Show Notes:
AC and Kyle chat with Meghan and Keith Rowe of White Leaf Provisions. The Rowe’s discuss why they started a regen baby food brand, the differences between ReGen Ag in Europe and the US, and their future plans to “regenerate your pantry” by building White Leaf into a family brand with staple products across multiple categories.
Links:
Episode Recap:
ReGen Brands Recap #4 - Meghan & Keith Rowe @ White Leaf Provisions
Episode Transcript:
Kyle Krull - 0:00:16
Welcome to The ReGen Brands Podcast. This is a place for consumers, operators and investors to learn about the consumer brands supporting regenerative agriculture and how they're changing the world. This is your host, Kyle, joined with my co-host AC. Let's dive in.
Anthony Corsaro - 0:00:33
On this episode, we have Meghan and Keith Rowe, who are the cofounders of White Leaf Provisions. White leaf is supporting regenerative agriculture through their baby food and applesauce products, with many new items coming soon. In this episode, we learn more about how Meghan and Keith's first child inspired them to start a regenerative food company. How they're planning to scale the brand across new categories and retailers, and how white leaf is creating regenerative supply chains through their important work with organic and biodynamic certified producers across the globe. Let's go. Keith, Meghan, thanks so much for being with us. We have Keith and Meghan Rowe from White Leaf Provisions today. Y'all we're really excited to have them. They are trailblazing in the regen baby food arena. So really excited about what they're working on, really excited to have them on as guests. And and y'all, if you could just kind of help fill the audience in to start with what is White Leaf Provisions, what do y'all do, what kind of products do you have and and kind of how everything get got started, that would be great.
Keith Rowe - 0:01:29
Yeah, totally. Thank you guys for having us on. Really appreciate it. Yeah, likely provisions, we're a family run business, husband and wife team and I guess after becoming parents for the first time, we noticed a gap in the market or we noticed it was a huge void in the market for for the conversation around regenerative farming. We were looking for products that were generatively farmed. We could not find them after both of our backgrounds in Europe and seeing how how it's on such a different scale in Europe. We set out to build a trusted family brand over here that would launch baby food and other lines of products that all had regenerative farming at their core. Yeah.
Kyle Krull - 0:02:07
Awesome. So let's expand on that real quick. And also just want to know that the, the color coordination between the four of us today is just on. So it's really, really killed. I would like the greenest flag vibe. So you know, we didn't set on memo, that's just totally organic, you mentioned that. Your experience in Europe had already sort of brought a level of awareness around redirect products, you know, to you and then as parents you're looking for baby for those regenerative not available. So tell me about buying food in Europe and how like why is regenerative more of a thing there than it is in the United States?
Keith Rowe - 0:02:39
Yeah totally. And I I guess I should go back and in my background guys, I am born and raised in Ireland and grew up in a little small farming community, SE coast of Ireland. Really cool way to grow up. I grew up by surrounded by lots of little small family run organic farms, really cool way to grow up. And so that kind of started my passion for very pure simple foods. I went on to be a classically French trained chef and I cooked about Europe and Australia and Asia for for lots of years, most of those years executive level. But being in the coloring scene in Europe, that's kind of where I got introduced to you know regenerative farming and and in particular in Europe this biodynamic certification. This, you know, the Demeter International, founded in Germany, almost 100 years old. It's in Europe. It's viewed as really the kind of gold standard for regenerative farming. It is. It is the top of the table for all of those. So being in the culinary scene, that's where I became aware of Demeter certified products, Demeter farming, Demeter produce. And that guy didn't really play a part in white leaf until, like I said, we became parents.
Meghan Rowe - 0:03:49
And I spent many years studying for my education in Europe. I did my I did many years abroad throughout college, and then I did my masters in Paris. So I was really familiar with, by dynamic standards, how things were farmed in Europe. And so when it came time to have our son, we ended up importing a lot of products from Europe for him.
Kyle Krull - 0:04:10
How did?
Anthony Corsaro - 0:04:11
John. Me. Keith, were you just whipping up the five star meals for Meghan or what?
Keith Rowe - 0:04:15
What was the love story? Something like that. Yeah. I moved to the states about 14 years ago and and that's where I met Meghan for the first time. So we were naturally got to I got a job in a restaurant. Meghan was also working in the restaurant. So that classic front of house, back of house thing and what we discovered, we had all these crazy things in common. We were both passionate about regenerative farming and and. Europe, lifestyles and food and dining and all of these things. So that's kind of how we uh yeah, we got together.
Meghan Rowe - 0:04:45
But yes, he still cooks almost every meal in the house.
Keith Rowe - 0:04:49
I tried. They're getting good. As this business grows, my meals get a little more basic, but.
Anthony Corsaro - 0:04:54
I mean, the guy, the guy was a weapon. That accent. The cooking skills. Come on.
Kyle Krull - 0:05:00
Easy. Yeah. OK, got it. So you mentioned the Demeter certification and you're you're experiencing food service. And I spent some time selling food in Australia and New Zealand and you know that product that certifications on product at grocery stores as well, correct say thing in Europe you've seen that all over the place.
Keith Rowe - 0:05:17
Yeah, totally. Yeah. In mainland Europe, they actually have Demeter stores. Then when you walk in there, everything has that Demeter badge on it. All the fruit and vegetables have the little Demeter badges on them and especially more so in mainland Europe, but.
Meghan Rowe - 0:05:32
Theofoc which is the. The equivalent to Expo WI would say. But your scale, the Demeter representation is in pavilions. It's not just a little, it's pavilion.
Kyle Krull - 0:05:46
Wow.
Meghan Rowe - 0:05:46
Like four or five different pavilions, so it's pretty cool.
Kyle Krull - 0:05:50
That's incredible. So just from like a this is obviously this is going to be a guess, but if you were to get like the percentage of consumers who are aware of Demeter biodynamics, soil health in Europe versus that same level of voice in the United States like. Where would you rate those percentages?
Keith Rowe - 0:06:05
It's really hard to get a percentage on country by country. But if you look at mainland Europe, was we done the same thing when we were kind of building our business too? We were like how popular is this, like how well established is this? But there was a survey done years ago in Germany and the Demeter certification was the third most recognized brand after COCACOLA and BMW.
Kyle Krull - 0:06:25
Wow.
Anthony Corsaro - 0:06:26
Yeah, that is so different than the UCR.
Kyle Krull - 0:06:29
G like C layers. Pretty well recognized.
Keith Rowe - 0:06:32
Yeah, I mean that's just in Germany, but even in Switzerland, France, Spain and I think what's happened over the past couple of years with viticulture and with the whole wine industry, the Demeter certification, I think it's the Demeter certification. I I could be wrong, but what I believe it represents about 1% of the overall viticulture all over the world, but it wins about 60% of all of the prizes, Demeter certified wines, so. It's gaining a lot of popularity with vineyards and so now we're starting to see that kind of come over and and.
Meghan Rowe - 0:07:02
That's the entry point you see here in the states. Yeah. It's people recognize by dynamic wines, debit or certified.
Kyle Krull - 0:07:08
Wine, right?
Meghan Rowe - 0:07:09
And then when you say it's the same farming method and the same certification, that's when people really pique their interest.
