#66 - Kyle Krull & Anthony Corsaro - Expo West Recap: Claims, Capital, & The Fallacy of Competition

Episode Recap:

ReGen Brands Recap #66 - Expo West Recap: Claims, Capital, & The Fallacy of Competition - (RECAP LINK)

Episode Transcript:

Disclaimer: This transcript was generated with AI and is not 100% accurate.

Kyle Krull - 00:00:15
Welcome to The ReGen Brands Podcast. This is a place for consumers operators and investors to learn about the consumer brands, supporting regenerative agriculture, and how they're changing the world. This is your host, Kyle, joined by my co-host, AC, who's gonna take us into the episode.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:00:34
On this episode, Kyle and I are flying solo to bring you some updates and thoughts coming out of Expo West. For those who don't know, Expo West is the annual Super Bowl of CPG. With over 67,000 attendees this year and a gathering of anyone and everyone working on CPG Brands supporting regenerative agriculture. From certifiers to investors, to the brands themselves, and many more. Kyle and I spent some time covering our personal highlights, favorite new products, plus the state of the union for CPG Capital Investment And Regenerative Marketing Claims. Curious to hear what y'all think about this one as we dove into a ton of topics and try to embrace some radical vulnerability along the way. Let's dive in.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:01:08
What's up, everybody? Welcome back to another episode of The ReGen Brands Podcast. You're either gonna be excited or disappointed today because it is just Kyle and myself. We are dropping in for a solo pod, the 4th solo pod, and we're gonna do a little Expo West recap. So what's up, brother? Good morning.

Kyle Krull - 00:01:38
Morning, man. I actually, as as right when you said, okay, let's go, I almost just did the opening just to throw everybody off. But you got it there too quick. So, you know, this this is a it's always a unique opportunity, which is just the 2 of us. Like, we can completely disrupt the usual flow. So I'm looking forward to diving in. Talking about, you know, what what happened at XPEL, what we wanna cover, some of the highlights, opportunities and things like that. So I'm excited.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:02:04
Yeah. It's good. We have a nice little outline, which means we'll probably cover 75% of that. And then 25% would just be totally random that comes from our brands here at the time that we record. So I'm looking forward.

Kyle Krull - 00:02:15
In in in previous episodes, like, in just so the audience knows, like, we don't schedule these. They basically happen when an audience or a an interview, we can't make it if there's a no show. So, like, we don't wanna lose an episode. Like, do we have something meaningful to talk about? Yes. Okay. We'll do something. And oftentimes we don't have an outline at all.

Kyle Krull - 00:02:27
So this one feels way more organized than the previous ones, and it'll be interesting to see how this turns out and how well we stick to the script. Yeah.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:02:39
And we have we have Expo West to thank for that, which we'll be focusing on kind of as the the basis of the conversation to prompt the conversation. So would actually love to hear from the audience if they enjoy these episodes and if they wanna hear more of them because I think we'd be happy to do them as well. Yeah, man. Let's let's dive in. I thought a fun place to start would just be kind of like personal highlights. So what really stood out, what was like the most fun and and, you know, satisfying for for you.

Kyle Krull - 00:03:06
Yeah. You know, I ironically didn't even put this on our outlines, so we're already deviating, but we when you said what was what was the most fun? I really have to say the ROC dinner. And what I loved about that was we got to see a lot of people in our community in our in our network, and we didn't talk a lot about the challenges we're facing. It was just good people trying to do right by the world hanging out. And it was super fun. There's a lot of laughter. These are people that we talk to on a regular basis that we don't get to see in person very often. Mhmm.

Kyle Krull - 00:03:35
But that really stood out to me as, like, one of the most fun nights where I really felt I made some deeper connections with some of that community that I really appreciated. So, shout out to Rock for putting that on. I thought it was great. You know, could have been more food. I will say that, but, but the food that was there was phenomenal. So that that was great.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:03:59
Yeah.

Kyle Krull - 00:04:00
Yeah.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:04:00
That that that's, like, my main theme too is just the human beings. And I think in this work, the challenges are very large. And sometimes hard to humanize. Like, it's hard to humanize solving climate change. It's hard to humanize solving human health. It's hard to humanize improving farmer livelihoods and improving soil health. But when you go get to see all these people that we're really trying to support in spotlight, that's like damn. Like, okay. I can do this work.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:04:20
This is why I do this work, and this is this is why it's really cool.

Kyle Krull - 00:04:32
Yeah. And it's just to be like, it's so rare, at least in my life, and I'm sure in your life as well. To be at an event surrounded by other people who are just as passionate. If not more so, than we are about trying to solve these problems. Like, that's just such a rare environment to be in. And I really appreciate it just being surrounded by that level of, like, positivity and intentionality.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:04:52
Yeah. Yeah. It's really cool. I I I'm actually proud of myself. I did not overdo it on the samples this year. My admission is that I literally did not walk the main hall. I had so many meetings and I had so many sessions that I legit went to the spins booth in the main hall and that's it. I did not walk the main hall. So I apologize to all of our friends that I was not able to see at their booth. I feel like I still almost got to see everyone. But curious if there was any new products or anything that stood out as kind of highlights on the on the product side.

Kyle Krull - 00:05:26
Well, I like you, which which is is a testament to how poorly we planned. Also didn't walk the main hall in any capacity.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:05:33
I planned. I planned. The plan just didn't work, so I was flag that.

Kyle Krull - 00:05:37
It's excellent, man. The plan never You know? This is how it goes. But, yeah, I I spent time in Hall E, North Hall, fresh ideas tension. That was essentially it. But to your point, I think that's where the bulk of the regen action takes place regardless. If there is anybody we missed to to reiterate Anthony's point, like, we sincerely apologize. But new stuff that we saw. I think the force of Nature Meatballs were phenomenal. I think that's a really great product extension for them into a new category that's not, like, too far outside the box. Right?

Kyle Krull - 00:06:01
It's a super simple format, and that's what I love about what force nature is doing is it it they're trying to make regenerative, convenient, and I think that's really, really important, for adoption. And this this could be a really great place. I'm curious to see how it pans out, but they were number 1 delicious. Packaging was great. I don't know what the price point's gonna end up being, but I'm sure it'll be premium like the rest of their stuff as it should be. So that was one that stood out to me. Part 2 was big picture food shelf stable line. I'm a huge big picture foods fan. I think everybody knows that.

Kyle Krull - 00:06:33
I love their olives in particular. And one of the most typical things for that brand, go ahead.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:06:49
I texted Danielle about 2 days ago, and I said, why are my salads 75% big picture banana peppers and 25 percent greens.

Kyle Krull - 00:06:58
Yeah. My my biggest question is, why aren't you putting the olives in your salad?

Anthony Corsaro - 00:07:01
I'm not a big olives guy. I'm not an olives guy.

Kyle Krull - 00:07:04
It's okay. You buy the peppers. I'll buy the olives. It'll work out. But one of the biggest challenges for that brand has been merchandising. You know, most olives in a store are not perishable. They're not refrigerated. So that's where their current lineup lives. And it's really hard to get consumers to find a new brand in a different part of the store where they're not used to shopping it. So Mhmm. I'm super pumped that they now need to compete on the primary, like, all of set in that shelf in that that area.

Kyle Krull - 00:07:23
And it, like, find those olive customers and and introduce this brand to them, which is fantastic. So it's another one I'm super pumped about. And then the last one, I don't even know if this is new product or But I tried the 1000 hills brisket bacon for the first time, and my god, as somebody who doesn't consume barely any pork, it was fantastic, and I will absolutely be purchasing some.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:07:54
Well, wait, brisket Bacon, wouldn't it be beef wouldn't it be beef then? Or no?

Kyle Krull - 00:07:58
It is. That that's what I mean because I don't I don't eat a lot of pork. So it's it's a beef bacon. I don't know how they do it, but it it was phenomenal.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:08:06
I'm gonna have to get my hands on some of that. Yeah. For

Kyle Krull - 00:08:09
me So those are my highlights, but, yeah, give me yours. What what what stood out to you?

Anthony Corsaro - 00:08:13
My number one is so random. I have a tie in first place between 2 different plantain chips.

