#102 - Joseph Cassinelli @ El Nacho - Tortilla Chips Reimagined Through Lucha Libre & Regenerative Ag

Episode Recap:

ReGen Brands Recap #102 - Tortilla Chips Reimagined Through Lucha Libre & Regenerative Ag - (RECAP LINK)

Episode Transcript:

Disclaimer: This transcript was generated with AI and is not 100% accurate.

Kyle Krull - 00:00:13
Welcome to the ReGen Brands Podcast. This is a place for brands, retailers, investors, and other food system stakeholders to learn about the consumer brands supporting regenerative agriculture and how they're changing the world. This is your host, Kyle, joined by my cohost, AC, who's gonna take us into the

Anthony Corsaro - 00:00:32
episode. On this episode, we are joined by Joseph Cassinelli, who is the founder and president of El Nacho. El Nacho is supporting regenerative agriculture with their line of tortilla chips made with certified regenerative corn. In this episode, Joe shares how El Nacho was born during the pandemic and how it turned him from a seasoned restaurant tour to a new CPG founder. He details the importance of their clean ingredients, ancient processing techniques, and intentional sourcing decisions to produce a bold, flavorful chip that is better for eaters, farmers, and the planet. We get the behind the scenes look at their brand inspiration and desire to bring storytelling and joy to the stack aisle with their bold Lucha Libre inspired characters like El Nacho, Miss Mango, and El Diablo. Joe also gives his hot takes on how we can increase consumer demand for returner products and share some top secret information about their innovation pipeline.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:01:19
So grab some chips and guac and dial in on this one. Let's go.

Kyle Krull - 00:01:35
What's up, everybody? Welcome back to another episode of the ReGen Brands Podcast. Very excited today to have our friend Joe from El Nacho with us. So welcome, Joe.

Joseph Cassinelli - 00:01:43
Thanks for having me.

Kyle Krull - 00:01:45
Thanks for making chips, man. I'm a big I'm a big chip consumer, and, I've been been eating tortilla chips for a long time. And I actually didn't see your brand at Expo West, but AC told me about it during our Expo West recap episode, and I immediately bought a variety pack, and was blown away. I have sent them and told numerous friends about them. I think they're phenomenal chips. And what I love most is how fun the brand is while also being well intentioned, high quality, thoughtful ingredients, clean LOI. So really pumped to have you here and to learn more about the story.

Joseph Cassinelli - 00:02:17
That's why I really appreciate that. It's very kind of you.

Kyle Krull - 00:02:19
Yeah. Absolutely. So so for our listeners who are less familiar with El Nacho, give us a quick high level. What sort of products do you produce? What SKUs do you make in flavors, and where can people buy your products today?

Joseph Cassinelli - 00:02:31
Yeah. So we're a, artisanal craft, tortilla chip brands. We're making tortilla chips based on ancient techniques. My partner, Toby, is a master tortilla maker. When we started out to do the business, we really wanna do something unique and a snackable tortilla chip. We saw that as a category we really wanted to go into. That's where you find us. So we're at a lot of, local stores here. We've launched kind of nationally with some bigger retailers. We got some new launches coming up and, you know, farms everywhere from farm stands to natural stores to conventional, we're starting to make a lot of headway.

Kyle Krull - 00:03:05
Well, I live out in Pacific Northwest, and I have yet to like, I I can't buy them easily that I know of yet. So I'm I'm eagerly anticipating. If you send me a cell sheet, man, I'll take care of it for you.

Joseph Cassinelli - 00:03:14
Appreciate that. I will do it.

Kyle Krull - 00:03:16
We'll get there. But when you say here, where where is here?

Joseph Cassinelli - 00:03:19
I I think you should be interested in Massachusetts. Yeah. We're based out of Massachusetts. It was kinda funny. People are like, oh, Tortillas don't come out of Massachusetts. I'm like, well, my partner's from Chihuahua. So it's just like, you know, vis a vis Massachusetts.

Kyle Krull - 00:03:32
Right. Right.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:03:33
Yeah. Well, we're both actively working on the El Nacho West Coast expansion. I placed a sizable order a few weeks back and realized that I probably bought a little too much. So I had my girlfriend take it with all her friends to Coachella, Joe, and they were very impressed and very excited.

Joseph Cassinelli - 00:03:49
Oh, that's amazing. What a love some of those fish. Consumers. Yeah.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:03:52
Yeah. Miss Mango is my personal favorite. I think they're all great, but that's that's definitely my number one at the moment.

Joseph Cassinelli - 00:03:58
Yeah. That's Miss Mango took the, first place, next year award for best salty snack at Expo West. Yeah.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:04:03
Yeah. Yeah. We were gonna see that. Yeah. She's she's captivating. And we wanna dive into her and and all the other characters and and all of it. But, Joe, take us back. You, I believe, are, like, a successful restaurateur. How did you start making tortilla chips? Why did you go from that or or do that in addition to the restaurant stuff?

Joseph Cassinelli - 00:04:22
Yeah. So I have a group of Mexican restaurants called the Pina Burrow. One of them is called the Burrow Bar, but, we're an upscale casual Mexican restaurant group that started in, 02/2012. Mhmm. Based off you know, it was a second concept for the restaurant group and kinda just took off, but really loved Mexican cuisine. I thought it was, like, wide open in The United States. Like, tell people it's a lot like cooking Italian food. You know?

Joseph Cassinelli - 00:04:39
It's like we base a lot of a cuisine on Oaxaca, and Oaxaca is a lot like Tuscany or Italy. You have coast mountains. You got valleys, you got cheese, meat, dairy, you have all the things, spices. So Mexican cuisine is really popular and it really meant a lot to me, and I thought it would become a very popular mainstream cuisine in The United States. And the demographic in The United States is growing, you know Yeah. La Latino is very much a a part of our culture now, and maybe not as much on the East Coast as it is in the West Coast Midwest, but it's growing.

Joseph Cassinelli - 00:05:05
You know, my partner Toby is a musician, and he always tells me he's like, you know, Latin music isn't that big in United States, but it's the number one music in the world. Wow. So it's something to think about when you're perspective. Like, top five musicians in the world are are Latin. They're not what we would think of. It's not Justin Bieber or anybody else. But, there was a natural progression.

Joseph Cassinelli - 00:05:27
So I I, you know, what I always use high quality tortillas at the restaurants, and, it was challenging. I kinda dabbled into, like, opening a factory over the last ten years and never really had the bandwidth to do it. And then during the pandemic, when the restaurants were shut down, Toby approached me. I was like, hey. You wanna do tortillas? I was like, yeah. Screw it.

Joseph Cassinelli - 00:05:44
Let's build a factory and make tortillas. I don't have anything else going on besides the leak takeout. So, it was fun. It was, like, it gave me something, like, kind of a breath of fresh air, especially from the restaurant industry where it was, like, it was getting strangled to death, and brought, like, a lot of my passion back for creating and and storytelling. And I think that's what we wanted to focus on as a brand is really tell a story. That's why you see the characters.

Joseph Cassinelli - 00:06:11
That's why you see the the names for the characters and their origin stories. And as the brand progresses, the flavors progress, the characters progress. Like, Miss Mango, she's got the Scooby Doo van. Like, she drives the Impala. Everybody gets in. So, that was really inspiration.

Joseph Cassinelli - 00:06:24
It was it was creating a better for you snack that you know, I have four kids, and I'm a blue you know, I'm a Cool Ranch Dorito guy

Anthony Corsaro - 00:06:38
Yeah.

Joseph Cassinelli - 00:06:39
Forever, but I don't wanna get my kids those. And we wanna create something that was, you know, relatable, fun, but maybe mom and dad feel better about buying it for their kids. Mhmm.

Kyle Krull - 00:06:49
For sure. I love that you brought up the Doritos factor because that's when I first tried the chips, I was like, wow. This is like the first time. It's it's like a guilt for a Dorito. And growing up, like, you know, shout out to my algebra teacher freshman year. My my buddies and I were so obnoxious. Every morning, we buy a huge bag of Dorito salsa chips and thumbprint our homework with, like, the stuff you get on your thumbs. We're trying to make as much noise as we could eating these chips.

Joseph Cassinelli - 00:07:13
Right on.

Kyle Krull - 00:07:14
I haven't really touched them since. You know? So it's really nice to be able to get that sort of fix back into my pantry in a way that I feel really good about. And, you know, you mentioned sort of the impetus. Like, you you don't wanna feed those to your kids. You know, at what point did, like, no seed oils pop up on your radar and, like, the importance of avocado oil and, like, when did regenerative become part of the equation for either the tortilla business, the restaurant, or did it start with El Nacho?