Anthony Corsaro - 0:07:17
What can we learn from that here in the US as we try and scale this regen? Ag movement, I mean, I I think there's got to be some lessons in there and you guys have. A great vantage point into that. I mean, what can we learn from the the success demner sat over there to to do over here?
Keith Rowe - 0:07:32
Yeah, I I think they just scaled it a lot differently than they have in the US it seems to be farmers. It's been, it's been happening in Europe for almost 100 years, right. So they've got a real good jumper, really good head start on the US it is growing at a really nice rate in the US. But it's been ingrained in Europe and generations of families for almost 100 years, and so that's really allowed them to grow country by country.
Meghan Rowe - 0:07:55
And Europe has a really stronger standpoint against chemical AG, glyphosate, yeah, we banned in almost many countries over there where it's widely used here. So I think that the awareness from the farmer standpoint as to why they can farm without the use of chemicals, it's a foreign concept to them. So I think. Once that kind of conversation starts to unfold more, I think you'll just start to see this awareness increase.
Keith Rowe - 0:08:23
Yeah. And I think the, the, the regenerative conversation, I mean you guys know I would say the regenerative conversation really took off here, but anywhere four, maybe four years ago. In Europe, that regenerative conversation has gone along with the growth of Demeter certification for years, for decades. So they're very much, they're very more well established in the regenerative conversation, which naturally just leads people, farmers, consumers back to this Demeter certification.
Anthony Corsaro - 0:08:51
And it's, it's producing crops, but this is also meat and dairy. I mean is it across all commodities?
Keith Rowe - 0:08:56
Yeah, across all commodities.
Meghan Rowe - 0:08:58
There's actual Demeter.
Keith Rowe - 0:09:00
There's dameter petrude lines in Europe too.
Meghan Rowe - 0:09:03
Wow, she's got my sights on being entrepreneur.
Kyle Krull - 0:09:06
Did not messing around. Yeah so.
Keith Rowe - 0:09:09
For those of us.
Kyle Krull - 0:09:09
Who have yeah for for the listeners who have not been abroad, just try to briefly explain what the Demeter certification is, which I would say Demeter obviously like not. Classic American butchering. You know, you're seeing, you know, words.
Anthony Corsaro - 0:09:24
You're learning you're.
Kyle Krull - 0:09:25
Yeah, right. Well, getting there. It's a learning planet. But yeah, in as few words as possible, what is that certification and how does it correlate to, like the regenerative agriculture movement here in the United States?
Keith Rowe - 0:09:37
Yeah, I would somewhat down under certification is a holistic approach to farming and health and animal welfare and I think it's really about connectivity. I think what the Demeter certification does is it focuses on the connection that farmers have and animals have with the land and it builds upon that. And I think there's a lot of regenerative conversations happening today, but and they're all kind of focused on the same way. I just think that Demeter, yeah, Demeter has been focusing. I'm really honing in on that message for for years.
Kyle Krull - 0:10:10
OK, so there's some component of soil health, animal welfare, holistic management and things like that, yeah.
Keith Rowe - 0:10:17
Yeah.
Kyle Krull - 0:10:18
Got it. OK, cool. Well, it's good for us to learn. So you know, I think we talked a little bit about white leave. What you guys do now, you know, tell us about your product line, so tell us about your baby food flavors, where you're sold today and kind of just give us like the baseline for you where is white leaves 10?
Keith Rowe - 0:10:36
Yeah, totally. What we launched in late 2018 in Southern California being by dynamic, we generally found all this. It's crazy stuff. That's where we started, Southern California.
Anthony Corsaro - 0:10:47
Southern.
Keith Rowe - 0:10:48
California Air One was our very first store.
Anthony Corsaro - 0:10:51
And nice.
Keith Rowe - 0:10:51
And still an amazing camp for this day. Southern California done really well in all the traditional Indies coops, smaller grocery stores down there. We jumped up to Northern California, done even better in Northern California, and from there. Yeah. We started to roll out nationally. So today, we have 6 skews of baby food. We are in about 2400 doors across the country, still very much focused on the specialty and natural kind of food side. We're in Whole Foods, Wegmans, Natural Grocers just launched in Sprouts yesterday, nationally, 6 baby food skews.
Kyle Krull - 0:11:28
And.
Keith Rowe - 0:11:28
Applesauce, yeah, thank you. Applesauce 2 skews of that out. And we have, they're a little bit more specialty but also a lot more distribution on the West Coast. But they're slowly kind of moving their way over to the east. And when we put out six cubes of baby food and and the two applesauce for for us being parents we were looking for baby food at the very start. So we set out with just six cubes and six cubes, a really nice mix of fruit and vegetables, lot of baby food brands out there. They naturally will need very, very fruit heavy because it's very, very palatable for kids because it's super sweet. But for us, there's a fine balance between, you know, a nice mix of fruits and vegetables out there and then applesauce. For us, it's a favor in our house. It's a pantry staple in our house. You know, our kids today even love it. So launching an applesauce line was something that was really kind of special to us as well. And launching the first regenerative focus by dynamic US grown and manufactured applesauce made it even, even even better we.
Meghan Rowe - 0:12:28
Really wanted to show that you could produce this line with. Dynamic farmers out of the States and we had a great manufacturing partner that really saw what we were trying to build. They went ahead and got a Democrat certification for us and they really took a chance on us and we were doing the smallest runs possible with them and they stayed with us since our first run back.
Kyle Krull - 0:12:50
Yeah, it's awesome. Wow.
Anthony Corsaro - 0:12:51
Wow. I so I have, I have a story and then a question to follow up on that point that Meghan just made. So my story is I go to LA for a week and I go to arawan and I like buy like 17 packages of white leaf baby food and I'm like 28 year old guy like at Wework the next day just smashing baby food like at my desk and people are just like does this guy need baby food? Like what's going on? But it's it's it's phenomenal product. Talk to us about how you guys built this supply chain both on the baby food side and the applesauce side, because I mean this, this doesn't exist or didn't exist, I'm sure before you try to do that. And I'm sure it was not an easy task. And I think we as consumers sometimes get to the store. We see this beautiful thing that's all packaged up and it's, it looks great and we have no idea kind of how the sausage gets made, so to say. So can you take the audience kind of into behind the scenes of that process of really building the supply chain?
Meghan Rowe - 0:13:40
Yeah. So in. We came up with the concept of White League in 2014. We were sketching out the logo, thinking about building this brand. Our son is turning 9 tomorrow, so he was one when we started this.
Kyle Krull - 0:13:57
Crazy.
Meghan Rowe - 0:13:58
And so we were, we were literally like the what if? Dreaming entrepreneurial life. And I'm the daughter of the serial entrepreneur. My parents actually did a food business in the in the 90s that exited to Campbells and Pepperidge Farm. So we kind of had.
Anthony Corsaro - 0:14:13
Wow, I did not know.
Kyle Krull - 0:14:14
That Billy. What? What was this? What was the food biz?
Meghan Rowe - 0:14:17
It was my mother was way ahead of her time. She created a fat free brownie that she utilized dates and plum purees and replicated this like gooey, fudgy goodness.
Anthony Corsaro - 0:14:31
Way before her time.
Kyle Krull - 0:14:32
Good for her. Seriously. Like date based in the 90s. Like he had our X bar? Yeah.