Kyle Krull - 00:08:20
Have you historically been a plantain guy, or is

Anthony Corsaro - 00:08:22
this totally I mean, I I usually, when I go to the store, I'll grab Artisan Tropic Plantane Chips or I'll grab Zacksmiedy Chips Tortia Chips, but so simple and will have a new plantain chip. I don't I didn't see how they were gonna package it, but they were serving it and dude, it was unbelievable. Like, it was so good. And when I went to see one in the crew at the artisan tropic booth, they were trialing some new flavors on the existing plantain chips, and I can't reveal any secrets, but some of these new flavors were, unbelievable. Oh, yeah. So that was my tie for first. My my close second

Kyle Krull - 00:08:57
was Hold on. You didn't answer the question, though, historically are you a plantain guy? Is that, like, a a category you purchased or you're just, like, so blown away by these new products you wanna you wanna buy in?

Anthony Corsaro - 00:09:06
Yes. But not with any real consistency. And I would say, the 2 product experience I had would boost my consumption there to to a more frequent, like, to a higher frequency. So that's why they stood out to me. So, yeah. And, I mean, bro, close second. Maybe also type of first was the new flavors of Alex ice cream. I mean, just absolutely unreal lethal.

Kyle Krull - 00:09:30
Yeah.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:09:32
It's been really cool as a supporter and an investor to walk the fresh ideas tech 2 years in a row and just see that booth getting the entire time I'm in there for, like, an hour straight. Yeah. And that they're I wanna

Kyle Krull - 00:09:44
I wanna pause it and make 2 comments. To to reflect on the the products you're sharing. Number 1, Anthony's favorite color is yellow. So plantain chips do it. Like, that that is your category. You are now the champion of a plantain. And then from the Alex perspective, like, we we saw Alec the night before at the rock dinner. And I went to his booth. Number 1, hoping to talk to him. Number 2, hoping to trust a new ice cream. To your point, so mobbed the dude can't even have a conversation.

Kyle Krull - 00:10:02
He's just slinging ice cream left and right. The new flavors, I think I tried 2 of them. They were mind blowingly good. And to your to your point, I think you said dangerously good, and that is spot on. They're phenomenal. Which which one was your favorite?

Anthony Corsaro - 00:10:22
The the Palm Springs banana date shake, I think, is the the name of it. Yeah. That's the one that won the NextE, and they're using rock bananas from Will and so simple. And I learned I forget the gentleman's name, who was also at Will's booth. It's we basically just use the cavendish banana, which is the new, like, banana we see every everywhere in the grocery stores, but their farmers are still growing one of the older varieties. That's, like, much more flavorful. So everything so simple bananas, I'm I'm all for all the time. So I just love bananas and plantains.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:10:47
I guess that's what we're getting to on this episode.

Kyle Krull - 00:10:58
This is gonna be the name of the episode. AC's fascination with plantains slash bananas. Okay. Give me give me your number 3.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:11:07
I'm gonna go with the Kearns of Beer. I had not had it, and I had it at the rock dinner. And you know, in my adult life, I've taken a lot of time away from alcohol. I'm drinking at the moment. Not not a ton. But

Kyle Krull - 00:11:18
But as a child, you were heavy. You were a heavy user? You know, like No. Just like 5 to 8 just going hard.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:11:24
Coming out of college, just, you know, had a little health journey. And with the autoimmune disease, it was it was thing to kinda take some time off. And now my body's in a spot where it can it can handle it. But I but I always, like, hated beer, man, but I I feel like in my old age, I'm developing this actual love of beer. And the taste was solid. I really enjoyed, you know, just sipping on a few of those at the rock dinner. And, yeah, I thought I thought it was a winner and and has the potential to to do something in the marketplace. I'm sure.

Kyle Krull - 00:11:51
I love that feedback. I love that they're using Kearnsa. And again, they're they're figuring out how to get regenerative products into the hands of everyday consumers. Right? And I think that's really important. I don't consume beer, but I heard and I'm curious to get your take on this that that beer was lighter than anticipated. Forth. And I think it's a logger. Did you have similar feedback, or did you have a different experience?

Anthony Corsaro - 00:12:10
Yeah. It was not overwhelming. I don't think it was as light as a light beer, but, yeah, I I don't want a heavy beer, and I definitely, like, it was it was totally cool in my world. So I'm definitely not the right person to ask that question probably, but that would be my my very unprofessional feedback.

Kyle Krull - 00:12:26
Excuse me. I'm still sick from expo, so we're gonna keep dealing with this cough. I think that's really good feedback. Now that we've highlighted some of the our top products recap, let's get into some of, like, the regen momentum, the news what actually took place, on that front. And I guess, like, what feels like the most natural where, like, place to start the conversation is climate day. You know? So give us some high level takeaways. Like, what did you see and notice on Climate Day?

Anthony Corsaro - 00:12:54
Yeah. I mean, the comment I made to you was the climate day conversation and programming was extremely validating and frustrating. It was validating in the sense that feels like we're finally talking about the right things and it feels like we're all, like, saying the right things, but it also was frustrating in the fact that it still feels as though the people really doing the work to try and, you know, scale those solutions, implement those solutions, etcetera, are not necessarily supported, or they don't have the funding, or they don't have the traction, or whatever. And maybe that's maybe that's a little negative. I'm a, you know, hires and see perfectionist overachiever by nature. So that's probably just some of a me thing. But I thought that, Courtney and Caitlin and team did an amazing job organizing the programming. I really learned a lot.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:13:34
My favorite part is always the people, and just getting to see everybody and getting all those folks in the same room is such a a pleasure. But I really enjoyed the conversations. I thought that they were really well done. We still have a long way to go, but, you know, overall, a lot of good takeaways, a lot of good kind of focus points, I think, on some things that have not been discussed as much, in the past. Just by the ecosystem in general, not just at that event. So, yeah, that's that'd be my overall. How about you?

Kyle Krull - 00:14:10
I did go a lot of those same things, and, you know, I didn't attend climate day until last year. So this was climate day round 2 for me. Yeah. And equally frustrating for me at times, primarily because, no, to your point, like, people are saying all the the right things on stage. Like, oh, we wanna, like, invite people into regen. We wanna collaborate, and then when it comes time to actually, like, collaborating and letting people into And it doesn't feel like that's necessarily happening at least from from my purview. Yeah. And I don't mean to discredit or disqualify any individuals who are up there on stage. And I think everybody does have good intentions Mhmm.

Kyle Krull - 00:14:39
But we're, like, the penalties of payment. Like, it doesn't feel like we're getting that same level of commitment to big tent. And or collaboration that we hear from the individuals on stage, and that's a little bit disheartening at times.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:14:58
Mhmm. Yeah. It feels we're building a lot of, like, regional highway or railroad systems without any sort of road map for what it's gonna look like across the whole country in a way. And it seems like we are not acknowledging that that might be a huge issue that we're gonna have to pay the piper for down the down the line. God, I love when I just get an analogy off, just off rip like that.

Kyle Krull - 00:15:22
That was a phenomenal one. You don't wanna build on it, but it it it also feels like a lot of redundancy. It's like people building the same roads, connect seem to, like, aim to connect the same people to the same places. Like, why can't we work together to build one bigger road all at the same time, you know, and reduce the amount of energy effort raw materials to continue way way too far down with this metaphor, just to build this bigger road. You know? So Yeah. Great analogy.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:15:46
It it feels like even though we cannot synergize everything, we're leaving a lot of synergies on the table because we can't synergize everything, which seems like a mistake.

Kyle Krull - 00:15:57
Yeah. No. Very well said, and totally agree. Now let's let's, you know, to use a a very popular movie right now, let's find the common ground. Focus on that. And figure out how how we can work together to, you know, build these roads or bridges or whatever you wanna call them together.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:16:12
Yeah. Which is another good segue. We know there's a common ground screening. I was not able to attend, but I heard it was very well attended. The content was great. So I thought that was kind of another good momentum point for the crew. And then we had we had some big news. I mean, going into the week, this is pretty typical that there's some big news, at expo or going right into expo. If you read our newsletter, sorry for the redundancy, but I do think it's kinda worth, like, listing some of these off. So we had 5 regenerative brands or products take home nextees. That's huge. So shout out to Good Sam, Artisan Tropic, Alex ice cream, Burrow's family farms, and Patagonia provisions.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:16:40
I mean, I thought that that was amazing. Like, that's that's a large percentage of of the next season. We also had a couple really big scale brands kind of make some significant announcement. The first being Applegate, which is going to source their entire beef hotdog portfolio from a 100% certified regenerative beef by the end of 2025. That's here.