Joseph Cassinelli - 00:07:39
So the regenerative thing really came on my radar when we went to Expo West in 2024. Mhmm. That's when I started to see, some of the, you know, commodities like rice and cord and stuff start to be regen. And I was, you know, I was there with a friend and we were walking the aisles just being like, you know, this regen thing is cool because it's I'm I'm like at organic fatigue. Right. Because organic fatigue has become big business, and I thought that it was truer to itself regen. Like regen is good for the earth. It's regenerating the soil. Right?

Joseph Cassinelli - 00:08:01
And, organic has gone. Like, you can buy hydroponic organic lettuce. Right. It's it's not like, there's nothing organic about it. It's just they're slapping organic label on it. Didn't come from the soil. It's not coming from the earth. And that's big business. And so I saw Regen as being like a future into farming. Right?

Joseph Cassinelli - 00:08:20
Supporting farmers, like giving them a healthier alternative because these guys are trying to they wanna maximize their land and and grow a product that they can sell. And if they can get more dollars for, you know, organic or whatever, but the certification is, like, mind numbing for them. It's kind of too cumbersome. It doesn't make it any better. Right? It's like they're still using herbicides, pesticides, fungicides, insecticides. Right? They're just organic.

Joseph Cassinelli - 00:08:45
And that's what really the the it was like stripping it down into its natural essence of being the regen, just spoke something to me. You know, it spoke to me, like something triggered inside me. I was like, this is cool. And so we worked with our seed producer, seed farmer, and, you know, he was able to source some farmers that can supply us with regen. And then the trick was really, you know, getting certification, you know, finding the right balance because it's cumbersome for farmers. Yeah. I feel bad.

Joseph Cassinelli - 00:09:11
You know, I feel bad because, you know, we need a supply to go into business. We need a supply of the corn. They have to plant the corn, harvest the corn, dry you dry the corn. So, that's a long game. And I you know, it's something I'm I'm proud to be participating in now because I think it's gonna be a big part of our future. As far as the seed oil goes, you know, I'm in a restaurant business. We we use seed oil to fry, like, all our fryer fryers are seed oil.

Joseph Cassinelli - 00:09:36
And when we started out, we were we started out in seed oil and, you know, sunflower oil, and I really didn't think much of it. I don't necessarily buy into the seed oil is bad for you category. Right? Like, eating a pound of French fries is bad for you. Eating a pound of chips is bad for you. Everything in moderation, if it's clean, it's it's fine, as long as it's clean.

Joseph Cassinelli - 00:10:00
And I also found it kind of insulting to 99% of the population that can't afford to eat avocado oil. So I thought it was a little bit super tenuous. Now what we did find is that frying our chips and avocado oil did provide a cleaner flavor. And that was really the determining factor was when we we switch, when we started doing test batches and samples, we were like, wow. These actually taste better and cleaner, and we taste more of the spices and stuff coming through, the oil. Now I don't know why that happens. I'm not a scientist.

Joseph Cassinelli - 00:10:29
I'm just a chef. And when things taste better to me, like, I I roll with that. So, that's where we went. And it definitely puts us into a different market and different category.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:10:49
Did you did you find any similar, like, product performance improvement from the corn from the regen corn as well? Any elevated flavor or, sturdiness, anything like that, Joe, or no?

Joseph Cassinelli - 00:11:02
So the corn is, you know, without testing it, it is more nutritionally dense. And that was important to us because nixtamalizing the corn the way that we do, it enhances the the bioavailability of the nutrients in the corn. Right? So when you go to a dry product like corn me, corn meal, corn flour, or Maseca, you yes. The corn is nixtamalizing like Maseca, for example, but you don't have the same bioavailability of those nutrients. And when you're maximalizing, you're enhancing that and your your body's able to to digest those nutrients. Having regenerative leaf farm corn, ideally, yes, it is bringing it up in the spectrum of, like, it is more, you know, nutrient dense for you.

Joseph Cassinelli - 00:11:40
We did notice the slight flavor in the corn, you know, and and that could be from just the land being different where that corn was grown, you know, from a different farmer. Could be the strain of corn that they were using. So it's we're still very early in this game, so we haven't seen a chart of flavor profiles like we have in the past. So

Kyle Krull - 00:12:11
Joe, you mentioned nixtamalizing, and I see that on a bunch of tortilla bags. I don't really know what it means. I also see the volcanic stone ground, call out once every shift. So walk me through the process of nixtamalization, how that does or doesn't evolve volcanic stone ground, and why that's important both from the bioavailability perspective you mentioned earlier and, like, taste and authenticity.

Joseph Cassinelli - 00:12:32
Yeah. So, I mean, nixtamalization is so important to the making of tortillas and and, you know, making corn edible. So miximalization is a really important process. It it it enables humans to eat corn, or to get the nutrients from corn. It's an ancient Aztec technique that was used. You know, the Aztecs prayed to the god and, like, how do you make this corn, you know, edible for them? And it was certainly by happenstance that, they found this technique. There's a lot of history. There are a lot of tales that go about, like, how they came up with this, but it was the Aztecs that that founded it.

Joseph Cassinelli - 00:13:04
And they tried to, you know, give it to the Caucasian settlers and stuff when they came here, but they didn't listen to them. And, Native Americans here or, you know, indigenous people in The United States tried to give it to the settlers, and the settlers didn't listen, and they starved to death for their first winter because they didn't wanna listen to them how to, like, how to process the corn. But, really, it's like taking that corn and cooking it with lime or calcium hydroxide. And what that does is it softens the outside of the the corn husk and allows water inside the oil to come out, allows water to go in, but it changes the the the nutrient structure of the actual corn kernel, and enables us as humans to actually digest that corn. Right? When you talk about, like, feeding corn to cattle, corn for cattle is not nixtamalized. Right?

Joseph Cassinelli - 00:13:48
So that's why corn is so bad for cows because cows are not made to eat corn. They're made to eat grass. But if we were to actually nixtamalize that corn for cattle, we could raise all this corn all this beef on corn. Right? Because the Mhmm. Cows would be able to digest the the actual corn. That's a big part of the process. That's really the magic of making great tortillas.

Joseph Cassinelli - 00:14:06
And then the second half of that is the grinding. And it's time and temperature on the corn where you're cooking it and with the calcium hydroxide and letting it steep long enough to really, you know, do its magic. And then the grinding the texture of the stones. So Toby, again, who's the wizard, he's carving these stones. He's sharpening these stones with a a little grinder that, you know, we put these stones together and then we he adjusts that, you know, how those stones are why they are the millstones. Right? Just like you would at a flour mill.

Joseph Cassinelli - 00:14:45
He's adjusting that to get the perfect texture and perfect balance so that the moisture content that's in the core, we maintain enough of that, and get the right grind so that we can make the tortillas because it's important. We believe when making great tortilla chips, you have to start with a great tortilla. And your chips stop becoming great as soon as that tortilla is made. So if you're using a corn flour or corn meal or a must take it to start with your making tortilla chips, like, you're never gonna be better than what that is no matter what coatings you put on there. Right? So maintaining that, it's the same tortillas they use in the restaurants.

Joseph Cassinelli - 00:15:18
So the same tortillas that we're using at the restaurants to make tacos, or enchiladas or or, you know, flautas, we're using those to basically chop and fry for tortillas here. That's a it's a crucial part of, like, what we do. It's a it's a part of the craft that we are holding on to. It it diff it's a differentiator for us and truly what sets apart, like, the great tortilla. I mean, that's the magic. You know, once you bake that tortilla, anybody can cut and fry tortillas and throw season on them. Right? That's that's we're not landing spaceships.

Joseph Cassinelli - 00:15:47
The the magic is all like the cooking of the corn, the grinding of the corn, the making of the tortilla, and then that's like, then you know where you stand.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:16:04
Yeah. I feel like I I'm curious now to to ask you, Joe, like, about where the Luchador, branding came from or where the brand aesthetic came from because it's, like, very clear as to how the products differentiated in category from a product perspective. Right? Sourcing, ingredient, manufacturing. But this brand is super loud, bright, fun, unique. Like, what was the inspiration behind that, and how have you thought about that and and where it fits in the category?

Joseph Cassinelli - 00:16:30
So when we're coming up with a brand, we're really we're going back and forth. We wanted to have a lot of fun. We wanted to have a great, personality for the brand. We were trying to figure out, like, how do we become a lifestyle brand as well? Right? We're not just trying to make a product. We're we're not trying to just call it, you know, label it with something. We wanna create life.