Meghan Rowe - 0:14:37
Yeah. So they did, they had like 13 skews. They were in 11 classes of trade. So I had a kind of a road map in place a little bit. And so when we, we thought about this, we had been importing baby food from Europe for Keegan and my father and I and Keith, we all discussed it and like there's a missing market here. And so we we took us three years to find somebody that would take a chance on us. We spoke to our free company in the US, South America.
Meghan Rowe - 0:14:38
Um, Mo Q's at the time were 300,000 pouches. I mean, like.
Kyle Krull - 0:15:12
Geez, is that per, per skew? Yeah.
Meghan Rowe - 0:15:14
Yeah, per skews, you can't do that with, yeah. With the customer base that doesn't know they want it yet, so we.
Kyle Krull - 0:15:22
Right. So it's like for six cues, it's £1.8 million. Yeah, yeah, that's crazy. Yeah, you.
Meghan Rowe - 0:15:28
Want to take a chance?
Keith Rowe - 0:15:29
Yeah. And that's all the Demeter certifications and all the additional things that these manufacturers wouldn't know.
Meghan Rowe - 0:15:34
They were like organics.
Anthony Corsaro - 0:15:35
Yes. And you actually have to sell the inventory.
Kyle Krull - 0:15:37
Yeah.
Anthony Corsaro - 0:15:39
As well.
Keith Rowe - 0:15:39
Yeah.
Meghan Rowe - 0:15:40
So we found our partner in Europe really loved what we were building loved. Us, they wanted this like family brand to kind of take it to our first run of ants on the US market with. So we imported of the first two cues the mango and three foot container and we thought we had struck it and the P was it. We were like Oh my God.
Keith Rowe - 0:16:03
We we spent those years of research we were looking, discovering to be.
Meghan Rowe - 0:16:07
Amazing. Like, yes, huge order. We're never going to solve all this now. I think we've supported.
Keith Rowe - 0:16:15
Yeah. Never.
Meghan Rowe - 0:16:17
In the last like six months, so.
Keith Rowe - 0:16:19
But I think when it comes back, the worst thing I think we were, you know, EA Association, Demeter USA call, calling farms, visiting farms. Like we wanted to get a scope of exactly what was available in America and what could we use in America, knowing that supply and demand was kind of always, you know, in the back of our minds. And it just wasn't there years ago it definitely wasn't there. Supply wasn't the logistics between all the all the suppliers just wasn't there. Now we can OK well let's bring the Demeter you know product produce to the actual manufacturers in the US and that's just not a viable you know we done all the maths and all the work that's kind of what pushed us back to Europe. So our next approach was we were we never it was always going to be Demeter certified right. I was never it's easy to do another organic baby food but it was we always wanted it to be Demeter certified but then we had an option and that wasn't viable so. Why not try and package these products as close to the farms in Europe, whereas a, yeah, massive supply and then ship over the finished product. So that seemed to be the way that really worked for us. You know, financially, logistically everything it's it's it's been a really nice partnership and a strong partnership too for years.
Kyle Krull - 0:17:26
I mean it's really great story and what I love is the evolution of the supply chain and how now you're looking to try to source and it sounds like you know the supply chain or the the domestic growers in the United States are catching up. And now you can start to source some products here and I'm maybe I'm just getting ahead of ourselves, but I would imagine that's going to try to continue in the future with future innovations. You're going to try to source more from the US just to save on shipping right and support the local communities.
Meghan Rowe - 0:17:50
And we're ordering at such large scales now that the shipping really isn't it. Everyone perceives that as being the high cost of barrier coming in, but it really isn't that much at all, which is we're fortunate about. Then we are in development of a couple new lines of products, one that we're really excited about, not going to mention it yet, but that is going to be a US made and mostly US supply chain created product line.
Kyle Krull - 0:18:17
I think where we kind of Keith had told me about it, I also won't mention it because you won't, but I'm equally as excited about this.
Meghan Rowe - 0:18:24
Anthony, we'll tell you offline, OK. Yeah, yeah.
Anthony Corsaro - 0:18:26
Yeah, that's cool. I don't want to. I don't want to feel left.
Keith Rowe - 0:18:29
Out and I think, yeah, I think when we were, we were doing that even putting these products in market for us, you know, we always had this thing of like well, we have a role to play if we put these products on shelf and consumers take the products off shelf. It's going to start that that conversation with farmers. If there's a consumer demand out there, farmers are going to shift, farmers are going to listen, farmers are going to start adopting. So that was our role way back then and thankfully we started to see it even come to now. We get contacted by farmers all the time and we're constantly guiding towards different groups and because they want to get how do I get involved in this? Like who's growing your carrots and who's where, where is how is all this happening and how am I missing the boat on all of this? So we've seen our little company now turn into.
Keith Rowe - 0:18:44
Almost a crossroads for farmers who want to get really involved and learn more about this, which is which has been really cool.
Anthony Corsaro - 0:19:22
And we, we talk about this theme I think on almost every episode. But the average layperson that just shops at the store doesn't understand that these goods still have to be manufactured. So you have to work through logistics and Coleman's and the farmers, you have to do all these different things. And it's such the road less traveled to go create these kinds of products and these kinds of supply chains. So kudos to you guys for that and kudos to you guys for pushing people. To kind of New Horizons. Because without somebody to kind of play mediator and get all the, you know, play Symphony and orchestrate all the crew like these, things don't happen.
Keith Rowe - 0:19:53
Yeah, it's it's, it's been it's been a labor love for sure. And the other important thing too is we, I had conversation with so many farmers even we've got close connections with a lot of our farmers in Europe and even in America for applesauce. It's the same thing when the amount of work that these guys put into growing a biodynamic apple is unbelievable. If the consumers could actually just in, you know, visit and learn more about that, it's, it's unbelievable.
Meghan Rowe - 0:20:18
Opening and that's what happened to us. We started to experience by net harms in person and it was you don't go we don't look back. We buy everything we can buy dynamic that's available. I won't touch a wine that's not yeah. And and we're just we're really all in in this movement.
Keith Rowe - 0:20:34
And and just making sure the farmer gets paid a decent wage for all of his work and his passion that he puts into this is, is has always been another little a little you know key factor in bringing these products to market too. There's a fine balance in there which you know thankfully we've been working through.
Anthony Corsaro - 0:20:51
The the vision for the brand is to move beyond baby food, right? The visit, the vision for the brand is to be a provisions company. So can you kind of share with audience what what that might look like or whatever you can? I know there's some secrets we can't share, but what's the vision for?
Meghan Rowe - 0:21:03
That so back in 2014, we always knew we wanted to create a family brand. It wasn't just about baby food, it just happened to be baby food. What we wanted at that moment, we saw a lack of availability in the US. So when we hatched out the the name we we really wanted to give an homage to bio dynamic farming and and the history that it holds in Europe. So we chose provisions as this word that was from an older time that really encapsulated different products throughout the pantry. So we really focus on regenerating your pantry is what our our goal is. So we have the baby food obviously he said we had six, we're launching four more by the end of the year. So we'll have 10 total and then that's going to close the baby food set and now we're going to focus on the applesauce which we're we have two more in development right now. So we'll have four as an applesauce nice. And then we're we're having the secret product in development right now and we also have a line of oats and use Lee which.
