#8 - David Bronner @ Dr. Bronner’s

Episode Recap:

ReGen Brands Recap #8 - David Bronner @ Dr. Bronner's

Episode Transcript:

Kyle Krull - 0:00:16
Welcome to the Region Brands podcast. This is a place for consumers, operators and investors to learn about the consumer brand supporting regenerative agriculture and how they're changing the world. This is just Kyle joined with my co-host, AC. Let's dive in.

Anthony Corsaro - 0:00:33
On this episode we have David Bronner, who is the CEO of Dr. Bronner's. Dr. Bronner's is supporting regenerative agriculture through their regenerative organic soaps and a diverse lineup of other personal care products, along with some newer product additions on the food side like their coconut oil and chocolate bars. In this episode we learn about the amazing origin story of Dr. Bronner's, which dates all the way back to 1858. How the company is leading the charge in the advocacy and creation of regenerative organic supply chains and their big plans to continue pushing the envelope of constructive capitalism in the future. David is just one of those guys where the interview is never quite long enough because there is so much interesting discussion to be had. Let's dive in. What's up everybody? Welcome back to another episode of the Regen Brands Podcast. We are fired up today to have David Bronner of the legendary Dr. Bronner here with us today. So welcome, David. Thanks for joining us.

David Bronner - 0:01:30
Yeah. Thanks for having me.

Kyle Krull - 0:01:32
Yeah, absolutely. David had a tumultuous morning, so we're really happy to have him chasing his dog around the trails in so Cal.

David Bronner - 0:01:38
Yeah, yeah. So yeah, I'm yeah. Just a little sweaty. You're still my dog got spooked and Oh my gosh, yeah.

Anthony Corsaro - 0:01:46
We love it, though we love it.

Kyle Krull - 0:01:47
We actually considered doing this podcast with all of us shirtless just so I so they can cool off. But you know, we decided we didn't want to, you know, get anybody cool. Well, you know. Just for those I don't know who doesn't know Dr. Bronner's's these days, but I run in pretty natural circles. But for those who don't know Dr. Bronner's's, give us like a brief overview of the company, what you sell, where you sell it, and things like that.

David Bronner - 0:02:12
Yeah, so our company was founded by my grandfather, Dr. Bronner's. He himself was a third generation master soap maker born into a German Jew. So making family, his grandfather began manufacturing. Soaps in the basement of the family home in Lauheim, a small Germantown in 1858, and then my great grandfather. So my grandfather's father and two uncles expanded the family enterprise quite a bit and got a factory in Halbran, another city in southern Germany. Bigger, bigger town manufacturing. Part of one of the manufacturing hearts in Germany. And grew the enterprise quite a bit and we were one of the largest manufacturers of liquid soap in Germany and made a bunch of other products and my granddad came up in the in the Guild system of the time you know Apprentice and became him master soap maker and but he's clashing with his his dad and uncles quite a bit coming up in the 20s in Germany he was very political he's very Zionist and. And just just a lot of like generational conflict. So he came over to the states in in 29 at the age of 21 and not not because of Hitler or Nazism that that he was around but it wasn't the the dimensions wasn't wasn't clear yet it was more just forge his own path in life and he.

David Bronner - 0:03:22
Was a consultant of the US SOAP industry. He helped launch products and build factories and and that kind of thing met and married my grandmother Paula and had three kids and and then in the same time was getting with the rise of Hitler increasingly desperate to get his family out, his two sisters got out. Lottie got out in 36, ended up in a kibbutz and then Palestine, now Israel. Lottie got out in 38, right before the close of borders, and came to the States and became a chemist and then a professor literature at UMass Boston, and then but his parents. It's like a lot of bourgeois Jews that thought they're going to ride the madness out. And then they stayed toast too late. The factory was very nice in 1940, and they were deported and killed some couple years later.