Kyle Krull - 00:17:11
Need to have a conversation with them about what they're doing with those bones.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:17:14
Yeah. So Yes. You do.

Kyle Krull - 00:17:16
Definitely on my radar.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:17:18
And then on the rock side, we had Lundberg become the leading, US rock food brand, and they basically are going to be having regenerative organic certified rice in 70 plus per here rolling out soon or kind of already existing out in the marketplace. So that that was huge. And then on the capital side, we obviously had Serenity Kids raised $52,000,000 from Stride Consumer Partners, which I thought was an amazing kind of litmus, and proof point for the marketplace of, hey, you can do regenerative. You can do it, in a category. You can let it be kind of leading your innovation as they have. And if you if you have the right business, like, you can you can scale this thing pretty well and attract the kind of financing to, you know, turn it into a powerhouse, you know, brand. So I was I was very excited about that on the capital side.

Kyle Krull - 00:18:03
Yeah. I think you're spot on, man, to see any sort of regenerative brand closing that kind of a funding round. I think since a really strong signal, I I think baby food is another one of those sort of like leading categories, for a variety of reasons. You know, when you think about categories that sort of ignite change. You know, it's chocolate, it's wine. There's probably another big one that I'm missing, but baby food comes into play. And as somebody who doesn't have children and isn't planning to have children, it kind of it's almost frustrating. Like, people care so much about their kids, but they don't really care about themselves in that same fashion.

Kyle Krull - 00:18:31
But I also get why people care about their kids, and they wanna ensure that they're getting the most nutrients possible in the least toxic, you know, food packaging and things like that. So I think it's one of those gateway categories where if a parent can understand what regenerative is and make sure they're giving that to their infant, gonna wanna continue with that same level of quality throughout their development. Right? So it's a great kind of starting point, and I'm really excited to see that sort of capital infusion in that space?

Anthony Corsaro - 00:19:02
Yeah. I had a I had one of the emails in my inbox, like, with a trends list, and it was talking about I the term they use, but basically this gap between baby food and adult food. So it's like young life, like, early early years nutrition. I I forget the term they use But there is this gap. Right? It's like you you do baby food until whatever age, three, four, five, six years old. I don't know.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:19:19
And then you go right into, like, Annie's mac and cheese or, like, granola bars or whatever, which, hey, those still might be better for you, but are they really, like, healthy? Which is where I see things like the force of nature meatballs. Like, that is a great play because I'm buying a ton of force of nature ancestral brand all the time. But if I had kids, I know it would be much harder for me to kinda ground and and brown that meat and season it and sauce it up. Like, bam, I just buy the meat as coming into

Kyle Krull - 00:19:51
a bowl, put it in the oven, bake it, you know, bring it back out, freeze it, you know, use it again. Yeah. It's a lot of process.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:19:58
Yeah. So I think there's a huge, I I agree, that there's a huge gap there. And I think we'll see some some brands either, creating category or line extensions to cover that gap or, people refreshing existing brand portfolios or kind of new entrants that are focused on this this childhood window, which would be, like, post toddler to, like, preteen. I think

Kyle Krull - 00:20:18
I

Anthony Corsaro - 00:20:18
think there's opportunities there.

Kyle Krull - 00:20:20
I think you're spot on, man. And, you know, if you if you think, like, that's a mild cool adolescent days, it's like gushers, food

Anthony Corsaro - 00:20:27
pull up. Like, this it's like

Kyle Krull - 00:20:29
the most artificial time period of, like, consumption, which is such a bummer. And, I I hope your your theory is correct. And I and I think it will be. It will see a lot more development there and maybe some new entrants. And I'm excited to see what they come up because it's needed. And, obviously, also needed in the adult space, but we got plenty of brands already kind of working on that solve. So if we can bridge that gap, fantastic.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:20:50
Yeah. One one other positive thing I saw was more just, like, exciting new things and and more presence from some of the other certifications. So rock was rocking in the fresh ideas tent. The dinner was amazing. They continued to do amazing things. It was good to see regenafied. You know, they've hired some new team members. They had some panels. You know, they had some more brands. They had some cool news.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:21:07
I know Christine from their team and then Gabe Brown were on the new Hope podcast coming out of expo. We'll have that in the next newsletter. So I I was it was great to see them with a larger presence. It was great to see a greener world. Have a table in the fresh ideas tent. I know, you know, they have a returner protocol and some some good brands there.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:21:26
And then we saw the SCI kind of rebrand and talk a lot of those brands that are in the pilot program, and we know things are coming very soon with, folks getting that label on pack and and doing some great work there. So it was good to see kind of this diversity of certification landscape continue to grow and evolve and and kind of branch out.

Kyle Krull - 00:21:48
Yeah. That almost makes me wanna jump to the the OSC moment, and I don't know if now is the time to go there or not. So I guess I guess before we go there, let's just let's keep it at, like, Expo West, like, what did we see? One other trend I saw more than just about anything else, which is not regen related at all, but I think it's important to just talk about trends.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:22:06
Yeah.

Kyle Krull - 00:22:07
Was the transition to aluminum. That was like an overarching theme. I saw way more aluminum in all sorts of different categories than I ever had before. Not necessarily regenerative. Aluminum has its pros and cons certainly, but it's a hell of a lot better than single use plastic. So just another positive trend that we can give some credit to. So I I was happy to see it, but overall to me from, like, a total expo perspective, I didn't get this, like, overwhelming, like, oh, everybody's doing this or, like, it the year of cold brew, or, you know, so many kombuchas. Last year, it felt like this weird resurgence of coconut water. But that was sort of like my biggest high level trend takeaway. Did you see anything on your end that really stood out.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:22:51
Having not walked the main hall, I feel like I have a limited sample size to answer that question. I'm trying to think there wasn't a ton. I feel like I saw a lot of mushroom, like functional mushroom usage. Yeah. I don't know if that's that new. And I feel like maybe some of that has replaced some of the the plant based meat, fake meat type stuff. That definitely has regressed significantly, which I I'm happy to see. Maybe others are not.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:23:14
So I I I kinda was, like, looking out for that and was was excited by the fact that I didn't see a ton of it. I mean, my overall takeaway is the same one I posted about on LinkedIn last year, which is just there's still so much bullshit. There's just still so much No doubt. Money and time and energy being thrown at things that I don't really know if they're solving any real problem. Like, they're they're definitely not solving any societal problems, but I don't even feel like they're innovating in a category or, you know, have a real solid growth trajectory or plan. So, I don't know. It's very easy for me to say that armchair quarterback, but, that continues to be, like, my big takeaway is just lot of lot of love.

Kyle Krull - 00:23:59
Yeah, man. I don't mean to throw any particular brands under the, under the gun here, but when you say that I can't help but think about the plant based caviar, company.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:24:07
Yeah. Yeah. Like,

Kyle Krull - 00:24:09
you know, like

Anthony Corsaro - 00:24:10
What are we doing?

Kyle Krull - 00:24:11
Yeah. Exactly. You know, there's there's so much quote innovation that's coming out there that really feels like it's just trying to ride the coattails of existing trends like, oh, you know, where it hasn't planned pigs? Plant based on yet. And if the only answer to that question is caviar, like, do we need a plant based caviar? I don't know. You know, maybe maybe there's somebody who's thrilled about that. I have yet to meet that individual personally. Yeah. Yeah.