Joseph Cassinelli - 00:16:40
We really wanna bring it to life. So we spent a lot of time thinking about it. We went through a lot of iterations, of what it was gonna be, and then we kinda went back to our childhood like we did on the on the packaging. So, like, I'm a huge comic book fan. Like, I've liked comic books my entire life, and I love the storytelling that goes along with that with, you know, animated figures. I was a wrestling fan when I was a kid, like, growing up watching WWF and WWE, and Toby's from Chihuahua would go to Luchador, you know, Lucha Libre Yeah.

Joseph Cassinelli - 00:17:06
Events. So Yeah. We kinda just put that together and we're like, let's create our own cast of characters. And what was important with Lucha Lucha Libre lifestyle is that these guys are heroes in their community. So they're they're beyond wrestlers. These are people that are idolized in their communities. They're due to a charity for their communities. They're outreach for their communities.

Joseph Cassinelli - 00:17:29
They're there's a lot of pride that comes from the communities where they're these people are from. And it's a very, like, you know, your average Joe can become a luchador. Like, you don't need to be a jacked up bodybuilder to be one. This is like, you know, any any guy with a passion, their heart is full and, like, wants to do this so they can do it, and embracing that lifestyle. So that was a huge part of us, our storytelling that we wanted to develop and and, you know, El Nacho was our our our main guy. One of my sons was identifying as a they them. So our origin story on El Nacho, we created a they them luchador.

Joseph Cassinelli - 00:18:07
And, when El Diablo came along, El Diablo was a rudo who's the bad guy at luchador, and, he ends up finding the good side and teaming up with El Nacho and creating that spicy chip. Miss Mango was a fangirl basically from an, you know, from a Mango farm who, idolized El Nacho, seeked him out at the coliseum, and, like, you know, she took her under her wing. They fell in love, and that's like that's they created, like, the Miss Mango. Yeah. Yopinha Yopinha is like the cousin. Right?

Joseph Cassinelli - 00:18:39
Like, little little dude, and he's like, Yopinha, don't forget about me. Like, I'm worried for Pineapple guy. So, yeah, like I mentioned, the the maker is a Scooby Doo van. Right? So she's got the Impala. So, you know, we cross into, like, wrestling.

Joseph Cassinelli - 00:18:51
The car is, like, lifestyle is, like, the car culture. We want to get into, you know, the bike on in on your opinion is like that activity, like outdoor lifestyle. We've got, another flavor coming up that, you know, we're try I'm trying to get a surfboard on it. I think that'll be a lot of fun. So it's you

Anthony Corsaro - 00:19:14
know, we wanted to appeal to

Joseph Cassinelli - 00:19:15
a lot of different demographics. We wanna be able to tell a big story with figures that are approachable, and that are not intimidating. And we are having a lot of fun with it so far.

Kyle Krull - 00:19:27
Yeah. I love the intentionality. I'm kind of following along on the website as you're describing each of these different characters. And even before we got here, you know, we we talk about, the Mango hot honey. You're like, oh, Miss Mango. Like, you refer to the SKU as the character. Yeah. And I love that level of dedication. And, yeah, it's super fun to see.

Kyle Krull - 00:19:40
I it's it's there's so much intentionality behind it, so much more than I had originally picked up even though I thought the brand was beautiful. For those who can't see, they're just listening. I mean, it's, like, bright yellow, black in your face, like, borderline superhero postures. It's it's just so much fun. So it's it's really cool to hear the origin story and how this all came about.

Joseph Cassinelli - 00:20:03
Yeah. The colors are important. We wanna have break you know, bright bold colors. And, honestly, we would I spent a lot of time at the grocery store, and I was just like, I gravitated to, like, things as a kid, like the Cheerio box or, you know, McDonald's or Burger King or In N Out Burger or I'm just in burger places right now. But, you know, those big loud presents, like, to captivate the kid because our our consumer is gonna evolve. Right? Like, we're people ask, like, who are you marketing after right now? And I was like, well, we're going after, like, Gen Alpha right now because Gen Alpha is gonna grow up and be our consumer later. And, you know, the millennials and the z's are like or x. Like, these are their kids, so they're buying a product for them.

Joseph Cassinelli - 00:20:35
And then the z is gonna grow up and, you know, they're gonna continue to buy. Millennials gonna grow up and buy and gen x, like, I'm borderline boomer. So, you know, it's just we we felt that it crossed all of the demographics and we could still cultivate a future consumer by integrity, like offering this product, getting them to grow up with us, so that the lung the longevity of the product is there as well. We don't wanna be a flash in the pan. We don't wanna just have a cool product and then, like, figure out, like, what do we do next? We wanna begin, like, this is chapter one, book one of, like, a big series.

Kyle Krull - 00:21:17
Yeah. And I'm so happy to hear that that level of intentionality is coming from a brand who truly cares about the farmers, about the product, about the nutrition levels. You know, it's to your point, like McDonald's, you know, Fruity Pebbles. Like, all all the other folks that are, like, targeting kids and doing it for, like, the wrong reasons, get them hooked on the bad food. Whereas it's, like, you're trying to get them hooked on the good stuff. It's so cool to see somebody competing at that level, and and at least in my perspective, like, doing a good job at it.

Joseph Cassinelli - 00:21:45
Yeah. I really appreciate that. It means a lot. And and when kids come in and they try the brand, like, we're we're next to a a gymnasium here, and the parents always bring their kids over and, like, we bring them into the factory, and the parents are, like, stunned. They're like, oh, I can't believe that you're making all this here. And, you know, we'll show them the chip line running, and we'll show them the chips. And then they turn the bag over and they're looking at it like, oh my gosh. Like, there's this is all clean ingredients. I'm like, yeah.

Joseph Cassinelli - 00:22:02
Like, take a couple bags and, like, like us on Instagram.

Kyle Krull - 00:22:11
Right.

Joseph Cassinelli - 00:22:12
It it's cool because that those kids are gonna, like, those kids are gonna grow up and be our consumer. You know? And and hopefully, more brands will do this. Right? Like, we need more brands to get into the region. We need more brands to, like, follow this path and it's gonna it takes a village. Right? It takes a bit a big, big village, from the farmers to, you know, you guys, what you're doing and spreading the word and, the different associations of certifications that are out there and and getting the buyers on board really and and getting the consumer ultimately to, like, make that decision at the cash register.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:22:46
I'm I'm thinking about as a millennial. Like, I have two overwhelmingly positive associations with luchadores. Obviously, Nacho Libre, the movie,

Joseph Cassinelli - 00:22:53
like Yeah. Yeah. Seriously. Like, you know, Jack Blackcomb will give me a call.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:22:58
Yeah. I mean but, like, you know, I've seen that movie however many times. Like, I still send voice notes to a buddy of mine where we quote the movie. Like, so, like, very positive. And then Rey Mysterio was, like, incredibly popular when I was coming up. I wasn't a huge wrestling person, but, like, he was, like, one of the top guys. I wonder if there's anything like that for Gen z or alpha, that I just wouldn't be aware of because I'm too old or anything. But just curious, like, think about that.

Joseph Cassinelli - 00:23:24
I'm shocked at the amount of, Lucha Libre underground there is. Really? It it's Yep. Yep. It's a it's a growing trend. And, like and and as this country diversifies and as the Latino culture starts to get what they're due in this country and be able to stake their claim and grow their culture into this country and has accepted more into this country, you're gonna see more of it. The fact that, you know, Ray Mysterio as a kid from the, you know, the nineties or eighties, it shows how it transcends culture. Yeah. Like it transcends borders. Like it's a, it's an amazing because they're good people. Like, they're they're just good people.

Joseph Cassinelli - 00:23:57
And I think that that speaks volumes to, the culture and, like, what we're trying to do. So it's it's all feel good stuff.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:24:11
Yeah. Yeah. And it's backed up by, like, real business economics. I mean, I remember in college, we had an international business class where they were talking about the changing demographics and how the Latino the purchasing power of Latinos was just gonna be insane, like, over the next few decades. And even last night, my girlfriend and I are eating at a Mexican quick service restaurant, and they have the it was I don't know what channel it is, but it's specifically just the Mexican soccer leagues. And all the commercials were for American brands, American restaurants, American things, all in Spanish and all completely dedicated and produced specifically for a Spanish speaking audience. And I was like, wow. Like, I've never actually even seen that. Like, that's that's wild. So yeah. Yep. Very, very cool.

Joseph Cassinelli - 00:24:50
I think it's awesome.

Kyle Krull - 00:24:52
I wanna pivot to you mentioned, like, it takes a village, takes the buyers, you know, the the category. I think I said this before we started recording, but it it's worth acknowledging that, you know, as a chip consumer, I was constantly torn between buying Siete, because of the avocado oil and buying Zacks money because of the regenerative fees. And I love that El Nasser sort of bridges those two things in. I also wanna give Zacks money credit for switching to avocado oil, which I think they're in the middle of that transition now. But when you start pitching your product to buyers and you're you're competing against those other two premium tortilla chip brands, how are you differentiating yourself? Is it more leaning into the brand and, like, who you're targeting? Is it the specific flavor profiles?