Keith Rowe - 0:22:07
Yeah, yeah, same thing. So what what we like Meghan had said kind of that that was always the vision for us to be to be whitely provisions. If you look at the website today, very much baby focused. But we're going to start transitioning that more of a family brand. So naturally with baby food, like you people who are purchasing baby food, they will research deeper, harder, they will do a lot more digging and naturally leads them to us. So all of a sudden they found this great baby food, but now the kids grow older, they stop eating baby food. But the parents are now looking for pantry staples that have the same authenticity, transparency, regenerative farming, the glyphosate free. And so that's where now we get to to branch into other products. We these actually you probably the first two guys to see these we're going to launch the first line of they're.
Anthony Corsaro - 0:22:54
Going to be fine. Breaking news on The ReGen Brands Podcast, Baby.
Keith Rowe - 0:22:58
Love it. And we're going to be fine by the mcmusley. So they're going to be a hot and cold cereal, and again, done with lots of by dynamic ingredients, lots of organic. They're also going to be the first to be certified glyph state residue free. Better certification? Oh yeah. We're really passionate about it. So the baby food, the applesauce, the hot and cold cereals. And then we're working on a couple of other secret products that are kind of tieins for older kids and and older family members too.
Kyle Krull - 0:23:24
So I feel like your your product innovation path sort of like grows like what are your kids ages now and what are they going to be consuming you know and it's sort of like you got like test space there it's.
Keith Rowe - 0:23:36
No good you would say that kind of because that's exactly we are both like right that like well my son, so we've a white, we've a 13 month old and then we have a 9 year old. So we started this so.
Kyle Krull - 0:23:47
You get a great demographic change ups here.
Keith Rowe - 0:23:50
Marketing material with the 13 months old it all.
Kyle Krull - 0:23:54
Right.
Keith Rowe - 0:23:55
But, but now, my son, perfect, we we love oats in our house, we love Muesli, granolas, things like that in our house. But we find ourselves kind of lacking for what we're used to, what we see in the baby food. So.
Kyle Krull - 0:24:07
Yes, that's great. So I'm, I make regenerative bone broth, oatmeal like oats. So like yeah, now we're going to have some like read oats with regen bone broth, some collabs here, some savory oats. So yeah, we use some agenda problems, regenerative cheese in there like this is going to be a great time. Oh yeah. But I wanted to touch on some of the, the sales traction you're getting you know, to I'm assuming I don't, I don't buy baby food. I don't you know, I haven't been there along with Anthony. And I don't have a baby myself, so I get the purchase baby food, but I'm assuming there's a bit of a price premium for the White Leaf Provisions pouches. Is that correct?
Keith Rowe - 0:24:43
Yeah, there is. Yeah, I, I in the baby food set, what we've seen happen, you know, when we launched there and explored that, you know, years ago, you had a lot of big organic GMO free baby food pack that seems to be the norm and the majority of stores probably where we all shop. Which is really, really cool. But I feel that that's probably the first part of the store where organic and GMO free have now become the conventional. Now it's, it's everybody's organic and GMO free with the baseline. I mean, it's great, it's fantastic to see it throughout, but parents being parents, like I said earlier. They want a little bit of a deeper dive, right? So they would always go a little bit deeper. So when we were doing our baby food line, there was nobody talking about, you know, soil health, animal welfare, promoting biodiversity, glyphosate, and which for us as parents, that was a big issue. Parents today are reading about Monsanto. Parents today are seeing climate change happen in their backyard. They're hearing about loss of topsoil. All these things are starting to trickle into their.
Keith Rowe - 0:25:18
Their feeds, which naturally trickles into how they research foods, especially when it comes to baby food, when you're feeding kids who have the most palatable and and virgin taste buds, palates, guts, immune system, yeah, you naturally just want to find this. So that's where we kind of step out a little bit. There's a couple of other brands out there who would fall into the specialty baby food category like us, we're seeing more and more parents willing to pay that little bit extra for that level of purity and that level of transparency that we bring to market.
Kyle Krull - 0:26:15
I really appreciate that sentiment. And what I'm curious about is as a new brand entering a very well established set, you know, I sold phone organics for a while, happy babies at powerhouse, owned by some, you know, big CPG, you know, when you're coming in with a high premium price point and a Demeter certification, sorry, Demeter certification in the US market which isn't widely recognized. What was that like you know in 2018 versus what is that like in 2022? How is that changed overtime?
Meghan Rowe - 0:26:42
Well, I think it starts with how we initially rolled out. It worked for us. We were such a small brand when we launched and like he said, we went into air one first. He thrive picked us up right away. So we had really great partners out of the gate that really understood the specialty of our product line and and really wanted to hone in on the fact that it was an authentic family brand. We weren't some. Giant CPD brand, it was just kind of blanket the the space. So we really had time to grow within strategically. I think the conversation around regenerative has really escalated in the last year and a half, two years that that's where we've seen a lot of adoption of our product.
Keith Rowe - 0:27:26
Yeah. And I think even back in the early days, you know, we were. We were sending out a lot of survey monkeys and we were, we were, we were surveying a lot of different groups of parents and people just to get a scope of what people would like. So we knew what that DEMITER certification encompassed, right. We all know in this call all the little farming elements that go into regenerative farming. So we started sending out surveys like would you? When we came through innovation, it was about, well, what can we do on the shelf that's different than everybody else on the shelf. The regenerativey farming means and actually was a huge piece, which the DEBITER certification gave us.
Keith Rowe - 0:27:31
The ability to retalk on a deep level about regenerative farming. You know we asked parents would they pay a little bit extra for products that were certified life state residue free? 100% of parents said yes. Would you pay a little bit extra for a brand that offered you a free mail in recycling program for all of your baby food packaging because this was also a big issue with parents, 100% said absolutely yes or would you pay a little bit extra for a brand who have done the survey on exactly kind of what a, what a good. And serving of baby food is and then only use the minimum amount of packaging to safely wrap that to avoid excess unrecycled packaging. The environment everybody naturally is yes. So all these little service came back. So we we knew that that's what we had that's what we start educating and talking to people about the ingredients being a number one. But all the other little additions that we could add on as true innovation that really what helped to sell the products and and thankfully.
Keith Rowe - 0:28:28
You know, the biggest driver in sales for us today is word of meth. That's been huge for us. You know parents right cover this our brand and discovered this level of transparency. They become many ambassadors for the brand and we've just seen that kind of ripple effect to at the country, which has been I mean amazing.
Meghan Rowe - 0:29:12
And we're now we're being approached by more conventional retail buyers and stores but given given where we're at this will be a nice entry into your fundraise questions I presume too but. We just we can't commit yet you know we want to be really strict about our partners and the partners we're with currently really support our size and where we are and and where we're going. And so we've had to say no to some conventional chains at the moment because they just see a buzzword and they see beautiful packaging and they see our movement and spins and they're like oh come on in, but it's just a huge effort to to to get. That buyer aware of our product line and why they should be buying us versus the the bigger guy right now.
Kyle Krull - 0:29:58
I think before we jump in the fundraising, it's really important to hone in on that note. So if I'm hearing you correctly, you've got opportunities to grow your brand and CPG. It's all about growth, right? You know, you got your investors, you got your board, everybody wants to see growth. And it sounds like you are unwilling to accept certain growth opportunities because you don't want to sacrifice the integrity of your supply chain. Yes, one, and I just want to touch on how unique that is in this industry where people are, you know, doing everything, they can't open as many doors as possible as fast as possible.