Kyle Krull - 00:24:27
But, yeah, to your point, there there's so much that is under the guise of health food or better for people or better for planet, that I just don't really think is very authentic. And I think that's why you and I are so stimulated and loved. There's been so much time with, regenerative brands because it feels so real. And so authentic and so connected to the agricultural practices that, like, it's just the most fun place to spend our time.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:24:58
Yeah. Which leads to this tension point that we've talked about a lot that we continue to need to reinforce, which is There should be some economic incentive and a way to build regenerative into the business that you get compensated for it, but the reality is there's not So you have to translate it into one of the leading value props or one of the other things that really matters more like taste, health, and nutrition. Price if if you have, you know, some decent scale, etcetera. And I think we have to continue to kind of beat that beat that horse because you know, it's so important and it's so clear that when you go to a when you go to the show, that is what drives purchase. You know, that is what drives growth. We have good retailer interest, right, and they're putting an emphasis on regenerative, in the mix, but, you know, we still gotta have you know, these these consumer groups that are that are really supporting these brands and driving velocities and profitability.

Kyle Krull - 00:25:51
I think you're spot on. And, again, this is something don't have on the outline, but I think it's important to highlight, like, you actually moderated a panel that talked about a lot of these topics, and I would love to get your sort of high level takeaways, like, what did you feel you received back from the panelists? Mhmm. And how how do how do we, like, package it up and roll up so our audience is sort of like, if they weren't there, what did they miss?

Anthony Corsaro - 00:26:13
Yeah. I I think they recorded it, and they will, like, post it on YouTube for anyone to watch. So I'll I'll get that information out at the right time. I'll just flag that. It was a really great panel. We had Nick from Little Sesame. We had Brita from Lundberg. We had Sherry from Nielsen IQ, and we had Guy from Vitacos. So we had 2 brands, a data provider, and a retailer.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:26:26
What I thought was the most interesting thing was really a lot of guys' perspective on the retailer side, and and vinyl cost is Yeah. It's an e commerce player that doesn't sell maybe the full mix that you would see at a at a brick and mortar grocery store. However, you know, he was pretty hesitant to say there's any real data or hard kinda line things on the sustainability claim side that are, you know, that they're building that they're, like, right, underwriting business unit economics with, which that's probably not a great time for a lot of us investing in that. Or it's just a good indicator that, like, it can't be the main thing. So it definitely it definitely feels like for retailers and consumers, it can be a good tie breaker and it's still import since, but overall, my grand takeaway was we're still stuck in this not translating preference to purchase. And what I mean by that is know, we have all this data that says people prefer sustainable products or people would pay more for sustainable products, but I don't know if that's actually showing up in the end data.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:27:23
Which once again, it's not it's not trying to be negative. It's just trying to be a realistic of what do we need to do tactically with these products and these brands in the overall movement.

Kyle Krull - 00:27:43
Yeah. I really appreciate that feedback. And I also was most stimulated by what guy had to say, which I was not expecting at all for that panel. And what really what I was most impressed by was his level of empathy for the challenges regenerative brands face. And what was also most interesting was the fact that, like, retailers are just not set up to help, absorb some of that incremental cost. You know, he's talking about the cost of the cost of raw materials and all these things. And he's very aware of those challenges regenerative brands face, but he also, like, flat out said, I don't know if there's going to be a way for for retailers to absorb that additional cost. Like, it has to get passed through to consumers. And to your point where you just mentioned, like, We have yet to see that data really translate, and that brings me to something that I wanted to talk about later, but we'll talk about it now.

Kyle Krull - 00:28:21
And we'll probably revisit it later, but, like, To me, the key there is, like, the lack of consumer education, like, we continue to talk about, you know, and, we'll we'll just leave it at that for now. We'll dive in a little bit further. But that's really, like, the problem that I feel every year at leaving Nashville was, like, we have to continue to prioritize that problem.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:28:48
Yeah. Yeah. And it's gotta be it's gotta be a multi stakeholder engagement and solution. It can't just be, hey, brands go figure that out. And and then and we'll get you on the shelf. Like, that's that's where we stop. And so

Kyle Krull - 00:29:00
Right.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:29:00
I think I think on the regen side, retailers are willing to do more than they've done, but they maybe haven't been given the tools or the program to to do something as effective as it needs to be. The the most interesting point I think he made was, like, he was like, hey, we want 3rd party certifications to a claims and be, you know, avoid greenwashing and be high integrity. And I don't think that branch should have to pay a bunch of money for them. So it's like talking out of both sides. And he admitted that. Right? And these are the things we're struggling with, which are, hey, it's really almost your tax to do the right thing, but also go figure it out in this capitalistic model and figure it out the unit economics and make it work.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:29:26
And it's like, man, we have to we have to build things that can endure in the current constraints while also trying to think at a high level of how we change the system overall to you know, to to lighten that load in the long term.

Kyle Krull - 00:29:52
Yeah, man. And I'll I'll bring it back to an experience I just had this week. You know, I I sat down with Whole Foods earlier this week. And learned a little bit more about their good, better, best pricing system. And essentially, they look at every category and they want to have a good, player in that category, a better and a best, and maybe 2 to 3 variety variants in each one. And Hope Foods also mentioned to me that, like, their primary, one of their primary goals right now is unit velocity. They wanna be more more competitive with the rest of market and really focus on unit velocity. And they're comparing themselves more so with, like, the conventional channel than they are the natural channel. Wow. Those are 2 takeaways.

Kyle Krull - 00:30:24
And then the 3rd part is, like, any regenerative brand automatically becomes best. So they automatically take a higher margin on a regenerative brand because they qualify as a best brand, but they wanna focus on unit velocity, which having a higher price point makes it harder to achieve. Higher turns. So that feels contradictory. And it's it's another one of those, like, pain points that regenerative brands just face this, like, massive uphill battle. And until we can figure out how to, like, collectively solve some of these problems or maybe even individually to your point, it's gonna continue to be that much harder as a regenerative brand.

Kyle Krull - 00:30:53
To, to really succeed in this environment. So just wanna call that out as another pain point that is, We'll call it an opportunity to improve for the industry.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:31:12
Yeah. And and I I think we should round out this part of the conversation by just saying, like, we embrace the cockdale paradox, I think, is what it's called in the book, good to great, which is like addressing the brutal facts and having eternal optimism. And so I do wanna add, like, there was all these really cool data points of brands doing really well. Brand's growing. Brand's making great margin and good unit economics and scaling and getting new distribution and all these things. And so, you know, we have all that, and we need to celebrate all that. And we need to square up with the things that need to be dealt at a micro on a our level to to kind of software as a as a group.

Kyle Krull - 00:31:46
Totally agree. But, yeah, let's take this as an opportunity to pivot. You know, you've got a whole section in here of 4 high high bullet points with multiple sub bullet points beneath in the section of the outline called capital. As you are the capital, between the two of us without a doubt. We'd love to get some of your high level takeaways from a capital perspective. Like, what did you see? Not necessarily at expo, but in the meetings and like that. Give us a gap.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:32:10
Yep. Yeah. Lots of things, and it was good to catch up with a lot of folks. So kind of just taking things away from various conversations with brands, investors, other stakeholders, different sessions, different reports that have been coming out. I mean, my biggest theme is, like, number 1, profitability and pace growth. This is gonna continue to be the theme as we have this kind of contraction in capital and interest, and we have this reset in the overall kind of macro economy and the venture economy, which has also tripled down into CPG Venture. So, you know, my advice to brands is really to focus on profitability. It's to focus on pace growth. And it's to raise money in smaller chunks if you are raising money with very clearly defined outcomes that you can say, Mister and Missus investor, give me these $5.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:32:45
I'm gonna go do exactly this with the $5 and then you can come back for another $5, meaning you can show very clearly. We did exactly what we said we're gonna do. Here are the KPIs, here are the achievements. I think that's gonna be the, you know, the the the game we're playing for the foreseeable future for at least the next 24 to 36 months and and beyond. And it's honestly better business fundamentals, and it's really if if you research brands that have success, Most of them have grown that way anyway. So I actually think it's overall really good.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:33:22
There are just gonna be some brands that have gotten caught spending some money, having some high valuations that are gonna get reset in this window. And what we're gonna see is and what we're already seeing is a lot of the capital is gonna shift later stage. So they're gonna shift to, you know, we used to wanna see a brand with $5,000,000 in TTM. Now it's 10. Or it used to be 10 and now it's 20. So you're gonna see a lot more bigger bets, I think, in those later stage rounds or in the, you know, the growth stage, VC or the private equity stuff.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:33:47
More so than the emerging brand side, which is all the more reason why we need to continue to spotlight. I think the needs of those sub sub 5, sub 10, sub $20,000,000 brands because these are the folks that are building regenerative supply chains of the utmost integrity. And we have to find a way to support them and scale them as long as they're good businesses as well, right, so that we can have kind of some scale solutions that maintain that integrity throughout. Throughout their growth.