Kyle Krull - 00:25:25
Because it based on my perception as a primarily natural channel shopper, flavored tortilla chips are kind of hard to come by. So this is many questions in a row, and I hate that I keep doing this.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:25:43
Joe can handle it.

Kyle Krull - 00:25:44
Tell tell us a little bit about what what those pitches are like, where you're focused on your differentiation, how the buyers are responding.

Joseph Cassinelli - 00:25:50
Yeah. So the biggest reason that we switched to Regen corn and to avocado oil, when we originally launched this brand in 2023, we went out there as, we were white corn non GMO, tortilla chips, 12 ounce craft paper bag, really cool branding. You know, I don't know if you've seen our original stuff, but, you know, it's not dissimilar to what we have now. Actually, all the origin stories were on the back. It was we had more real estate to play with on the back. But as we went out to the market, we were weren't really getting credit for the attributes that we're putting inside the bag. Even though our chips were fantastic and tasted better than most of the competition in that category, we found that buyers were not as receptive because they saw it as, like, a one for one replacement.

Joseph Cassinelli - 00:26:21
So when you're talking to the buyers, it's like they don't really know the difference between, like, white corn, yellow corn, flea corn, den corn, corn meal, corn flour, a mustaica. Like, they just don't know. They're just to them, it's a

Anthony Corsaro - 00:26:41
tortilla chip, and you're supposed to be corn on it. IQ. Unfortunately. Hey.

Kyle Krull - 00:26:45
For for an evening

Joseph Cassinelli - 00:26:46
or three ninety nine on CPR. Right? And I was like, jeez, man. Like, it was frustrating. And so really, we went back and we looked at the data and, like, questioned ourselves. Like, you know, when you're a chef driven company, you're constantly questioning yourself. I think you have to be humble in this game and go to your consumer and say, like, what is important for the consumer? Right? What does the consumer need? Right? Like, it it it's like, Steve Jobs is famous for saying this. Like, don't develop the product from the engineering standpoint.

Joseph Cassinelli - 00:27:08
You develop the product from the consumer standpoint and work your way backwards. And we do that in the restaurant business all the time. Right? Like, what what can I get? How can I get people into my restaurant? What is the product they're looking for? And how do I provide it the best way?

Joseph Cassinelli - 00:27:20
And so we did that. And when we pivoted, we were like, let's up the game on the corn. Like, yeah, we were using non non GMO white corn. It was great. We we knew the farmer. That farmer worked with us, and and we were able to get some supply from them.

Joseph Cassinelli - 00:27:34
They have more coming, and then we switched to another farmer to backfill basically what what we could get, and that's where the flavor, you know, the change in the flavor profile, start to come in. But, that was a very important part of of the evolution. And when I looked at the data on the tortilla chip in the grocery category alone, it's a $4,000,000,000 category. 3,000,000,000 of that's owned by Frito Lay. So, you know, to to and that's just grocery. So, that's Tostitos and Santitas and, you know, Doritos. Right.

Joseph Cassinelli - 00:28:02
And the other billion dollars is made up by a bunch of smaller companies like us, like name the company Mission, Social, Menina, you know, on the border, Que Pasa, like, pick it. The biggest of those brands was Siete in late July. And when I looked at the growth of the other companies, it was really, like, plus or minus 1%. And the biggest movement is, like, CF Day late July. And I was asking myself, like, okay. So the consumer, this is what they're looking for.

Joseph Cassinelli - 00:28:31
Looking for a snack and chip that, is a healthier alternative with creative flavors. And that's specifically the market that we wanted to move into. So we took ourselves out of that 12 ounce paper bag kinda craft chip in in there, and we moved it into this other category. And that's where we're we're are seeing the success because that's where we wanna compete. So when we're pitching with a buyer, you know, if we look at it from a from a value standpoint over a Siete, we offer 40 to 50% value. We're offering a 10 ounce bag of chips, $5.99 SRP, as opposed to, like, a five and a half to 7.8 ounce bag, there.

Joseph Cassinelli - 00:29:06
You know, we're not, a grain free chip. We're we're corn chip, and our chips are very, very different than, Siete. The other part of it is, like, we make our chips. We don't co pack our chips. So that's Right. Gives us the artisanal side of this.

Joseph Cassinelli - 00:29:21
And then our flavoring profile, on the other side is it's not synthetic. Right? We're using real Mango juice, real pineapple juice, real honey powder, real corn, real chili. Like, this is real ingredients. Right? So there's no additives. There's no preservatives. And, you know, it's challenging. Right?

Joseph Cassinelli - 00:29:38
When you go to a buyer and you're like, you know, they wanna talk about price point, it's like, okay. Well, you want regen corn. You want avocado oil. You want better for you, but you want me to do it for less than Doritos. I'm like, I can't do it. Right.

Joseph Cassinelli - 00:29:54
Like, you either wanna you either wanna play. Right? You either wanna step up to the plate. Like, I hear your problem. I hear your problem is you wanna provide a product to your consumer in your store, in your innovative set that speaks to what the consumers are looking for today. But you gotta work with us. Like, we're not like, I'm like, I'm at ground level here. I can't go down anymore.

Joseph Cassinelli - 00:30:14
If I go down anymore, I don't exist as a company. You don't get innovation. So Right. It's really important. You know, when I say it takes a village, it's like you gotta get the buyers involved. And then the consumer has to be willing to pay a little bit more for that.

Joseph Cassinelli - 00:30:27
But as a category, I think it's important that you start to develop, a a new top three, right, in a category. Potato chips have seen a lot of innovation over the over the years. Tortilla chips have not seen that type of innovation. And so when we're able to come into the market with, innovative flavors like our and I can get into the flavors, but, when you start to come in with, like, really truly innovative flavors, there's never been a Mango chip. There's never been a pineapple chip. There's never, you know, we've got another really cool flavor coming out that hasn't existed before. So, that is driving trial.

Joseph Cassinelli - 00:30:57
And once people try it, they're like, oh, man. Like like I said, I'm a I'm a blue bag Doritos guy, like, since I was a little kid. But when I go back to them now, when I, like, do you buy that bag of blue, you know, Cool Ranch?

Anthony Corsaro - 00:31:20
Yeah.

Joseph Cassinelli - 00:31:21
It doesn't satiate me the way it used to. Because I've become so used to eating the better for you version, and the the texture of the the texture of the chip is completely different. Right? When gosh, guys, I could talk about this forever, but, you know, when when when you try try a chip.

Kyle Krull - 00:31:37
This is When you're podcasting, so do you like

Anthony Corsaro - 00:31:38
This is one of your thoughts. I don't think

Joseph Cassinelli - 00:31:40
I I mean, when you're trying these chips, right, when you challenge yourself, when you go to the store and you're trying these chips, you try all these different flavors, like, like let that chip sink on your palate, right? When you're, when you're eating a, a chip that's that's stone ground nixtamalized white corn, It arch it eats like a pastry. It's flaky in your mouth. It doesn't dry your mouth out. You don't get that. Like, like, I need to drink something. I need a glass of water or something to chase it down.

Joseph Cassinelli - 00:31:58
When you're dealing with, like, product starts dry, you're always gonna like, your palate dries out. It becomes crumbly and, like, it it, like, sticks in your mouth. So these are things that, like, big companies can't do. And it's we're nimble enough and and at the level where this is always gonna be our mission. Our mission is always gonna be to start with great tortillas and make chips. Like, all the guys come in with all the equipment. Right?

Joseph Cassinelli - 00:32:24
They're like, you can be more efficient if you, like, do this and, like, you know, form your chips before you bake them, and you don't have to cut them. And it's like, yeah. But that's part of the texture chip. Those edges, those cut edges create part of the texture. They allow the oil to, like, get inside the chip. Right? If you precut your chips and then bake them, now you have sealed edges. Right?

Joseph Cassinelli - 00:32:42
So the oil, the flavors can penetrate. When you're baking and then cutting and then frying, you've opened up the edges of that chip to allow the flavors to get in there. Right? Like, it's totally different. But, yeah, that's part of that's part of the what differentiates like, a true art easement shift. Do buyers understand all this? Do they care about all this? No.

Joseph Cassinelli - 00:33:03
Not all the time, but some of them do. Like, some of them are starting to geek out. Like, there's a generational shift in the buyers. Right? Like, a lot of the older traditional buyers are phasing out and there are newer people are coming in and and we're just smarter about food today. And we care about the details.