Meghan Rowe - 0:30:28
Yes.
Kyle Krull - 0:30:29
So I just really appreciate that that statement in that sentiment, your dedication to that integrity, it's incredible.
Meghan Rowe - 0:30:35
Yeah.
Anthony Corsaro - 0:30:36
And there's a difference between building 100 year success or a 10 year.
Keith Rowe - 0:30:39
Success, right?
Kyle Krull - 0:30:41
Yeah, you know, at some point your kids are going to be geriatric and you're probably going to regenerative diapers that you're making. You're going to help them out. You'll get there one day. So yeah, they get the long play.
Keith Rowe - 0:30:52
Yeah, yeah. I mean it's, it's and it's that like I said, everybody involved in the business, they've all, they're all as equally passionate about anybody's invested in the business. Any buyer who's looked at our products, they've all kind of invested in the business and invested in us and the longterm goal and vision of the business which. I I totally get what you're saying. It's not the traditional way that that businesses are you know grown, but when you're talking about a regenerative thing and especially in a regenerative business it's kind of a a slow and steady pace. But I mean for us it's been, it's been what we thought was that has now turned into this. So it's been yeah it's been it's been great to see the traction.
Anthony Corsaro - 0:31:31
One thing that stands out to me is. Word of mouth, marketing, capturing that mom, right like that moms are getting bombarded with stuff. You guys obviously have amazing authenticity because Meghan's apart such a big part of the brand. But in the age of TikTok and Facebook and Instagram and you know D2C advertising and all the things like, what are some actual strategies you guys took to have that success? Because that's that's honestly incredible. I think in today's environment and that is really like such a solid foundation to build upon versus some of those other things I mentioned that I think are going to be a little House of Cards eat as we move forward so. Love to hear you guys touch on.
Meghan Rowe - 0:32:04
That, yeah. Early on, we we sent out physical sample kits with handwritten notes. I think we.
Kyle Krull - 0:32:14
Wow, that.
Meghan Rowe - 0:32:15
Was 1200 sample boxes.
Anthony Corsaro - 0:32:19
To who? Like just a list of moms that you found online or what? Who? Who?
Meghan Rowe - 0:32:23
I had moms that would send me lists of moms like it was just. And parents like we have a lot of dads too like that are really in the farming aspect of it. So we just sent out.
Anthony Corsaro - 0:32:34
Yeah, don't sleep on the dads.
Meghan Rowe - 0:32:35
Can't and we just literally just sent out handwritten notes and in. In the early days I was fulfilling all the all the DDC boxes from our office. So like whenever there was customer service issues, I would be the one dealing with it and I would be hand. I have great handwritten notes on the packing list. And so we would get a lot of customers coming in saying oh Sally Smith got your box and she told me to to to try you guys and and it just an old school way of doing everything but it would it kind of gave us this foundation. I have some subscribers have been our original subscribers since 2018 that are still.
Kyle Krull - 0:33:17
Wow.
Meghan Rowe - 0:33:19
So it's been.
Kyle Krull - 0:33:20
Extraordinary. That's worked.
Keith Rowe - 0:33:22
I think you've done a great job with the influencer too. Yeah. I mean we've never a lot of influencers out there. Yes. And they will say whatever you want to say and then you you check and that's fine and stuff like that, but.
Meghan Rowe - 0:33:34
We say no to a lot of influencers. If their feed doesn't match the ethos of our product line, we won't. We won't pay to play with them. So like sometimes we'll get an influencer that will say, hey, I love your products, I want to work with you. But their previous feed is some junky fast food. I'm not going to, I can't, I can't right around that. So we have a really strong network of influencers that really support the farming style, really support the brand, and it's amazing to watch their their IG stories or their tick tocks they talk about so well, like they really just get in on.
Keith Rowe - 0:34:10
So.
Kyle Krull - 0:34:12
But the.
Anthony Corsaro - 0:34:12
Authenticity is invaluable. It's so important. And it's. It's, I mean, the theme of this whole conversation keeps coming back to me. Authenticity, authenticity, everything you guys have talked about. So kudos to you guys for that.
Kyle Krull - 0:34:22
Yeah, what do you see? So digging the fundraising.
Anthony Corsaro - 0:34:26
Yeah, you've you've obviously needed money to make all this happen. So take us through that journey from 2018 to now. What's that look like to have been some partners there? How that, you know, how does that influence your decisions? What does that look like?
Meghan Rowe - 0:34:36
In the early on we did a small, I mean we've never been able to. We're never one of those grands that been like yes, we got. 4,000,000 in funding out of the gate. Like it's always been a a journey. So we've been scrappy. We've had our our original CAP table was more of a friends and family kind of cap table, which has been they've come on probably repeatedly at least three rounds with us. This last bridge round we did was the first time we took. Money in from people we actually didn't know. So that's been really exciting to have people behind us and just the the growth but I guess Keith mentioned it's it's we're a slower strategic roll out. So almost a lot of of the CPGVC's have spoken to us but when they see the slow growth they they it's not the right fit right now.
Meghan Rowe - 0:35:07
We're finally getting closer to their criteria, which has been really exciting. So yeah, we we just have a really aligned investor that really understands the importance of regenerative and wants to get behind it.
Kyle Krull - 0:35:48
That's incredible and again it's it's so distinct what you're doing and the fact that like the the the main VCs of space are not interested in investing this time almost tells me like that's that's a dedicated to auto quality. You know, you're not trying to create the most attractive brand for a VC firm to jump in. You're doing it the way you're doing, and when they're ready, they're going.
Meghan Rowe - 0:36:05
To be ready.
Kyle Krull - 0:36:07
Which, again, is just so novel for the industry. And it's so admirable. Really, really cool.
Anthony Corsaro - 0:36:13
Money's everywhere right. But those that consumer that consumer loyalty is not everywhere. So you have to nail that and then the money will come and you know it just it makes me think of it's it's it's an impressive way to just be that deliberate and. Can take that stance, but I think it's the right way that's going to separate people kind of in the long run for who we are still talking about in 20 years versus five years. What what is that process been like? You know, what have you guys learned through that process? What, what are some things that you know you didn't expect that have happened in that process?
Keith Rowe - 0:36:48
We, we, we've learned a lot. I mean, coming to mark.
Anthony Corsaro - 0:36:51
You need what need.
Keith Rowe - 0:36:52
Very things. You got to get comfortable with being uncomfortable. Coming to market in 2017 with a biodynamic baby food line that has never done before in the US you know lots of Nos but but they were Nos from from the wrong people but but also lots of really good feedback along the way and like you guys we we never. The amount of people that were like, hey, why don't you guys just like drop the, the Demeter certification, like why are you guys talking in the early days? People like why are you talking about soil? No one really cares about soil health. I don't think there's like, why don't you just drop that from here and cut that out and you'll just be an organic brand with a pretty pouch and we'll get you in, you know, 8000 doors like it's just, but I think that. It's taken us a long time to find the right kind of partners to to wanted to investors. I don't think to around when we started shopping our business around years ago which is why we.
Meghan Rowe - 0:37:47
And that's probably why we have such a slower growth as well, because we'd get, yeah, we'd close on 300K and we'd run and we'd get our achievements in place and then we'd go again and we'd close on another 400K. And it was always like this, like it was always like we had to always prove ourselves. And that's one thing we always. Laugh about and congratulate each other on is all of the knows that we received were because we weren't hitting their achievements or their milestone that they required and so then we would do that we were like hey we're here again we just did what you said we had to do and we've done that and they would have
In place and we would always.