Kyle Krull - 00:34:23
I think that's a great call, man. And as my, like, tactical retail brain kicks in with what you're saying, to me, that's almost like, how do you essentially utilize these invest and capital dollars to fund the expansion portion of your business while at the same time ensuring that once that expansion is complete, your next year of turns is gonna be profitable. Right? And, you know, what what does that look like? So essentially, like, if you're a Southern California based brand, for example, as your Expo WES will start there and you then want to expand into Northern California. So you're opening up new distribution, new distributors, new retail. So it's a lot of free fills. It's a lot of money and investment you're throwing into that.

Kyle Krull - 00:34:51
And that's where you can, like, use these dollars to and that growth, pay for the initial wave of distribution, and then your job as an operator is to ensure good trade spend rates you know, strategic promotions, utilization of key partners like brokers or merchandisers or whoever, to keep your churns at the right velocity so that once that 1st year cycles through and you don't have to pay slotty in year 2, that that's a profitable year. Right? So I guess from your investment side, like, does that feel like the right sort of, like, action plan. Is that what you're looking for? Is there something else that I'm missing?

Anthony Corsaro - 00:35:29
Yeah. I think what I'm looking for is people showing a very clear plan that they're rightsizing retailer mix and and unit economics and retail, unit economics. So what I mean by that is show me what accounts you're really making money in that are worthwhile to kind of continue to invest in. Show me ones that you might not be that you have a very clear plan to either improve or let go of. And from a growth strategy per perspective, show me a distribution plan that is going to be, you know, as profitable as soon as possible that you actually have the means to support, good velocities in turns. And so I think it's about unit economics, individual unit retail economics, and then overall kind of account economics. Those would be the three layers that I'd be really looking at with a fine tooth comb.

Kyle Krull - 00:36:14
I love that. I love that feedback. I think it's super beneficial for any of the branch we're looking to raise. Like, you know, how do I do this the right way? How do I tell the right story to my investment, you know, audience? Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. Are there any other major capital takeaways that you wanna cover before we pivot in the next section?

Anthony Corsaro - 00:36:31
I I think similar theme as some of the other stuff we've talked about, like, a lot of momentum, a lot of cool stuff, And we have these big hairy problems that are really hard to solve that have a lot less momentum, a lot less conversation, and a lot less support than they need. I was really excited to see one step closer. We'll link their organization in the in the show notes. They hosted a session on capital and kind of new and innovative, like, ways to to fund brands. Everything from equity to debt to new structures to all kinds of stuff. It was it was a really cool session. But once again, just like with some of the regen sessions, It's so it was a big room, and it was very well attended.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:37:07
But if you think about it compared to the overall attendance of the event, just like, man, we need We need to 10 x the people in this room. We need to 10 x the people working on this, and we need to 10 x the capital going into trialing these potential solutions. I think the problem is becoming clearer. The community working on them, you know, very earnestly needs to even be better at our the problem, which I'm doing some work on the back end on on our side from the regenerative brand perspective. And then we have to go be willing to find people that are going to invest impact first or first lost or research and development type capital into funding mechanisms that we say, hey. We have stress tested this to our best ability to think it's gonna work, and it's gonna have a pro form a and a return and a financial model like x, but we really don't know because it is so outside the status quo.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:37:52
But we need to go try it. And then we need to come back and say, hey. These parts worked. These parts didn't worked. Let's go, you know, inject more money into strategies that we feel we feel good about based on those learnings. And so, you know, the overall theme there is the needs for innovative financing and financial innovation are really outpacing the support coming to greet those.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:38:13
So I love that session that they put together. I love the work that Elliot Began is doing at Tig Brands and some other folks in that community. And that there's some really cool innovative ideas. I think now we need to see the organization and the capital come behind those ideas for us to go put together proof concepts to then go scale, you know, with more assets under management. So, yeah, that that would be that'd be takeaway number 2.

Kyle Krull - 00:38:51
I think it's great. And I think from an order of operations perspective, which, you know, is like one of my favorite things to talk about. Like, it's good to have those different vehicles developed so that the core drivers or investors can come in and figure out, like, hey. Which one of these which one of these am I willing to participate in? And, of course, it's not great that at the moment to your point, like, the the capital pool has yet to catch up to, the investment vehicles that are available. Mhmm. Mhmm. But it's good that we have that developed and some people working on it. I am not super close to all of that work.

Kyle Krull - 00:39:14
So I commend you and your ability to, like, stay close there and share that with our our audience because it's critical to the success of this movement.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:39:30
Yeah. And if we think about CPG, like, we pour a bunch of money into product innovation, formulation innovation, like innovating within skews or new skews or within categories, and everyone's obsessed with that. And that that really drives growth. We have to think of finance the same way. Like, we can't just innovate in only certain sections of the business. We have to innovate in from a financing perspective and a capitalization of. And we're just gonna have to continue to go tell the actual funders of the funders, you know, the people that the fund managers really raise money from, that story, and and get them to catalyze some capital.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:39:53
And when I look at the regen landscape, there's there's three things that I'm very interested in and having very high level, just kind of dialogues around. 1 is debt equity hybrid structures. So what we see is the the typical venture just equity kind of play is not working for a lot of these brands, especially the brands that might have less of a clear path or a longer path to a a $100,000,000 in revenue and an and an exit to a strategic. So debt or some debt equity hybrid is usually a better path for those brands. Do we structure that? How do we do that?

Anthony Corsaro - 00:40:32
What does that look like at various different stages? What do the returns look like? What does the governance look like for the for the operation? I'm very interested in kind of exploring those models and seeing if we can put something more formal together there. I also think there's a huge opportunity for inventory financing on the regen side. So we've had this proliferation in, tech, fintech, CPG, inventory financing solutions, but ultimately, especially as interest rates have gone up, they're still pretty predatory and they still are not bespoke enough for a lot of the regenerative brands, and they don't put any value on the ecosystem services or the non monetary value of the goods being produced and being bought from whatever farm they're being bought from.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:40:57
So was really cool to see recently how Stewart is partners partnering with low bucks if for a line of credit on their inventory purchasing. And if we can scale that into a fund or some sort of more formal structure with a lot more AUM behind it and get some some impact lending and impact debt into the system, I think that that would help a lot of the brands operate a lot better and cleaner. And then the other thing that people have been talking about and kinda kinda throwing into the ether is, is there some sort of, you know, lower market private equity strategy where we can roll up some of these smaller brands and and synergize across, like, back office or across sales and marketing if they have similar categories or in the same category. I think your biggest issue there is gonna be the human element of you have a bunch of really cool founders that don't wanna give up control of their baby to that. To that, regard. But is there a way to do that that's not like a majority shareholder private equity model where we could still collaborate and synergize or, you know, is is there another way to kind of create that outcome without it having to come through that model of investment?

Anthony Corsaro - 00:42:17
So Yeah. I know. I just hit you with a lot. So I'll stop there.

Kyle Krull - 00:42:33
That was a lot. But I think the piece that resonated the most with me is the way you compared financial innovation within the space to product innovation within case. And especially when you think about, you know, maybe the last 10 years of CPG, natural CPG with exits like R XBAR, you know, the evaluations we're seeing for liquid death you know, chameleon cold brew. All the all these organizations were like, the model was essentially VC backed 5 to 7 year turn and burn. No regard for impact on planetary health. Now credit to liquid death, putting water in a can is way better than water in a bottle. So, you know, that that's that's good stuff. I don't wanna say that none of those brands cared all about impact, but when you think about the different level of commitment to impact that the regenerative brands are facing, that gets a completely different model.

