he's like, well, I feel like, you know, we could do more with broth and maybe through the collab collaboration. And I'm like, yeah. You know, I host the podcast with a guy from Cadillac Five. Right? That was the easiest thing I've ever met.

Jacob Muise - 01:13:01
Oh, fun, man.

Kyle Krull - 01:13:02
Yeah. So, Jake, you know, obviously, we're super pumped. That is a skew that is gonna come in the future, and we I I'm I actually really have said that I haven't tried it yet. So I I'm really I'm gonna slack my team

Jacob Muise - 01:13:12
back. It's coming. It's

Anthony Corsaro - 01:13:13
coming, brother.

Kyle Krull - 01:13:14
I I need to get on this ASAP. But what else is coming for the future of Maui Nui? Is it more products? Is it more partnerships? Can you talk about any of the other strategic partnerships that you have on the horizon? You know, what's next?

Jacob Muise - 01:13:26
Sure. So, well, let's do this. So I can talk about one, that we're producing product that we've never made before, we are jump crazily jumping into the supplement industry. So we are gonna be so we are gonna be producing a organ capsule. So Hell, yeah. We we saw the nutrient density in fall. We're just like, I was like, I ate heart and some liver, and I was like, oh, I, like, I have to find a way to eat more of these things. And so we dug into, like, liver recipes, and I was like, I just can't make this work. Like, and so selfishly, and I love it.

Jacob Muise - 01:13:59
Like, cleanest liver I've ever tasted. So selfishly, we're doing we're doing 3 things. 1, we are producing a 90, 10 stick So 90 10%. So 5% heart and liver that is more multivitamin than meat stick. And I don't know what happened but it is probably the best taste and stick we've ever made. So Wow. That that's coming, which is really fun like, the macros and micros on it are pretty crazy.

Kyle Krull - 01:14:37
Amazing.

Jacob Muise - 01:14:38
To making an Oregon capsule, which same thing, like, the nutrient density on it is amazing. And all of the synergies with coming that come with, like, eating freeze dried like, consuming freeze dried Oregon. It's just so good for you. But 3, the one I'm really excited about, and I've been taking for about a month now, we're doing velvet capsules. So Antler Velvet Yeah. So Antler Antler Velvet is currently illegal in most of the sports arenas because it has IGF 1 in it and has human growth hormone. So remember, a deer a deer atler is one of the only bones in the natural world that regrow this thing, like, 30 inches of it, re grow in.

Jacob Muise - 01:15:08
So I've been it it's the real deal. It's got been tested. I've been I've been testing it for a month. Same thing. Like, there's gonna be limited supply. But it's you we are just trying to do our best, a, to obviously serve customer, but really utilize every single part of this as best we can that is most valuable to our our customer.

Jacob Muise - 01:15:31
So those are 3 really interesting products that'll be coming out. We've got like a breakfast sausage coming out, next month, which is amazing. We have a really cool partnership with I can't say who it is, but a a pet food company that's gonna be producing one of the best pet products on the market with, some of our awful. Awesome. And then have 2 really cool partnerships, big partnerships with some giant brands. I can't quite talk about yet to support Holloway.

Jacob Muise - 01:16:03
So directly fund the long term support for our community. There's 2 giant brands that are jumping in, like, all the way in to, really support, like, the long term recovery of Maui and and making sure our community always has medicine available for that. So those will be will be big ones, man. We're really, we're really excited about that as well too. So, yeah, lots of lots of new things coming, which is great. So

Kyle Krull - 01:16:40
That's incredible. And I love the concept of taking an ancestral blend ground, like, you know, ground pound and putting it into a mystic. I think that such a low hanging fruit to have, like, organ meat accessible on the go in a very convenient format. Like, that is incredible. So I'm personally super pumped think he's got a lot of commercial viability. So kudos to you. Also for anybody who's listening and not watching, Jake looks wide. He looks good. He looks strong. So that's it. It must be, like, really do it as thing.

Kyle Krull - 01:17:05
And I just wanna be really happy with that in a way that doesn't feel like I'm hitting on you. But, like

Jacob Muise - 01:17:14
There you go.