Joseph Cassinelli - 00:33:24
And so I think that that's a big part of our mission statement is is caring about the details so that we can give that best product to the consumer. But I think it's important. I think the more brands that jump on, you know, or or become involved in in these movements, the better. It redefines the category. It it says to the consumer, like, oh, wow. This is, like, this is real.

Joseph Cassinelli - 00:33:43
Like, this is a big thing that we can be involved with, and, they're gonna like my chips better than other person's chips, and they're gonna like those chips better than they like my chips. And that's all cool. It's a giant category, and there's plenty of room for everybody. It's it's just preference. Right? And then and so our job is to, like, have a lot of fun with the brand, create bold, exciting flavors, which is, like, what we're doing.

Joseph Cassinelli - 00:34:02
I mean, our flavors are coming from a place at the restaurants. Right? Like, Miss Mango comes from, you know, a Mango salsa on a mahi mahi taco. The the pineapple barbecue comes from the pineapple salsa on a carnitas taco. So they're coming the the spices are coming from a mole. Right?

Joseph Cassinelli - 00:34:16
So the flavors are coming from an or origin. We're not throwing darts at the wall saying like, let's try this. Let's try that. Right? Like, we're not using chemicals. We're not putting things in a centrifuge and spinning them and taking this oil and this oil and putting it together, which is how a lot of products are created.

Joseph Cassinelli - 00:34:30
That's in synthetic products. Right? Like people are always amazed when they eat our Diablo chips. They're like, they're like, how spicy is it? I'm like, try it because the spice is is like eating chilies. It's not a synthetic heat.

Joseph Cassinelli - 00:34:44
Synthetic heat, when you put it in your mouth, you're like, your tongue tongue lights on fire. That's synthetic heat. Using real chilies is a gradual progression because the capsaicinoids in your, in your mouth are hitting your taste buds. Right? The capsaicinoids from the heat from the chilies is mixing with your mouth and your taste buzz, and the flavor is developing. It's building.

Joseph Cassinelli - 00:35:01
So, like, the crescendo, there's a little sweetness. Like, oh, now there's a sweetness to it. But that's the that's the, you know, that's the geeky side of it that people don't realize is going into the ship, but that's secretly what's making them fall in love with them.

Kyle Krull - 00:35:23
Yeah. Yeah. Joe, I I give this new wax for what I talk about chip flavors.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:35:26
So we do.

Kyle Krull - 00:35:27
I don't know how many episodes. No. I'm serious. And it it it brings me back to the first bag I had of El Nacho, and I vividly remember being in my backyard. And I, on a regular basis, almost every day of the week, I get a thing of cottage cheese, and chips, and I just brush cottage cheese with chips. And I remember on this particular instance, I was trying the Miss Mango for the first time, and the hook for me was actually not the Mango. It was the hot honey. I was like, that sounds intriguing. I really wanna try that chip.

Kyle Krull - 00:35:49
And I remember finishing the cottage cheese, and I just could not put the bag down. I crushed the entire bag, and I remember thinking to myself afterwards, like, when was the last time I opened a whole bag of chips and ate the entire thing in one? I can't say city because I was kinda standing and walking around my backyard. But at one time and I vividly remember sending a picture to Justin Mayers, the the founder of Gentlemen Fire. And because he loves tortilla, it was like, dude, you've got to try these. These are insane.

Kyle Krull - 00:36:14
And it the these chips do have that kind of effect in hearing you talk about the level of intentionality and the flavor profiles and the way you cook and prepare the chips. Like, now I understand why I couldn't put the bag down. Yeah.

Joseph Cassinelli - 00:36:31
And then it comes through. Yeah. And and and we're listening too, like, the feedback. Like, we're like, we change our flavors are developing as we get consumer feedback too. Like, there's no, like, set it and forget it here. It's like we've adjusted the spice on Diablo. We went from, like, really spicy when we started. We toned it down. We got feedback. Like, oh, no. It's spicy enough. Like, let's turn it back up. Like, this Mango didn't have a lot of spice.

Joseph Cassinelli - 00:36:48
Now she has more spice. So, we had a like, she wanted to

Anthony Corsaro - 00:36:57
be a little hotter, so we made her a little hotter.

Joseph Cassinelli - 00:37:00
The smoky, like, on the pina, like, he was too smoky, so we toned him down and then, like, you know, it's it's very much an evolution. And so it's hearing your feedback is so awesome. I mean, I really appreciate that. That's exactly the feedback that we want, exactly like the reaction that we want. We want you to crave the old fashioned chips and crush a bag and share it with your friends. That's I couldn't ask for anything more.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:37:23
Yeah. Yeah. It's very evident that, this is chef formulated and curated, and I also wanna, like, acknowledge the humility to not make that the focal point of the brand. I think it'd be really easy to do that. But it's it would be a very artisanal strategy versus, like, hey. We actually wanna grow this into a regional national brand. So those are just two observations as we we chatted through all that. Joe, I do wanna spend just a little bit more time maybe on the regen ag piece, and hear you speak to more about, like, the operations of integrating that supply. You mentioned kind of a pain in the ass to figure out certifications and deal with the farmers.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:37:54
Like, give us a little bit more on what that process has been like. And as you think about growth, continuing to have, like, identity preserved regenerative certified supply, how does that affect the way that you're gonna plan and and do things?

Joseph Cassinelli - 00:38:10
So it it's important to have, you know, on the supply side, a great partner in the farming network. Because you gotta have those lines of communication open for demand. Right? Like, as we increase demand, we need more corn. We don't wanna run out of corn. Right. So it's there's a lot of faith. There's a lot of trust right now in, you know, us executing on our side. Like, we have a lot of I have a lot of responsibilities. Right?

Joseph Cassinelli - 00:38:27
That here Toby and I are responsible for, you know, not only all the employees here at the at the factory, but we're responsible for the farmers. Right? If if our product sucks, people don't buy it. Now what happens to the corn that they're they're growing? Right? So you need the you need the consumer buy in there too. It's challenging. Right? It's really challenging. Like, we were we were thought about going, ROC at one point.

Joseph Cassinelli - 00:38:51
Mhmm. We chose not to go ROC just because of, the organic on the avocado oil for us was, it didn't make sense for us financially.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:39:12
It's hard to find at the right price.

Joseph Cassinelli - 00:39:14
It's hard to find, and and it was really, like, not in my eyes, it's not necessary. I think that the the regenerative farming in and of itself is is superlative to any other farming happening right now. Right? It really is as, like, true to the roots as you can possibly get. And that and the farmers, I think, appreciate that. It's it's not a huge lift for them, but it is challenging. Like, you gotta remember, like, these guys are, you know, they're working hard to grow corn. And Yeah.

Joseph Cassinelli - 00:39:36
You know, the certification process for some of them can be overwhelming. You know, some farmers are trying to get certified with multiple different agencies, and some are just like, listen, man. Like, I'm I'm good here with this company, but, like, I can't do this this much paperwork over here. Like, it's at some point, it becomes too cumbersome for the farmer. And so, like, really developing the relationship is important. And then, like I said, forecasting.

Joseph Cassinelli - 00:40:03
Like, our our only one that's not regen right now is the blue corn chip that we sell. But that crop is planted for us, and we'll we'll have that harvested in, in November. So we'll have that supply come in. We'll switch over to regen on the blue corn, side as well. But it it it's important for the messaging, you know, that you guys are doing, that, some of the retailers are doing, trying to build the innovation sets and focusing on regen. I think there's more marketing dollars, unfortunately, with, like, some of these regen certifications than there are with others.

Joseph Cassinelli - 00:40:40
I think they're they're unnecessarily skewing opinion to one side or the other, whether it's like, you know, ROA versus AGW versus regen versus, you know, I think I think the tribes all gotta come together here and and say, like, if we wanna grow this as a as a group, we gotta work together. Like, this this can't be an Us versus you. Like, there's not gonna be the the non GMO butterfly seal project for a region. Right? It's too big. It's it's just it's just way, way too big for that. I think it's a message that, you know, I I don't know how to get that.

Joseph Cassinelli - 00:41:16
I don't I don't know how to get that across, I guess. I don't know how you can get these companies to understand that, because it came down to really, like, our launch in the Whole Foods. Like, so we were trying to get our SKUs approved by Whole Foods. And at the time, AGW was not an approved vendor for Regen. Right? They were in there for their they were they were in there they were in there for, humane practices, right, for animals and welfare.