Kyle Krull - 00:43:08
And that same 5 to 7 year turn and burn cycle, like, doesn't necessarily fit. So to your point, like, as these brands are innovating to do better for the long term, the financial mechanisms need to accommodate for that because we're not gonna have the same outcomes or at least we don't want to. Right? So those those financial vehicles have to change. So I I just really like the way you laid that out.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:43:38
Yeah. No. I appreciate that. And it seems like we should we should move to the the most salacious, probably part of the conversation, which, you know, we've titled claims. So you know, in our world, regenerative means a lot of things to a lot of different people. And I think where I've kinda gotten to is that it means different things in different context of the supply chain. So what I mean by that is you could have a farm that adopts regenerative practices. You could also have a farm that's fully regenerative. You could have a product that's making a regenerative claim about just, incentivizing practice adoption or or making incremental improvement. You could have a product claim that's fully regenerative.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:44:11
And there still is not this agreement in the space around how we really navigate that from a CPG perspective. A lot of people doing awesome work. It's pretty fair that it's at that point because it all is still nascent and pretty new. But, you know, yeah, that's that's what we wanna focus on. So I'll I'll I'll see where you wanna take it in terms of your your high level thoughts to kick it off.

Kyle Krull - 00:44:47
Yeah, man. I mean, I think the first place I think about trying to go is the OAC event. You know, and I don't remember what that event was called. I do think I know, like, what the primary intention was, but I guess before we even go there, like, do you remember what what the event was called in, like, why it was important that it was put on?

Anthony Corsaro - 00:45:06
From my understanding, which we could be wrong, and I'm I'm more than happy to be corrected here, was it was an event in support of how the ROA and ROC and some of the leaders from that community are trying to get organic established as the baseline in these conversations with CDFA, the California Department of Agriculture. So my my understanding was it was the it was not really designed to be kind of an open roundtable discussion as it turned into. It was really designed to present their case. And garner support for it from people that, that would agree with that. And I think what it turned into was a lot of people from the regent community coming trying to voice an opinion that maybe that that is not the approach that they agreed with. So, you know, yeah, that that that was my understanding, which once again could be wrong.

Kyle Krull - 00:45:54
No. I'm I'm spot on there, and I think it's important to highlight for the audience, like, why this California decision is so important. You know, California is a massive agriculture state, not just in the United States, but it's actually a massive agricultural economy globally. And what California might say or do could have ripple effects beyond not just from a United States perspective, but from a global perspective. So how California defines regenerative agriculture actually has global implications for the entire movement. So as small as California might seem, it it has a lot of weight to throw around. And, I see. I think you were spot on, I think, and and I think that the it the group who put it on OSE and ROC and ROA and Bryce a phenomenal job kind of laying their arguments, and say, hey.

Kyle Krull - 00:46:28
This is what we believe. This is why we believe regenerative needs to be organic. And that that's essentially quote the the point they're trying to make, right, that regenerative and organic need to be tied together. Mhmm. And I also believe, Anthony, you're spot on that is sort of de facto became roundtable discussion about like, well, does that need to be the case? And I should say kudos to everybody in that room, for showing up and having what, to me, felt like a relatively productive conversation that wasn't necessarily, like, claws out.

Kyle Krull - 00:47:00
And I do feel like there was some level of empathy understanding and legitimate listening that took place. And it was, like, truly an honor just to be in the room with these various organizations that have wildly different interpretations of these terms.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:47:28
And So or or but they're all people that are doing amazing work that's really important. So that's the most interesting piece. And I think Sorry to cut you off, but, like, the word empathy stood out to me so much. And I found myself feeling so empathetic to really all sides that even we're in disagreement with each other. And I was like, god, I just heard that person, and that makes so much sense. And I totally understand why there's they're saying that. And that someone might say the complete opposite thing, and I'd be like, God, that makes so much sense. And I totally understand why they're saying that.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:47:52
So, yeah, that that was that was very pleasant I felt.

Kyle Krull - 00:48:01
Yeah. I I totally agree. I'm glad you cut me off, but I also completely lost my train of thought, and I don't know where I'm going. But, yeah, that go ahead.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:48:10
Yeah. My my other big takeaway is that I feel like as a community, we're running from that conversation. Like, we're having it in in back rooms with the people that we agree with or we're having it on Zoom calls, but, like, what what the session turned into was largely probably half or 75% of the time a presentation, and then maybe 25 to 50% of the time was a discussion. That lasted, what, 30, 30, 40 minutes, maybe total before it was, like, formally adjourned.

Kyle Krull - 00:48:38
I was gonna say formally, it fell even less than that to me. I think it might have been, like, 20 minutes of actual discussion.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:48:44
And and it it feels like to me, we need someone to convene that group and maybe even a little bit broader and literally lock us in a room. For an entire day, if necessary, and and and to have, like, a fully, like, open Roman Roman senate, like, hearing where we just we just say all of it because it it feels like there actually is so much, there there's there's so much agreement and progress just buried underneath our ego and politics and and lack of organization and commitment to just having that open forum. Now that may be way too hopeful and optimistic and and and dumb. So feel free for people to think that, but, like, I really do believe that in my heart of hearts.

Kyle Krull - 00:49:29
Yeah. I I couldn't agree more. I think it it will be extremely challenging to try to put that on, but if we can make it happen, there's no doubt in my mind, like, to your point earlier, all of these individuals, these humans, and these organizations are trying to do the right thing from their own perspective. And there's so much. I mean, if it's 30% alignment, 50% alignment, 70% alignment with them, the number might be. Let's hone in on what that is. Figure out how we partner to work together to solve for those problems. I also have like a shower thought coming out of that that, that meeting, literally, like, in the shower, like, days later.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:50:06
Yeah.

Kyle Krull - 00:50:07
And it was that regenerative and organic can't mean the same thing. And it that is so inherent in the name regenerative organic. You know, if I started a consulting agency that was called smart intelligent consulting. Nobody would ever want me to be their consultant because those 2 things mean the same thing. Right? So for regenerative organic certified Yeah. Those 2 words inherently mean different things, and we have to honor that, and they they chose those words for a reason. And I don't even know if they understand why they chose the 2 words and that the and that because they did, they can't be tied. They can't be married.

Kyle Krull - 00:50:36
You know, and I still wanna give all the credit in the world to that organization and the individuals behind it, but I hope that they can see the same thing that allowing market validation for a regenerative products where not yet organic is not a threat, but it is an opportunity to get more arable land into a regenerative organic state eventually. And I think that was one of my biggest takeaways. That I really empathize with, especially hearing Bryce, you know, Horace for Lundberg, who is a brand, you know, and he was talking about share and losing share, having Organic and regenerative organic losing share to these regenerative brands and how they can threaten their businesses. And from my vantage point as a brand, I can 100% understand that that level of complexity. Like, if, I sell bone broth. If there's a a different company that doesn't use real bones, that's taking share from bone broth, like, I'm gonna be like, hey. This isn't legit. They're taking share.

Kyle Krull - 00:51:33
It's deceiving to consumers. Like, I can understand that. But I think it's a little bit different for this regenerative organic argument, and it it really is about getting people to start the adoption practice because in my mind, and I'm not a farmer. But in my mind, the reason farmers are not yet organic and don't want them to commit to that jump is fear. They are afraid that the transition they're not going to get paid the premium they deserve. They're going to have to reduce these inputs they've been relying upon.