Kyle Krull - 0:38:27
Constantly moving the goal line.
Meghan Rowe - 0:38:29
Always, yeah. And we've always been really proud of ourselves for always hitting the the line. Which has been exciting.
Keith Rowe - 0:38:36
Let that being said, we see a lot of those already knows coming back and checking in and seeing how we're going and which.
Meghan Rowe - 0:38:41
Has been exciting.
Keith Rowe - 0:38:42
Which is really, really nice to see, yeah.
Anthony Corsaro - 0:38:46
I like looping in some of the CPG lingo for those people listening that aren't super familiar, right. So when we talk about the specialty natural channel, that's a specific type of grocery like Whole Foods and Sprouts. When we talk about the conventional channel, that's Walmart, Kroger. When we talk about mass, that's Costco and Sam's Club for those that don't know that and. You guys might not, they might not know the exact stats, but it might be interesting for the audience to kind of hear you're in 2000 doors, right. So like how many doors are there in the specialty natural channel? How big is that? How big is baby food in specialty natural channel? Like ballpark numbers so people can kind of understand, OK, this is how a brand like this has to grow and have a really strong foothold and then it does this, that and the.
Keith Rowe - 0:39:23
Other, yeah. So I think in this space that we that we're kind of really focused on especially in natural, I guess it's about 3500 doors. Um, you know what? That's what.
Meghan Rowe - 0:39:34
We're doing is instead of getting one line into those 3500 doors, we're focused on getting 20 skews in that 3500 to increase the the revenue instead of having four baby skews that are in 15,000 locations across the country.
Keith Rowe - 0:39:52
Yeah, that's that's always been kind of our, our strategy is to kind of expand our brand and expand our products within that. Within that Channel, I guess the natural progression would be somebody would launch a line of products, he would try to get on every single, get it in every single door in America. For us, we just want to focus where we feel our consumer base is, which is in that specialty with natural food space by launching our oats and Muesli baby food line, applesauce line and then some other products. Within there, we feel there's a really, really nice kind of business within that. It also builds a really, really nice footprint for what we do eventually jump into more conventional accounts. We are currently having conversations with crossover accounts. That's probably another one, Anthony that your business might need to and.
Anthony Corsaro - 0:40:38
Yeah.
Keith Rowe - 0:40:38
Yeah. So crossover would be, it can be kind of in the middle between a conventional account and especially a natural account. Wegmans is a good example of that. Raleigh's in California, pretty good example so. Yeah, that's all we could have been our strategy and I think it's, it's, it's really nice to build that footprint and that kind of loyal following within there before you take the jump into more conventional products kind of which I'm sure you guys can can really you know speak to. Yeah.
Kyle Krull - 0:41:04
Yeah, absolutely. I think going deep and proving success in a given market whether that be specific channel and or geography building out that data story, so you're not purely selling on attributes in the conventional channel. I definitely it's the right way to go and you know like you say you're building that brand recognition and now that you're varying, you're jumping into different categories, you're building even more recognition because you found in multiple islands, right. So once you do decide to make the jump, once the timing is right in the supply chain is ready, like it's going to be that much easier than that with more traction. So I think this absolutely the right way to go.
Anthony Corsaro - 0:41:39
And investors sometimes get it wrong. And I'll say this. Your most profitable sale is selling more to someone that already buys from you. You're already in DC, you're already working with that retailer. They already know how to buy your product. So making $100 on that store versus $50.00, it's way more profitable than getting another $50.00 store. And I think a lot of times people forget that because we're so focused on door growth, velocity, you know, these other metrics which are very important. But I love that approach because those are retailers and consumers that are going to be with you guys for the long haul versus just looks good for the Series A or B raised and then boom, you know the brand.
Anthony Corsaro - 0:41:43
The brand has to, you know, take a step back five, five years after.
Keith Rowe - 0:42:16
That, yeah. Yeah, 100% and especially with it with the larger retailers for I guess, you know, smaller brand like US jumping into the larger retails, very expensive. It's very exciting, but very expensive. And then you spend a lot of money to get your products on the shelf and you spend even more money to get them off the shelf as fast as possible for us. And then kind of going into a void where I'm not sure my consumer is there or my consumer is ready. Or I'm not sure if that account is ready to back up all the regenerative farming. What are they doing to promote regenerative farming in their stores? It's, yeah, I mean the change is coming and and you know too, but to see a lot more conventional accounts starting to talk about regenerative farming, which is great, I mean it's, it's all really, really positive but for us.
Meghan Rowe - 0:42:59
And that's what we're doing with this raise. The use of proceeds really is strong on the DDC Amazon side. Really haven't invested a lot of money in D2C ever. We kind of hedge our bets what's going to take off 1st and retail really took off first in the beginning. So we really afforded a lot of our money towards that Channel. And then now we're in a position where we really want to get the D2C up and running really well and make this profitable, profitable revenue stream. It's also going to help us when we do migrate into conventional because brand awareness will be there, it'll be much stronger to to kind of. Saturate in that Channel, so the next two or three years is really a D2C heavy focus, nurture our current retail and then graduate into conventional with more brand awareness.
Anthony Corsaro - 0:43:47
And you'll have consumer data to say, hey, Walmart, we want to launch in these 50 stores because we have footholds of consumers in these geographies. Yeah, I love that.
Kyle Krull - 0:43:57
Yeah, it makes a lot of sense. So we're kind of talking about the future. So we've we've already sort of touched on this a handful of times about new product innovation, just touched on your DTC strategy moving forward. But what else is in the future for Wiley provisions? You know what are your long term goals for your five years from now, 10 years from now?
Keith Rowe - 0:44:16
Yeah.
Meghan Rowe - 0:44:19
So five, five years from now we really want to have at least 20 products in in, in retail. We want to have a really robust online need to see. Like Die Hard consumer we're we'll have graduated into conventional. Who knows maybe we'll get a Costco account in mass. I don't know my goal. I'm always crazy. He's always kind of tampers me down a little bit because I always am like but I would look it's.
Kyle Krull - 0:44:45
Good to have that balance, yes.
Meghan Rowe - 0:44:47
Yes, I would love to launch product lines outside of what our financial model. Kind of has is right now like I would love to just really explore more innovative products in the regenerative space pet or cottons or anything like that that really falls with underneath the brand and and kind of rounds out what whitely provisions really meant from.
Kyle Krull - 0:45:11
The I just want to touch on cotton real quick. So you're thinking about potentially taking the brand outside of food into an entirely different you know?
Keith Rowe - 0:45:19
Consumer sector, but yeah potentially it's the same messaging you know and it it it's it's something we've always kind of spoke about some of our other past investors have often mentioned it to us because they've got kind of connections in different places. So yeah but something we've we've kind of spoken about.
Meghan Rowe - 0:45:36
Topical supplements, I don't know. I'm all over the place, you know, I just see the beauty of regenerative farmed products and I see the the missing market for it. So it just of course, I'm always like.