Kyle Krull - 01:17:15
I gotta I gotta try this. Stuff, man. Like it. Man, so pumped for that. That's gonna be really good.

Jacob Muise - 01:17:21
We'll give you guys we will we'll let you in early on those subscriptions if you want, brother.

Kyle Krull - 01:17:26
Yeah. Oh, yeah. For sure.

Anthony Corsaro - 01:17:27
If you ever needed motivation to get your first value order or be on their email list for some of these upcoming products, you know,

Jacob Muise - 01:17:34
this this podcast

Kyle Krull - 01:17:35
is a

Jacob Muise - 01:17:35
issue over the edge. Actually, this this podcast has been we're all gonna get in trouble because Well, you got approval for the broth, but I definitely didn't get approval to talk. So, but, yeah, lots of, Yeah. Lots of fun things this year for sure. Yeah.

Anthony Corsaro - 01:17:53
Well, Jake, it's been a really fun conversation. It feels like a shame to wrap it, but I know we we need to. Unfortunately. We'll do we'll do conversation too live from Maui. So I'm looking forward to that, but

Jacob Muise - 01:18:04
it's good

Anthony Corsaro - 01:18:05
to do. Actually, the question we we kinda wrap all the episodes with, which is how do we get regen brands to have 50% market share by 2050? How do we get there?

Jacob Muise - 01:18:14
Product product quality. It's gotta taste good. Like, it it has to.

Kyle Krull - 01:18:19
I love how simple that was.

Anthony Corsaro - 01:18:21
Yes. And

Kyle Krull - 01:18:22
and you're spot on.

Jacob Muise - 01:18:23
And it and when you think it tastes good enough, you have to go back and try and make it taste better. And for the That that is a function. I love it because it's nutrition of place. Ultimately, how good it tastes comes down to how well you take care of your places. And then, like, obsessing over product quality has to taste good. And it'll get us there for sure.

Anthony Corsaro - 01:18:46
I love the lesson there for brands because if there's anyone that could obsess over everything but product quality, it's Maui Nui, and that's your answer. And so it just shows, like, fundamentals are the fundamentals, but all this extra work that we're doing in regenerative and better food systems is going to end up being that, but we just have to focus on on that I love it, man. Yep.

Jacob Muise - 01:19:07
We're gonna get there.

Kyle Krull - 01:19:08
Cool. Well, we we're probably gonna drive more traffic than PRT and Joe Rogan. So This is this is the part of the episode where I give the website a or sorry, the website I shout out. So it's Maui Nui. That's n u I venison.com. Check it out. There's some incredible long format storytelling.

Kyle Krull - 01:19:21
I think there was, like, a YouTube video on there, and it was everything was, like, all the first minute, and it was 10 minutes long. And I was enthralled. It was so fascinating to see in this beautifully shot. Your imaging and branding is on point. Anybody who's interested in learning more, please check out the site, buy what you can, because it is legitimately scarce. Yeah, Jake. Thank you so much for the time, man.

Kyle Krull - 01:19:38
Caitlin Fire Crew is coming out in October, a handful of us, so I can't wait to meet in person. See how the process works. And, again, appreciate everything you're doing, man. Thank you.

Jacob Muise - 01:19:57
Yeah. Likewise. Really appreciate the conversation you guys have. It's super important. Yeah. Let's definitely do this while I get on Maui.

Anthony Corsaro - 01:20:06
Appreciate you, brother. Thanks for joining us. Take care. For show notes, episode transcripts, and more information on our guests and what we discuss in the show, check out our website, regendashbrands.com.thatisregendashbrands.com. You can also find our regen recaps on the website, regen recaps take less than 5 minutes to read and cover all the key points of the full hour long conversations. You can check out our YouTube channel, Regen Brands Pie cast for all of our episodes with both video and audio.

Anthony Corsaro - 01:20:34
The best way to support our work is to give us a 5 star rating on your favorite podcast platform, subscribe to future episodes, and share the show with your friends. Thanks for tuning into The ReGen Brands Podcast, brought to you by the Regen Coalition and All Ventures. We hope you learned something new in this episode and it empowers you to use your voice, your time, and your dollars to help us build a better and more regenerative food system. Love you guys.