Kyle Krull - 00:52:02
And eventually, like, maybe not make as much money or go out of business. And in my mind, the way you overcome that fear is not by saying you have to be this it's that, hey, try this, start to build that soil fertility, and then you'll automatically become less dependent on those inputs, and eventually you can get to the point where you don't need them. And that has to be something they learn on their own. They can't be told.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:52:34
Yeah. It it's really about trying to, like, bifurcate or trifurcate what we're talking about. And for a group of for a community that all makes money on marketing products and using words and and advertising, It's almost like we've completely forgot how to use Nuance messaging to create some sort of framework that has a little bit of Nuance and I'm gonna riff on something that is not prepared whatsoever. So we'll see how this comes out. But it almost feels like to me, If we assume that the vast majority of consumers won't care or at least they won't make a purchasing decision purely because of a product's regenerativeness, And it's mainly a B2B instrument for food integrity and decision making and, you know, claims work and sustainability efforts, then why can't we have a more nuanced system? If the consumer ultimately is not gonna care, and, like, my opinion with, if you look at organic, like, something even more complicated in esoteric than organic can be really hard to teach people about. We should do it for the people that will care. I think it's important. So I'm all for that.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:53:39
And from a macro perspective, I'm almost under the impression now that we can have, like, let's call it three tier, just just to throw a spaghetti at the wall. Right, which is our our product or supply chain is incentivizing regenerative practice adoption. We are not saying it's fully regenerative system. We are not saying the farms are fully regenerative. We are just saying like, hey, the sale of this product and the the work behind it is getting more regenerative practice adopted on the land. Good.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:54:03
That might be step 1 bottom left. In the middle could be some sort of step up from that. That's not a fully this product is fully regenerative with a third party cert claim, but some sort of elevation of that, right, that that's that's further on the path. And I feel I feel the least confident about how to how to perfectly articulate that. And then in the top right, you have this is a fully return of product with a third party certification from a fully return of operation that looks like X. Right? Why why can't we have that? Like, that's not that hard. There's a lot of details and questions around that. I I understand all that.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:54:36
But that to me is something that I think the industry could understand, and I think the consumer could understand, at least the ones that care and the most are not. And and what really sparked this whole thought was like, my girlfriend goes to the store and buys silk almond milk yogurt. The other day. And I send Kyle the picture of the top of the lid that she sends me and it says, this yogurt supports regenerative practices or something like that. That's okay. You know, that company's own that brand's owned by Denone.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:55:11
I don't know if their regenerative work is legit, but if it's legit, that claim is not the same as saying this yogurt is regenerative. It is saying that this supply chain is incentivizing and increasing a net positive benefit to the environment to planetary health, to human health, through the adoption of practices. And I feel like we need to, like, establish that lower rung, establish this higher rung that is the fully regenerative third party certified, etcetera, and then clear up what's in the middle. That's not that hard to to to do that. Now A lot of questions on how that translates to how you describe the farming and the farmland and how you might certify the farm itself. But from a product claim perspective, which is the world that we we live in and are trying to solve for, I don't think that's that that hard.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:55:51
And now I'll stop.

Kyle Krull - 00:56:00
Yeah, man. You know, I'm I'm torn about it. You know, my gut reaction when you sent me that photo, as you know, was words I can't say. On the podcast. So, you know, like, part of me would love to make that happen. I love the model you're talking about, but then, you know, I'll I'll play devil's advocate. Like, if anybody, if silk, to known, and I don't mean to diminish any of their regenerative efforts, I'm not super close to them. They could be as legit as they are or not. Don't know. Yeah. Happy to happy to make that disclaimer.

Kyle Krull - 00:56:23
If if anyone can just throw regenerative on the label and say, hey. This incentivizes regenerative practice, and it's really like you know, 1 0.1% of what they're actually doing Mhmm. Should they be able to make that claim? Mhmm. You know, and that I think is some of the big tension points in some of the the other bigger regenerative certifications, that's what they're worried about.

Kyle Krull - 00:56:42
And I very much understand that concern, but to your point, I very much agree that we need to figure out Whether it's a tiered system or not, how we provide that market validation for brands who are trying to do the right thing. Because, again, at the end of the day, And this kind of stems back to that Whole Foods issue we talked about before. If regenerative has to be organic and if people have to pay a premium for regenerative products, the impact the movement can make for both human and planetary health is going to be significantly diminished. And unless we can start to incentivize, arable land in mass to adopt these principles from practices, we are not going to mitigate and or reverse climate change. And we are not going to make a significant impact on improving human health. And if we're not doing those 2 things, what are we doing? You know?

Kyle Krull - 00:57:26
Like

Anthony Corsaro - 00:57:35
Yeah. We we have to solve for 3 things at once. At the very top, we have to solve for giving validation and supporting the absolute pinnacle of the work. So that it can continue and realize the value it deserves at the very top. In the middle, we have to incentivize and validate that there is constant progress happening to reach that pinnacle. And then at the very bottom, we have to make it achievable worthwhile and incentivize to get on the path and get to levels 23. Those are things you kind of have to solve separately, and I think your point is well taken around, like, what I what I just proposed, Saul, maybe, for messaging and organization, but it didn't solve for governance yet. So what is the governance structure to actually validate the claims or make sure that wherever you are on the pack and whatever you're saying is legit and has integrity and transparency and data. And I I feel like it's just crazy at this point that we have all these certifications.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:58:29
We have all these you know, blockchain and AI and soil soil health monitoring companies and all this stuff. And we still kinda haven't reached this this harmonization on on what that needs to look like, which I also empathize with because I think fundamentally regenerative is something we can't put into our westernized hypermetric hypermasculine binary paradigms, if it's truly about you know, living systems and supporting those to flourish, you know, to help flourish all life.

Kyle Krull - 00:59:04
Yeah, man. We'll set, that's the problem I think we all struggle with. You know? How do you tick the box that's not tickable? You know, and it's, again, a a very difficult problem to try to solve for, but, you know, there are a faint people and organizations doing that work, and we will continue to try to collaborate. And I really feel positive coming out of that OOC event about the types of conversations we had with the individuals. I mean, we were in a circle with ROC SCI. Unfortunately, I think we identified had left the room by that point. For some people from the the organic team and had a very, not contentious, I don't know where the right word is. A a meaty, a hearty, a meaningful conversation about, like Yeah.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:59:46
It was tense. But it wasn't contentious.

Kyle Krull - 00:59:49
Yeah. Yeah. I think that this well said, and it really felt to me, like, to your point, had we all had the time had been with the energy to stay in that room for even 1 full hour, let alone 4 or 5 with a break and a session, like, there could have been so much positivity that came out of that, it I don't know how we emulate that or or make that happen, but my god, it needs to happen.

Anthony Corsaro - 01:00:11
Yeah. And I think one thing you learn as you grow up in life is that Most of the time finding a solution in common ground with other human beings is about making sure the other person feels heard and seen. Number 1. And no one is actively working against that, but we're not actively creating opportunities for all us all to feel that way. Which is probably just step number 1, and I I did feel like that happened for the first time in a in person large group diverse stakeholder setting. That I've been a part of. Maybe it's happening other places that we're not aware of, but that was the first time I saw it.

Anthony Corsaro - 01:00:40
And, man, I just I gotta salute you because you know, to to just share kind of a little more normal story. We walked into that meeting and I kinda looked to count. I was like, hey, bro, let's let's take a backseat here. Like, there's some there's some big there's some big folks in this room that should probably supersede us in terms of, their opinion on this topic or or their contribution. And when we got into the small group, you know, Kyle shared a really passionate, vulnerable story of his own, and, it felt like really created the the launch pad for the unity and the cohesion that did exist in the conversation. So 1, good job for not listening to me. And, 2, I just appreciate your vulnerability and your action, man.

Anthony Corsaro - 01:01:20
And, you know, this, like, We don't know how it's gonna work out for us to even record podcasts and say all this openly. People might not like it. People might hate us for it. People might punish us for it. I don't know. You don't know.

Anthony Corsaro - 01:01:34
But it it it does continue to feel like it's our role in the space to try and say some of the things that maybe some others can't say or or or won't say. And I was definitely having some real hesitancy there that you kinda that you broke down in me, and I just appreciate you stepping up like that for you know, for this community because I think it's important.

Kyle Krull - 01:01:59
I super appreciate that, man. And I think you are also spot on that, like, we should let some of these other individuals lead this conversation But at the end of the day, I trust in my gut, and I really felt like our unique perspective wasn't really being voiced, and we provide a level of value to this community because of our unique perspective. And to your point about empathy, like, my goal, I I hope I delivered it well enough was to ensure that the various parties were heard before I tried to make my point and to open with some level of vulnerability to prove authenticity and hopefully allow because, you know, think vulnerability is one of the things that you can lead with vulnerability, and it will allow others to become more vulnerable. You know? So I'm glad it it seemed to work the way I had planned that it would and would love to be in the room and and share those moments with those individuals anytime. And, yeah, it felt it felt great to to be able to contribute in some capacity to that conversation. Hopefully, bring people closer together rather than further apart, I don't wanna demonize ourselves, but I often feel like we are sometimes the, known as those who, like, maybe create friction rather than Great.