Keith Rowe - 0:45:48
Yeah. Impact for us too is a huge piece. You know, when we started this, naturally there's like millions and millions of people out there who cannot afford, cannot get access to what we have put in the market and this level of, you know, transparency and purity. So for us, we've already got a really couple of really cool initiatives in place already, but it's something we really want to grow on. We want to get this level of purity into the hands of everybody. It's a huge struggle for a, you know, a lot of brands, especially a brand for us who are very, very specialty. But you know, I would really hope to see us really expand on, on their impact.
Meghan Rowe - 0:46:22
We work with a really great startup right now called Welfare and Cole, he really has created a wonderful product or business model. I would say. Yeah, with Amazon for example or with some larger accounts we will have short date stock that we don't want to throw it away. It's still good, but we can't sell it in retail with their their long shelf life commitments. So we work with him, we send him short date product and he repurposes it into food boxes for food buildings. So right now he's in East Harlem and Bushwick. It's been a really great partnership. We have our Amazon Channel set up to dispose straight to his warehouse. I'm excited to see where he goes with this. He's already getting a lot of interest from other regions, so it would be interesting to see this kind of expand.
Meghan Rowe - 0:46:46
And as Keith mentioned, as we grow, we'll be able to start looking at more options like the government funded WIC and such like that, so.
Kyle Krull - 0:47:25
That's awesome. I think somehow tapping into government funding for whether it be snap or WIC or something and you know if there could be a some sort of incentive for folks on those programs to purchase regenerative, I think that's such a no brainer. I don't know if you 2 have had food fixed by Mark Hyman. But he talks a lot about how the government works against itself because it's so siloed. And he presents some really interesting solutions like that plug for more time into food, chicks. Incredible read if anybody hasn't done it yet. So just want to comment on that. I think it's a really cool idea.
Keith Rowe - 0:47:58
Yeah, it's it's tricky tricky to get this level of of purity into the hands of people who really need it. You know, we we're always there has to be a natural trickle down effect at some point. But, but. It's something we're working on kind of behind the scenes and it's it's it's nice to be able to do that too, you know?
Anthony Corsaro - 0:48:18
The the government piece that we don't talk about enough as a community is America funded the biotechnology revolution. America funded the computing revolution with government. Academic research that they funded through research institutions, through special departments of the government. There's nothing going on like that in regen ag. You know we have conventional ag and GMO seed and Agri chemical companies funding stuff at Langer at universities. But if you look across the board, you know region is is next to nothing. And so not only I think is there levels leverage to pull on the consumer side but also put on the research back inside as well, which I don't know what the right way to continue to bring that conversation forward is, but it's definitely when we all need.
Meghan Rowe - 0:48:58
To. Know it already regenerate America it's because the grounds initiative we're part of that. Yeah. So they're the first time that there's this group going in at policy level to really make a change. So that's something to watch and and for the listeners to to join and be a part of so.
Kyle Krull - 0:49:16
Is that the one that's about trying, it's focusing on the 2023 farm bill?
Meghan Rowe - 0:49:20
Correct.
Keith Rowe - 0:49:21
Yeah.
Kyle Krull - 0:49:22
Yeah, yeah. It's a really, really cool initiative that they're, they're taking on.
Anthony Corsaro - 0:49:26
Yeah, so. I gotta ask about certifications, right. So you guys are USD organic, DEMNER certified certified, glyphosate residue free. We see all these folks trying to do a regenerative certification. Just talk to us about how you guys have approached that as a brand and maybe where you see certifications in five 1020?
Keith Rowe - 0:49:42
Years, yeah, totally like years ago. And they kind of back in, you know, for us being in Europe and everything that DEMATOR certification encompassed everything that we wanted to see, you know, from products that addressed. Like back to said, soil health, animal welfare, farmer welfare, biodiversity, all of these things.
Meghan Rowe - 0:50:01
0 pesticide herbicides or fungicides was really important to me as a mother. They don't even use synthetic. Yeah, it's all herbal sprays and natural compost, so there's nothing on these farms. It's just holistic management.
Keith Rowe - 0:50:14
Yeah and that's kind of that's that was that's been the North star of the entire business you know as we've grown it and that's it's it's allowed us to talk in a much deeper level about regenerative farming. So it's something we've really stuck to. It's nice to see the Roc certification come out who are who they're very much aligned with with the demon certification. I think it's it's actually the heart of their their certification thing. But it's I I think that the conversation needs to stay at a very very high level. I understand that it takes there's a lot of it's a tiered approach to get into regenerative farming. But I'm I'm I think we can all agree here. We're already starting to see a little level of green washing that's kind of coming into this result of the farming when you have some massive.
Keith Rowe - 0:50:25
You know, really bad few CPG brands that are talking about regenerative.
Kyle Krull - 0:51:02
They will remain nameless podcast, but we know what you're.
Keith Rowe - 0:51:05
Talking about.
Anthony Corsaro - 0:51:07
We will give them their day in court, we will have them on and.
Keith Rowe - 0:51:10
Let them it's a little bit scary but but you know I I still think it's it's the it's the bars got to be set really high and I think people really have to work their way up to it. Yeah and and that Demeter certification the Roc certification landmark verification are like. Right up there, I, I, I see more and more certifications coming to market and they seem to get a little bit more customized, which kind of worries me a little bit. I, I, I do see Demeter International really starting to ramp up their effort. It's like Demeter international. They're representing with 65 countries across the world and even the team here in the US have done a really good job of starting to ramp up and kind of put their name out there as being, you know, a real gold standard in this. We just kind of hope that they stay on that path and the teams kind of just keep doing what they're doing.
Meghan Rowe - 0:51:57
And as we launch more products where we, we are looking at other ways to incorporate other certifications into our portfolio because there are farmers in America doing really cool things with regenerative now. And and so that's exciting is to start seeing, OK, we have Demeter baby food, we have Demeter applesauce and oats and usually like what else can we launch, we do an Roc. Product, can we do a land and market product? So we really want to. And I think that goes back to what Keith was saying is that we're like a catalyst for this conversation. So it's exciting to see if we can push the envelope with what we've always wanted to do. So it'd be fun to launch, see what other products we can launch, utilizing different certifications along the way.
Anthony Corsaro - 0:52:39
And it's this. This triangle of influence is like, what are the brands think, what are the retailers think, what are the consumers think? And like, where is that all like that tug of war triangle?
Kyle Krull - 0:52:47
Kind.
Anthony Corsaro - 0:52:48
Of like all shape.
Kyle Krull - 0:52:49
Out so make it a square. Well, you know, how the farmers interact with these certifications, how expensive is it for them to to do it? You know, I know that there are some, there's some pushback on a couple of the certifications that we've discussed just moments ago because of, you know, if you have X number of cattle, you by default can't qualify for this certification. Yeah. And so I think what's really interesting, you know, Keith, you mentioned that the new certifications seem to be relatively customized. And what I'm nervous about with regenerative in the United States is that there are so many competing certifications that there's a lack of unification, unified voice and they're all vying for market share, regen share, if you want to call it that. And my concern is that it's going to, it's going to move the, it's going to reduce the amount of traction the movement can take on. As a whole confused people. Exactly. Yeah. You know, like, oh, well, this one's Demeter. This one's rlc. What's the difference? Which one's more important? And I'm. I'm not what the solution is for that. And I I do think that there's, you know, consumers use certifications to educate themselves so they don't have to die deeper, right? They just want to trust the batch. So there's definitely a place for them. But I'm nervous about and curious to see how the next three years goes in the United States specifically. It's going to be really interesting to see how. Yeah.