Joseph Cassinelli - 00:41:48
But the only ones that were available was really, like, ROA was Regen, and there's one other I can't remember. And so we're, like, market Yeah.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:42:02
Landmark and identified. Yeah. So we were working really closely with

Joseph Cassinelli - 00:42:06
the AGW. It was like, listen. Are you guys gonna get approved? Like, we're trying to get approved. Like, are you gonna get approved? Like, so I gotta print bags. Like, I gotta buy corn. Like, this guy's gonna play corn. Like it was a real struggle. I mean, we got lucky. I think we got lucky with finding a farmer that, like, had crop available. And AGW was able to, like, to help us through that process.

Joseph Cassinelli - 00:42:18
I mean, we were close, and there was a point where I was try I sent out to try to certify farm, but it was too late because that farmer had already harvested the crop and the crop has to be in the ground before they can get certified. So some of these, like, you know, entry points for the farmers can be a little cumbersome. And I don't think the messaging is clear to them yet. Right? Because there's Yeah. A lot of farmers that really don't know much about the business side of region. Right?

Joseph Cassinelli - 00:42:46
These can be, like, fourth, fifth, sixth generation farmers that have been doing the same thing over and over again. I mean, hey. Listen. Like, what are we like, less than 10% of the corn that's grown in this country. Right? We consume as humans. Right? The rest of it goes to commodity.

Joseph Cassinelli - 00:42:56
So we need the consumer to really embrace it, right, with messaging and making this, like, a better for the Earth mission. Right? Like, we big business did it with, organics, and we need big business to to, like, kind of get on board with the region. They're starting to. Right? I mean, they're doing it for profit for dollars, and they're not being able to save the earth. Right?

Joseph Cassinelli - 00:43:24
They're doing it because they see market share, and they may be losing it with organic. But I think it's part of the part of the process. Right? You're not gonna do this by ourselves. And we need the economies of scale that maybe some of the bigger players can bring to it. Right?

Joseph Cassinelli - 00:43:33
Like, if a big player can get a little much larger crop planted for region, then it maybe opens up the supply for smaller brands like ourselves to be able to have access to that regen stuff. But, you know, educating the consumer and educating the buyers is is really important. I think the certification process needs to be streamlined. You know, it's it's still a bit cumbersome, right, to get certified and go through the certification process. I think there's a lot of messaging that needs to be done for, you know, to the consumers is like, you know, tapping into like that this is actually better for you. It's not only better for the earth, it's better for you. Right? You're getting more, more nutrient dense food, which is more important in today's society. Right?

Joseph Cassinelli - 00:44:18
Everybody's so concerned with like back of pack and like how many grams of protein am I getting? It's like, listen, you're not gonna build muscle by eating like, you know, protein waffles. Like it's not gonna happen, but like, there's like, you know, there's, there's like a numbing effect of like, there's throwing protein and everything. I'm like, let's throw protein in the tortilla chips. And like, we can be protein tortilla chips too. It's like, I'm not sure if we're gonna have big muscles.

Joseph Cassinelli - 00:44:41
It's like, no, it's like, you gotta like, at some point, step back and say, Eat foods that are clean, eat foods that are good for you. Eat things in moderation and have a diverse diet. And I think that that's really the ultimate message that the consumer needs. Like, I think a lot of people are looking for the band aid fix, right? If I buy this shape or I buy this drink, like, I'm gonna, like, shed 20 pounds. And, I can skip four meals today because I had, you know, protein enhanced whatever for dinner.

Joseph Cassinelli - 00:45:10
It it's, you know, our our country is very immature when it comes to nutrition. Like, we're just we don't get it. Right? Like, we've bought in, we've drank the Kool Aid pun intended of, like, all the sugary stuff. And now we're drinking the Kool Aid on, like, everything being fixed by, like, you know, more protein, more fiber, more of this. But there's a lot of raw products out there. Just eat bread from your local bakery. Get a sourdough starter. Like, make bread at home. Like, start there. Right?

Joseph Cassinelli - 00:45:37
Like you can use that starter for a million different things. It's gonna be better for you than that, like, loaf of bread you're buying from the store. Eat more whole foods and vegetables, like fruits and vegetables, like start there. Right? Right? You want anti inflammatories, like eat some cherries, eat some, like, eat some grapes, have some melon, have some water, like, eat some apples. Right? Eat an orange.

Joseph Cassinelli - 00:45:56
Like, eat more in, you know, put more of this food in your diet. Like, yes, I understand there's, like, economics involved and, like, the entire population can't eat this and, that they're, you know, it's very unfortunate that the government subsidizes so much of our our crops and their corn and like, you know, pushes us into corn syrups and corn sugars and like fuel. And unfortunately that becomes like, you know, what some people can afford to eat in this country. Right? Like, I I was down the street from one of my restaurants, and I was at a gas station, and I went in to to to pay for the gas. And there's a subsidized housing behind, behind the gas station.

Joseph Cassinelli - 00:46:39
And this this kid was in there, and he was buying, you know, a bag of bag of chips, you know, just bag of Doritos. He was buying, you know, soda. He was buying, like, one of those, like, hot dogs out of the the little rolly thing.

Kyle Krull - 00:46:59
Eternally rolling hot dogs?

Joseph Cassinelli - 00:47:01
Yeah. I mean, his whole purchase was, like, probably under $4. And it was just really sad to me that, like, that's the type of food that's available to a certain income. And we're doing that for ourselves in this country. Right? Like, the more brands that embrace, you know, better for you goods, better for you foods, the more available it will be. Like, we do have to, at some point, hold ourselves accountable for what we're producing in this country. And and consumers that have dollars have to make that decision.

Joseph Cassinelli - 00:47:24
They have to stop, you know, spending their dollars on brands that aren't doing the right thing. But a lot of times it's easy. Right? Because you get that big bulk pack, you can get a 24 pack and you're saying, you know, you're getting this, like, unbelievable deal for $9.99. You're getting, like, 40 servings. Like, I get it, man. I got four kids.

Joseph Cassinelli - 00:47:43
Like, it's expensive to feed all the miles, but you can do a lot with the grocery store, with a small budget. And I know I've gotten off subject here a little bit because it's it's something that It's like I well, it's like it's near and dear in my heart. Right? Because it does go back to, like, the farming practices. Right? It's like, where does the farm come from? What part of the farming is subsidized?

Joseph Cassinelli - 00:48:01
Like, how big is, like, organic agriculture gotten? And it and it's and for no reason, it's priced organic ag, like, higher than it needs to be. It doesn't need to be the expensive. It's it's it's press gouging. It's like part it's margin. Like, it's it's greed.

Joseph Cassinelli - 00:48:17
And I think regen is a way for, a much more natural farming to take place that is really, like, going back to, like, you know, the eighteen hundreds and nineteen hundreds of, like, the way the crop should be grown, like having a biodiverse farm. Right? Like, having chickens and cows and corn and, like, cover crops on that farm to, like, support that farm and, like, whatever you can produce to sell. Right? Like, that's an important part of, like, where this country needs to move. Other countries are able to do this. Right? Like, we're not we're not asking anything big here.

Joseph Cassinelli - 00:48:47
Like, we have the real estate to do it. We've got the resources to do it. We just need big business to put the dollars behind it and get the consumer to demand it, because they do it in other countries. And, man, when you, like, try to rock the boat over there, the farmers get together and they have a riot and they, like, block trucks and they, like, you know, smash bottles and they go berserk. Right? When you try to rock the boat and you're like, what are you doing? I think we just need to be more passionate about it.

Joseph Cassinelli - 00:49:18
I think that that's it it's messaging. Like, we you know, it'd be great to have, like, one big overarching, like, you know, big daddy to show up and say like, hey, guys. Come on. Everybody's gonna play nice in the playground, or we're never gonna get this thing going. You know? We'll see what happens, but I'm hoping for the best. Yeah.

Joseph Cassinelli - 00:49:34
You just need more and more brands coming on board. Yeah. Yeah. You guys doing that. Right? Yeah. We're trying to bring everybody together. Right? Like, it's important. Right?

Joseph Cassinelli - 00:49:41
We gotta play together.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:49:49
Trying.

Joseph Cassinelli - 00:49:50
It's a big sandbox. It's a big sandbox. Right? Like, you

Anthony Corsaro - 00:49:55
The brands and the retailers have to lead, and you need some sort of middle person. So hopefully, the coalition can be that. I mean, we're we're actually trying to work on that. We're not hiding that. But

Joseph Cassinelli - 00:50:05
Yeah.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:50:05
You know, there there has to be critical massive brands and retailers that agree, hey. We're gonna we're gonna roll this kind of framework. We have someone that can help execute it, and then they can work with the certifiers to kind of create some more harmony. So we'll see.