Kyle Krull - 01:02:54
I got a center of, like, togetherness.

Anthony Corsaro - 01:03:10
You know?

Kyle Krull - 01:03:11
So I'm glad we're able to maybe reverse that in an in person setting a little bit.

Anthony Corsaro - 01:03:15
Yeah. I told Kyle, we were an expo that we need to put up, our picture from expo 2 years ago and put the bad boys bad boys, what you're gonna do. Put that audio behind it. But, yeah, man, just just to wrap, I think What we're trying to say at a high level is that it feels as though the people that are actually really aligned in doing the higher integrity work and all have the same intention, can't figure out a way how to actionize it to the level that it needs to for us to see the change we all wanna see in the world. And We are just deeply committed to doing whatever is in our power and whatever the community calls upon us to do to help facilitate that. And you know, I had the the great, great pleasure of going to White Oak Pastures for a little field visit when they were having Gay Brown come speak And it ended up being literally just, like, the 10 White Oak interns, Gabe Brown, and maybe, like, 2 other farmers this day. So I got a lot of really cool intimate time Well, Harris and Gabe Brown and and everyone else that was there.

Anthony Corsaro - 01:04:11
And I really remember from that from that day, something that I can't remember if one of them said it and the other one echoed it. But they said it a lot, and it was nature is more collaborative than competitive. And I would really just love all of us to take that mindset into the work moving forward because I really think that's the just being this little thing that we're all scared to lose control of or see grow up, but this humongous thing that we were all a massive, you know, part of really seeing flourish into this this big beautiful, positive change in the world.

Kyle Krull - 01:04:50
Yeah, man. I love that. And this is gonna seem totally random. But I'm I'm watching the 3 body problem right now on Netflix. Which I I've read the books before. Phenomenal reads. So far, the series seems to be doing pretty good, a decent job at at following the books. But there's there's a statement in the book. What is it?

Anthony Corsaro - 01:05:07
I've never heard of it. What is it?

Kyle Krull - 01:05:09
Oh, dude, 3 body. It's a mind blowing sci fi. Series written by a Chinese author. I can't I probably won't pronounce it incorrectly, so I'm not gonna try it, but it is an extraordinary read. It also made me feel like I I really needed a physics degree to truly appreciate all of that book.

Anthony Corsaro - 01:05:23
Yeah.

Kyle Krull - 01:05:23
Like, I probably only got 80%. But they talk about the book Silver Spring is, like, one of the big like catalysts for some of the things that take place within that that series. And there's a quote that they quote frequently, and it's that, nothing exists in nature alone. And it's it's just like, you know, from our regenerative brains, it's so easy for me to be like, yeah, monoculture is unnatural. Right? You know, so to your point about this, the the the nature statement that you made earlier, it that concept to me, I am really excited about 3 body because that's a massive Netflix series. It's gonna blow up, and those ideas can start to resonate individuals who may not even know what regenerative is yet, but I think that's really cool and important.

Kyle Krull - 01:05:55
There was another piece point I was gonna try to make here, but I completely, again, lost my train of thought. Unfortunately, oh, oh, I got it back. It was, you know, just just having this conversation with you, makes me realize the importance of, you know, a couple of themes just in in recapping the episode. Like, number 1, the importance of in person connection the importance of empathy and getting the right people in the room. Right? And maybe and I'm I've seen this out loud on the podcast for the first time. Like, maybe that is our job.

Kyle Krull - 01:06:28
You know, maybe we put on the event or invite the individuals and and and hold the space to have these conversations because that really feels like the linchpin. And if we can get everybody to agree on that 25, 30 percent, whatever it is, and start to take action, I think we can make waves together, and, that's an exciting opportunity and exciting concept. So we'll riff on that more offline. But I'm I'm super pumped about that idea, and I've never never been this energized by that concept until today.

Anthony Corsaro - 01:07:06
Yeah. Yeah. It's really cool and really exciting. And you and I have also reflected this week in some other conversations that it feels like the deeper you go into any of these problems, the more big and overwhelming and outside of yourself it becomes. And you lose agency and you lose motivation to make a positive change. And I think that's where the in person connection and where the community piece comes in because you re you remember it's not just you. And it it is all of us as individuals being relentless champions for this positive change that we wanna see, but also it's this deeper understanding that it's so much bigger than all of us. Individually, which

Kyle Krull - 01:07:44
Totally.

Anthony Corsaro - 01:07:46
It felt like there was this really cool bubbling of that that now needs to become this is, like, big, big boiling pot of of hot water here soon.

Kyle Krull - 01:07:59
Yeah. I totally agree. It was like, somebody pulled us off the burner too quick. You know? Yeah. So we gotta get back on that burner.

Anthony Corsaro - 01:08:05
Yeah. Cool, brother. Well, feels like this is a good time to wrap. I mean, I think my closing thoughts are just we are so grateful to do this work. We are so grateful to support this community. We're so grateful to all the people that we interact with and all the people, driving positive change in the world of regenerative CPG. And there's so much momentum, and there's so much hope and there's still so much work to be done. So, you know, let's embrace that vulnerability, let's embrace that empathy, and let's go, you know, get our lunch pills and and get some shit done.

Kyle Krull - 01:08:36
Totally agree. And I guess our answer to our final question is always, you know, how do we get to, 50% market share, for gender brands is is basically the last hour conversation we just had. So Mhmm. We'll close there.

Anthony Corsaro - 01:08:49
Yeah. Which had nothing to do with not nothing, but very little to do with tactical strategy and a lot more to do with the human soul in so many ways.

Kyle Krull - 01:08:58
You know? So they're great.

Anthony Corsaro - 01:08:59
It's interesting. It's interesting to flag that and just and just sit with that. You know? Yeah. Right on. Cool, brother. Appreciate you, man.

Kyle Krull - 01:09:07
Appreciate you. Thanks for listening to the audience. We appreciate you too.

Anthony Corsaro - 01:09:11
Yeah. Absolutely.

Kyle Krull - 01:09:12
Oh, shit. Actually, one one last highlight. Sorry. Sorry to continue this perpetually forever. One of my other favorite moments of expo west was people I did not know at all.

Anthony Corsaro - 01:09:23
Oh, yes. I'm so happy you brought this up.

Kyle Krull - 01:09:25
Yes. People we did not know in any capacity seeing us know, whether it's our faces or our name tags or whatever, just coming up and and shaking our hand and be like, hey. Love the podcast. Love the work you're doing. Love this episode. You know, listen to this. And it was so cool and stimulating to know that, like, complete strangers get value out of the conversations that we're having. And then it means something to other people.

Kyle Krull - 01:09:37
Like, that is so energizing. And, in the moment, it might be hard to continue those conversations at Expo West, but wanna give everybody who may or may not have done that like a shout out because it is it continues to drive us to do what we do. So thank you, for doing that.

Anthony Corsaro - 01:10:01
Yeah. If if anyone thinks we're in it for the money, it is not here, and we are most certainly not. So that is that is the fuel to the fire, for sure. And, you know, that that's what we're trying to do. That's the purpose that we have. So couldn't echo that more. And, yeah, man. Appreciate you and love all you listeners. So thank thanks y'all.

Anthony Corsaro - 01:10:13
For show notes, episode transcripts and more information on our guests and what we discuss in the show, check out our website, regen-brands.com. That is regen-brands.com. You can also find our regen recaps on the website. Regen recaps take less than 5 to read and cover all the key points of the full hour long conversations.

Anthony Corsaro - 01:10:35
You can check out our YouTube channel, Regen Brands Podcast, for all of our episodes with both video, and audio. The best way to support our work is to give us a 5 star rating on your favorite podcast platform, subscribe to future episodes, and share the show with your friends. Thanks for tuning in to The ReGen Brands Podcast brought to you by the Regen Coalition and Outlaw Ventures. We hope you learned something new in this episode and it empowers you to use your voice, your time, and your dollars to help us build a better and more regenerative food system. Love you guys.