Keith Rowe - 0:53:59
I totally agree, Kyle. I mean, I didn't want to. Step out and say I was nervous about it, but yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm a little bit nervous about kind of where it's going and how fast it's changing, right. Like over the past two or three years there's a new certification comes every feels like every couple of months, you know? So yeah, I'm just worried that.
Meghan Rowe - 0:54:17
With the word regenerative too. Like like some farmers will say that they're doing regenerative farming practices, which they may be. And I'm not saying that they're not, but they're still using chemicals that I wouldn't want on my. Rocked. So but but the way that they're doing things still meets that regenerative criteria. So I think that's why we do stand behind that Demeter certification because it's set in stone. It's it's a historical certification it's been around for almost 100 years and they have the the the guide in place. Yeah ready that's that's.
Keith Rowe - 0:54:55
I think it was the the. I think they that the Roc certification kind of worked really close with Demeter 2 which was really amazing because I remember we were we were an ally of the Roc certification. It was really nice to see that collaboration start and so yeah hopefully you'll just stay at A at a higher level and kind of be the benchmark you know in the Roc as well.
Anthony Corsaro - 0:55:17
Right. And it to touch on what Meghan said and then we'll go to our last question. It's like I always say, regen is a continuum. And what I mean by that is there's still a guy or gal in the Midwest growing mono crop corn and soy. Yeah, we do want them to cover that. We do want them to stop tilling, but they might still spray or they might still do some tillage. And yes, you know, can we say they're regenerative or they're trying to be regenerative? Yes, but like where is that on the continuum versus full, someone producing edible food under a Demeter or an Roc certification. So I think the conversation has to have guardrails, has to have accountability. It has to have. Currency. And it has to have nuance because it's going to be very nuanced and we can't, we can't move the needle enough on food security, on climate, on all the things unless we get people to get on the continuum and then just continue to to work their way up. Which leads into the last question which we ask everyone, which is, you know, I'm curious to hear both of y'all's take on this. How do we get regen brands to have 50% market share by 2050?
Keith Rowe - 0:56:15
Starts.
Meghan Rowe - 0:56:15
With the farm.
Keith Rowe - 0:56:16
I I I would say educating on the farms it.
Meghan Rowe - 0:56:22
Starts with the farmers.
Keith Rowe - 0:56:23
Yeah.
Meghan Rowe - 0:56:24
It starts with it's, I think it's, I see it visually when you ask me that it's two prong approach. You have the farmers on one side educating the farmers on why regenerative works and then you also have the consumer education in place too. You need to show why this applesauce. Is $5 and that applesauce is $1.80 like you really have to show the benefit of regenerative foods to the consumer, while you're also showing the benefit of regenerative bag to the farmer.
Keith Rowe - 0:56:55
And I think bringing it to I, I say the farmers, yeah, absolutely, the consumers are a big driving force and whole thing. But when you educate farmers and and farmers learn about this, which you guys will see in tons of, you know, Gabe Brown and all these guys doing amazing work out there. It's it's yes it's your natural instinct is telling you this is the right way to do things this is how I should be doing things this is how I should be growing crops and and and you know working with animal husbandry this is this is exactly how it should be done. There's no farmer that that experiences regenerative farming and doors on these farming forces. And says himself this is I I I had no interest in this let's just go back to the chemicals and let's just spray it like it's it's it's Ingrid in the human spirit that this is. How we should be growing crops. This is how we've been growing crops up until the 1920s. I mean this is until everything kind of got messed up and they were told well you don't need that anymore, you just need this. And so it's, it's I think just educating the farmers and then having the farmers start to implement kind of what you said Anthony piece by piece into it and just start that is is for me I think is is the real key. We've spoken to hundreds of farmers over the years and we kind of explained about.
Keith Rowe - 0:57:39
What we have and what what these farmers are doing and and what they're doing and what they're not doing and when you actually see the the financial outcome and their profits and the long term outcome of doing this and cutting back on on on all the other expenditures that that industrialized farming has. It even makes financial sense in the long run. So for me it's it's educating farmers and.
Anthony Corsaro - 0:58:31
Farmers are historically market takers and not market makers in my opinion, right. So it is that education, but it's also the policy, the consumer demand whatever that's going to make that argument so compelling because I think right now people will tell you, I can tell regen to a farmer just off of they can manage their inputs and it's already profitable even if there's not some crazy premium you know, premium market for their products. But I think we're going to need to get all the way there. I think it's got to be that compelling to to take us all the way there one. Critique of regen is always, oh, I can't scale like this is a small farm thing and I I think what you guys are pricing in Europe totally contradicts that. So can you touch on that? Like what are some examples?
Keith Rowe - 0:59:10
Absolutely. I mean, what we see farmers over there. Who? Who? They don't get when you debit or certified, your entire farm is certified, right? Like you cannot just get one acre certified in your farm then call your farm by dynamic. So it's very, very strict. So an entire farm is certified. So what farmers will do, they will actually start an offshoot or a separate little farm and have a couple of acres on there. And this has been something I've seen kind of happen on constant scale in Europe. And they will have that farm certified by dynamic even though it's very small, we're a talking farmer.
Keith Rowe - 0:59:14
Market amounts of produce. But then what you'll do is they'll add on another acre onto that and then they'll add on another 10 acres onto that. And we see that happening. This is how Demeter approach farms and farmers in these small new Eastern European countries where this is the normal way of farming. You only have a couple of acres and it's small scale, but then they will have these farmers and incentivize them to keep adding acres onto their farms. And plant fruit trees now that we won't see any fruit from from years to come constantly financially incentivizing these guys and that's what they've done very, very well in Europe. I mean I think with Biden and farming is, is still growing at a really, really impressive rate in Europe. And as Europe starts to push more out towards Eastern European countries, we see it continuing to grow. And and that's, yeah, I mean we only, we'd only hope to see that kind of level happen in the US but that's what they've done in Europe and I think that.
Keith Rowe - 1:00:04
Each country in Europe has their own Demeter certification Board and what they've been able to do is really support the farmers through the education and also through the the financial means as well. They also help a lot of these farmers. They will actually buy a lot of the seeds. They'll give them educational courses, they will take them to other farms where they do internships. Yeah, and that's.
Meghan Rowe - 1:00:54
We're already starting to see some movement in the states. There's, there was always Demeter in the States and then there was the Biden Association. Yeah, they were two separate entities. The by Dynamics Association really focused on farmer welfare and supporting the farmer really honing in on the beautiful myth that is by dynamic from from the growing standpoint whereas Demter was more of compliance certification of the farms and such like that. So they finally they've merged they've become one entity now so and that just happened only a few months ago so. Everybody. It's starting to progress, yeah. So it'll be interesting to see how this this works. And they have a really great farm stewardship program for younger people wanting to get into farming, so it'll be interesting to see how this all unfolds.
Anthony Corsaro - 1:01:39
I think that that's the perfect ending point. It'll be very interesting to see how all this unfolds. Just thank you all so much for for joining us. Super informative and fun conversation and excited to.
Keith Rowe - 1:01:49
Share. Thanks guys. So.
Kyle Krull - 1:01:50
Much. Yeah. Thank you.
Anthony Corsaro - 1:01:57
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