Joseph Cassinelli - 00:50:19
Yeah. No. It's really important. It'll it'll happen. You know? It's just it's the willingness for people to, like, accept regenerative agriculture as what's important. But this is important. It's important for your kids. It's important for the future. It's just important. You know? You know,

Kyle Krull - 00:50:33
on that note, Joe, I'd love to to hear your version of what's actually happening on the farm. So, like, if you could paint the picture for us for, like, a traditional conventional corn farm and what's happening on an AGW certified regenerative farm, and how are those things different?

Joseph Cassinelli - 00:50:48
Well, the dust bowl. Right? Like, everybody goes in and and you, you know, becomes commodity. And those farmers are sub you know, a lot of that corn is subsidized, right, because they're growing it and it's subsidized by the government. And so, you know, they're guaranteed x amount of dollars for x amount of land that's planted. That in and itself is a problem. And when you're looking at, like, mass produced corn, like, we're just conventional corn, you're talking about, you know, engineered corn. Right? So it's coming from, like, Monsanto or Conagra, and that corn is, you know, the fertilizer's inside that corn hurdle and the pestilizer inside that corn hurdle.

Joseph Cassinelli - 00:51:17
And, those farmers are driven by yield. Right? Like, how much yield can I possibly guess? It's not qual it's not quality. It's quantity. Mhmm.

Joseph Cassinelli - 00:51:25
And then in in some cases, they're they're guaranteed a minimum. So even if their corn doesn't come in, they're they're stripping that earth, of all the nutrients. They're tilling that soil. They're releasing all of all the nutrients, all the carbon dioxide. They're releasing all that nitrogen into the air, and they're trying to replace it with, like, an engineered corn that has that stuff packed inside, which is horrible for us to eat. You know, conversely, when you go to a farm that is using, you know, regenerative farming and they're they have the appropriate amount of corn that can grow on the appropriate amount of soil, with the appropriate amount of nutrients.

Joseph Cassinelli - 00:51:59
And, k, guess what? They're able to get more use out of that land because they don't have to let it go dormant because they can plant their cover crops and they're not tilling their soil. They're not irrigating as much as they they would have to with the other. They don't have their giant sprayers, like, you know, going all over, like, you know, just wasting water where, like, 50% of that's evaporating into the air before it even hits the crop. They're able to go, you know, right to the roots. That is just such a healthy alternative. You've got cover crops that are bringing in pollinators. Right?

Joseph Cassinelli - 00:52:33
So now pollinators are coming in and, you know, it's not happening maybe directly on the farm, but, hey, those trees that were growing across the street, that wild grass that was across the street that was all dry is now full of wild flowers and it's full of, you know, trees and saplings and stuff that are coming back to life. So that's part of also the regeneration. Right? It's not just the soil that's on that farm. It's the regeneration of the surrounding community. When you have a crop that's growing and then you have cover, you know, a cover crop, whether it's, I don't know, clover or whatever it may be, and it's bringing in pollinators.

Joseph Cassinelli - 00:53:07
Anytime you're encouraging pollinators to come into your space, you're encouraging, you know, flowers and flora all over your community. And just imagine a world. Right? It's like that bee movie. Right? Where all the pollen, like, disappears and Mhmm.

Joseph Cassinelli - 00:53:28
You know, and then all of a sudden the carpet rolls out and everything's breeding it because the bees came back. It's like that's we're seeing in the bees too. Right? Like there's, there's so many different, different things that are happening with, with, with responsible farming. These farmers are providing like our nutrients for our life. Like I think we have to give a lot of respect and a lot of props to the farmers and listen, I know enough to be dangerous.

Joseph Cassinelli - 00:53:52
I am not an expert in this field at all. Right. Like I'm learning too, but my, my drive is coming from like putting one and one together as two and realizing that like, Hey, if I'm willing to spend a little bit more on this corn, then I'm helping a farmer be more responsible than ultimately, like, I'm helping the world become a better place. And it's like incremental. Like, it's so incremental. Mhmm.

Joseph Cassinelli - 00:54:18
If more people would just adapt that philosophy and be on the incremental change, not living, like, at the front of their nose, seeing beyond it, I think you'd see, like, just a massive explosion in this type of, like, farming. And it's also, you know, for for raising cattle, raising livestock and and chickens. And it runs it's sorry. I get tongue tied when I get so fired up about something because I'm just like, what? Like, why don't people get this?

Kyle Krull - 00:54:50
Yeah. It's like, why

Joseph Cassinelli - 00:54:51
don't people don't understand it? It's like, come on. It's so easy. Yeah.

Kyle Krull - 00:54:55
And what what I love about the word incremental that you use, what brands to me like, what brands like El Nafs do is they allow for incrementality with less barrier. Right? You're creating a product that is so approachable for people who might want it to trade up and still have a fun, delicious, unique, interesting, something to consider that they wanna share with friends. Whereas I'm thinking about and this is a terrible example because it's not necessarily a good Filipino, like, Grape Nuts. Right? As a kid, if Grape Nuts were like, the this is the right thing to do. It's like, nobody wants to eat Grape Nuts as a cereal. You know?

Kyle Krull - 00:55:19
So it's like you've you've managed to put everything you just described into a really compelling product, and in a package that's appealing. And that's what we need is more brands doing what you all are doing. And it's it's just really cool to see.

Joseph Cassinelli - 00:55:40
I appreciate that. Barrier to entry is, you know, low low price point for, like, quality. It's, like, so important. You gotta get trial and get people to be like, oh, I can have something that's good for me and tastes awesome. And it's not killing my bank. Right? It's like not busting the bank. Like, you can you're for us to be on shelf at $5.99 for, like, regen corn, avocado oil, like white corn nixtamalized in the house.

Joseph Cassinelli - 00:55:54
Like, it's insane, the value proposition. So just getting the getting the consumer, like, try it. Like, you know, become a believer and then demand that your other brands do the same.

Kyle Krull - 00:56:12
On that point, what all oh, sorry. AC, you go ahead.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:56:15
Yeah. I wanna ask about that and and one other question. So kind of a two pronged one, Joe. Like, you mentioned everything from farm stands to potentially trying to get in Whole Foods nationally. Like, how are you thinking about growth strategy? Is the brand really focused on grocery, or is there all channels that you think are gonna be really important to this? I'm assuming you're really focused on natural since you went to Expo West this year and, like, you applied for NextEase and all that. And then from a from a specific, like, how are you thinking about driving trial, and what do you think is important, for that?

Joseph Cassinelli - 00:56:43
So for us, we we are focused on a lot of different channels. It's hard to say, like,

Anthony Corsaro - 00:56:48
focused on a lot of different things.

Joseph Cassinelli - 00:56:49
Yeah. But it's you can be very surgical about how you do this. Right? Like, there are certain natural channels that we wanna be in. Like, we're launching in Sprouts or Fresh Thyme. We're launching in Whole Foods here at the East Coast in in, August. And it's really great brand presence for us. That's really like a feather in our cap. We're really proud of it. We're very grateful to the buyers that are that are giving us the opportunity.

Joseph Cassinelli - 00:57:05
But we believe to really be mainstream with region, you have to go beyond natural, The natural channel. Like, you know, we're talking to, you know, seven eleven. You talk to Meyer. You talk to Albertsons. You talk to, like, these Yeah. People that are are offering snacks. Right? We've we're looking we're in food service. Right?

Joseph Cassinelli - 00:57:25
We're with US Foods. So, offering, you know, a snack at your sub shop that is regen avocado tortilla chip. Like, it doesn't exist. Like, it's really cool. And as these boutique eateries pop up, like those boutique sandwich shops, boutique coffee shops, like, we're now offering a product that's, like, very different. It's a snackable product that, is very high on the quality scale with regen or whatever, where they might have gravitated towards, like, a potato chip.

Joseph Cassinelli - 00:57:51
Now they're gravitating towards a tortilla chip. So that's an important avenue for us, the all channel, convenience stores, gas stations, you know, with our snack bags, conventional, of course. And then we'll probably, like, start dabbling, like, club sales probably 2026. But that'll be, like, a really targeted thing for us. But you gotta drive, trial through sampling and through you know, have a good merchandising partner and, you know, offering those coupons and demos and, like, being humble about it. Like, we you have a great product, and we're not chasing the margin right now for us. Like, we're it's healthy, but we gotta focus on the consumer. Right?

Joseph Cassinelli - 00:58:29
Like, any restaurant, when you open a new restaurant, your first couple years is about building loyalty and building consumer confidence and building yourself up for, like, trust Yeah. And integrity. And that's what we're in the process to do right now.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:58:50
Nice.

Kyle Krull - 00:58:52
I gotcha. This is a nice one, bro. I was gonna ask a similar question. Like, what are you doing to drive trial? And it sounds like, you know, demo merchandising, passive demos. You know? I'm I'm really interested in, is there a smaller package for some of the old channel that you're talking about?

Joseph Cassinelli - 00:59:07
So we have the 2.7 ounce bag that we sell. Okay. We launched as well. Yep. That's been super popular. So seven eleven's gonna, put us in their stores. They're gonna start in in the Texas area. You know, we're talking to groups for, like, stadiums, cruise ships, event venues, hotel chains, send samples at Disney.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:59:29
There we go.

Joseph Cassinelli - 00:59:30
But, like, let's see let's let's see what happens.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:59:32
You know, you get

Joseph Cassinelli - 00:59:32
Mickey on the lucha deer lucha lucha. Yeah. You know, Mickey mask.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:59:37
Yeah.

Joseph Cassinelli - 00:59:37
But I think it's just like looking at the the landscape very differently. You know, retail is very challenging to to be successful in. There's a lot of players in the field. You know, retailer margins are they always wanna be margin whole. Those margins are very big. And there are some other old channels that, can be more lucrative. Yeah. We're we're kind of exploring all of that right now.

Kyle Krull - 01:00:04
Nice.

Joseph Cassinelli - 01:00:05
And and and owning again, owning the manufacturing, making everything, being nimble with flavors and bag size and and pack size, and order size gives you the availability to or ability to tap into some of these old channels in a quick manner.

Kyle Krull - 01:00:22
Yeah. Yeah. Sounds like you have plenty going on. There's a there's a lot to do. No doubt. You've mentioned this a couple times that we always have to ask, and you do not have to answer this. So I apologize if I'm being nosy, but, like, any chance you could give us, like, a sneak peek or a hint of what the new flavor might be?

Joseph Cassinelli - 01:00:38
Yeah. We're we're working on a vegan cool ranch.

Kyle Krull - 01:00:42
Oh, okay. Okay. Nice. Yeah.

Anthony Corsaro - 01:00:44
Yeah. Nice.

Joseph Cassinelli - 01:00:45
Vegan vegan cool ranch. And there's one added twist to it too, but I'll go vegan cool ranch. Okay.

Anthony Corsaro - 01:00:52
I'm looking forward to seeing the luchador that's on the cover of that one.

Joseph Cassinelli - 01:00:55
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Laurent Sierra. Laurent Sierra. I love it. I love it.

Kyle Krull - 01:01:00
The dark blue, you know, and the yellow, I'm assuming.

Joseph Cassinelli - 01:01:04
I'll send you the preview.

Kyle Krull - 01:01:06
Okay. Okay. Very nice. Password protected link.

Joseph Cassinelli - 01:01:09
Yeah.

Kyle Krull - 01:01:11
Yeah. This message will self destruct.

Anthony Corsaro - 01:01:14
This has been great, man. Thank you. Super informative, super fun. Last question that we ask everybody, which I'm sure you'll have an interesting take on is, how do we get ReGen Brands at 50% market share by 2050? What do we need to do? Other than have El Nacho join the ReGen Brands coalition, which sounds like that's gonna for sure happen. But other than that, Joe, what do we need to do?

Joseph Cassinelli - 01:01:37
To get everybody on board, you know, we gotta get the consumer messaging out there. The consumer is the answer.

Anthony Corsaro - 01:01:45
Yeah.

Joseph Cassinelli - 01:01:45
We we gotta get the consumer trial on board and and and, you know, build up the hype over region. Like, why it's so important. I mean, hey. You know, like, couple celebrities wouldn't help and, like, doesn't take much. Just think it's a there's a little fire started. There's a little kindling. It needs a little bit more kindling, but I think that if you light that fire, it's gonna be a razier. And And I think that that's something that's gonna be

Kyle Krull - 01:02:09
major the major potential unlock to get that, you know, smoldering, kindling starter fire to, like, the full blown, like, this is this is a culture and that people understand this. I mean, could you potentially just slow it down to, like, this is the one thing that needs to happen, or is that an oversimplification?

Joseph Cassinelli - 01:02:26
I think it's a bit of an oversimplification because it's it's the consumer has to demand it. If the consumer demands it game over, right, maybe that is simplified. It's how you get the consumer to demand it. But once the consumer is demanding regen, you know, it's it's it's game over for a really good work. There there we can modify our food supply chain. We can do it. We're doing it now. Right? Like, we're banning stuff now. Mhmm.

Joseph Cassinelli - 01:02:47
As soon as it's demanded and it's made, like, this is what has to happen Mhmm. Like, all the big companies are gonna fall in line. Listen. They've been able to do it in other countries, sell the same product, similar product in other countries for, like, all this time, but they're feeding us crap. So if the consumer demands it, it'll change.

Kyle Krull - 01:03:12
I think you're right. And I think, you know, this is obviously my personal bias and experience, but the interesting thing to me about a regenerative consumer is it's not necessarily like a fad diet. It's not like keto or paleo over Whole30. I think there's a longevityness to the movement that once you're in on regenerative, you're not really gonna go out. It's never not gonna be important to you.

Joseph Cassinelli - 01:03:33
No. When you used to go into Whole Foods, you used to see the farmers in the signs. Right? Like, you used to be able to connect with, like, this came from this orchard. You know, this came the the asparagus came from here. Right? We're trying to build that into our future story. We're trying to, like, identify the farmer. Like, a lot of people wanna hide their sources. Right?

Joseph Cassinelli - 01:03:46
You wanna hide, here's Joe getting his corn from that he can grow blah blah blah. It's like, cool. It's coming from this guy over here. Here's our form farm. Here's our source. This is his story.

Joseph Cassinelli - 01:04:01
We're gonna start to tell those stories as well on our on our website, And we wanna get those farmers involved with like our social media. And I think when the consumers start to connect the farmer to the product, then it becomes real because they see the guy with the tractor holding the corn saying like, this is like, this is great corn and peeling it, you know? And you got like little farm kids and like, everybody's like, you know, it's like on the pumpkin patch. Like we all love going to the pumpkin patch. Right. Because we think that we're so close to like nature and we can go pick our pumpkin and pick our apples and we climb the tree and, like, we're like, it's the best apple Crispy ever made.

Joseph Cassinelli - 01:04:29
We can do that with corn. You can do a rice. You can do a flat rate wheat. You can do it with all the things. Mhmm. So I think building the brand story and getting the farmers a lot of these guys don't wanna do it. Right?

Joseph Cassinelli - 01:04:43
Like, they wanna drive their tractor, like, leave me alone. But I think the more farmers we get on board, like, the be part of the be spokespeople for this and partner with the brands and don't hide it behind a veiled curtain of, like, what is regen? Because I think consumers are confused. They don't know what regen is. Why is it better or not better than anything else? Getting the farmers to, like, talk about, like, their horror stories. Like, why is this corn actually better for you?

Joseph Cassinelli - 01:05:06
What was my field like before I was this, and what is my field like now?

Anthony Corsaro - 01:05:17
Yeah. Right?

Joseph Cassinelli - 01:05:19
My 2¢.

Anthony Corsaro - 01:05:20
Yeah. I love it. I look forward to, celebrating when we turn it into a rager, as you said, with you, brother. So I look forward to that day.

Kyle Krull - 01:05:28
Yeah. Absolutely, man. Really appreciate it with these Jared. Obviously, coming into this episode, I was a fan of the brand. Sometimes you meet your heroes, and they let you down. This is the exact opposite. I'm I'm even more so a family friend than I was when we when we started the episode. So, appreciate everything you're doing.

Joseph Cassinelli - 01:05:42
Yes. Likewise. I mean, you guys spreading the message is so important for everybody.

Anthony Corsaro - 01:05:45
Yeah. And if if y'all wanna find out more about Joe or listeners, you can go to lnachochip.com. We'll obviously have some other fun links in the show notes as well. But, Joe, thanks for joining us, man. Really appreciate it.

Joseph Cassinelli - 01:05:54
Thank you, guys. Appreciate your time. Thanks for having me on.

Anthony Corsaro - 01:06:01
For transcripts, show notes, and more information on this episode, check out our website regen-brands.com. That is regen-brands.com. You can also check out our YouTube channel, ReGen Brands, for all of our episodes with both video and audio. The best way to support our work is to give us a five star rating on your favorite podcast platform and subscribe to future episodes on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and YouTube. You can also subscribe to our newsletter, the ReGen Brands Weekly, and follow our ReGen Brands LinkedIn page to stay in the know of all the latest news, insights, and perspectives from the world of regenerative CPG. Thanks so much for tuning in to the ReGen Brands Podcast. We hope you learned something new in this episode, and it empowers you to use your voice, your time, your talent, and your dollars to help us build a better and more regenerative food system. Love you guys.