David Bronner - 0:04:09
You know and then in this time my grandmother who was in and out of the hospital, she was really sick and then and she died like 1944 so. So my grandad was going through this immense tragedy and of course you know in the world and and you know the whole world was and but his response to it was that was the basic launch on his his his passion of. His his insight he was a very mystical guy and he was pretty really tapped in and he and he realized it and the next Holocaust in in a nuclear armed world we're going to all perish and if we don't realize our transcendent unity across religious and ethnic divides and political divides that that you know we're all one or none. And that was his message. We're all children that was the same divine source you know and all the faith traditions when they're not making idols out of their beliefs and demonizing each other or or basically saying the same thing and. And and he tried to show that in in in when he went around the country basically lecturing on this peace plan and was selling these natural Castile soap recipes of his family on the side and and basically the way soaps we made for millennia. It's a very straightforward simple reaction no waste stream very about a degradable and we're kind of out of fashion in the post World War Two era with this is the advent of plastics and synthetic fertilizers and pesticides and you know just the the whole turn to petrochemical industry.

David Bronner - 0:05:28
You know better living through it through chemistry that was was the mantra and but he stayed true to these natural concealed soaps. He really he kind of brought the psychological vision. He saw early on what the the problems were with this the turn that industry was taking and so he stayed true to these simple biodegradable soaps and he was going around lecturing and and word got out about these really amazing soaps. He was selling on the side and people were coming to get the soaps and not necessarily staying as hear what he had to say. And that's when he started to put his message on the label the soap so our famous labels they got all the his his political religious philosophy and and it's genius. You know if you're in forget a magazine and you're in the bathroom you know he's got you and and so you know you got quite a following and then it was really with the 60s though when the like a generation you know the the this is Rachel Carlson wrote seventh spring and the advent of the environmental movement.

David Bronner - 0:06:26
And all the pesticides that had been killing the songbirds and that you know that was the the title of silent spring and you know and just the like the just disaster of human industry on the planet and agriculture being such a huge part of it and you know we're living through the 6th great extinction of that and you know so this generation that was seeking to live a you know simpler lifestyle more in harmony with the earth and you know and you know trust trying to stop this war machine and. You know and in just in that foment are just soap. Here's this awesome soap, you know it's about Gradable, it's concentrated, versatile, you can watch your hair, dog dishes by the side of the river and not worry about it, and has this groovy message of piece on it. So that's that's when the soaps really took off and really got traction with with the counterculture and then the first health food stores, you know the first organic products, you know our soaps were in there basically you know right, right from the getting one of the things you can do because still soaps is, is as an insecticide diluting water and it's a natural insecticide and.

Kyle Krull - 0:07:55
And I did not know that.

David Bronner - 0:07:56
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's, you know, part of organic rags. You know, soap is allowed and and. And you know like cannabis growers and a lot of people you just kind of do a dilute amount in spray bottle and also good for Ant control and but but yeah so you know my granddad he he went blind in the early 70s he was actually interned against his will in a in a quote UN quote mental health asylum in 48 in the kind of that McCarthy hysteria. I mean they they locked him up and he escaped after a few months but. Yeah. Shock treatment, you know, blamed his blindness on the shock treatment and stuff. Yeah. Crazy. Yeah. But I don't think he knew how busy his labels were getting and, you know, so now we got like you know 3000 words of six point font on you know and it just violates every rule of design, you know, but but it works. It stands out on the shelf and and and it's just an amazing product and.

David Bronner - 0:08:30
Yeah. And, you know, he founded the company as a notforprofit religious organization. You know, for him, you know, the message and the mission was everything and the soap is there to, you know, basically help sell the message. And the IRS disagreed with that tax exempt designation and he was in bankruptcy. And and my dad, for his part, you know, he, you know, my grand, I was not a great father and, you know, basically. Was put it parked his kids in a series of foster homes though well he went around the country and would check in on him once in a while but and financially supported him but you know my you know my dad was basically associated the whole mission more or less with bailing as a father and but he by my dad went to the Navy at the age of 17 and he was eight years enlisted chief Petty Officer the high achieved the highest enlisted rank.

David Bronner - 0:09:21
Came out and went to work with my granddad and and it was, you know it was a fraud. And you know what man my granddad was just doing mega trauma and you know doing what you're doing and on fire with his passion. And my dad went to work with my my granddad in LA so my granddad was in LA at the time and was running out of reactor at a chemical specialty firm and my dad would go make the soap on the weekends and. When my granddad came down here to North County San Diego to Escondido, which we moved to Vista, a couple of towns over about five years ago, my dad stayed up in LA and so and became head of that, that factory, that family operation and and so he became head of operations there. So I actually grew up working in that company. OK. My dad and my dad, do you remember?

Kyle Krull - 0:10:36
Your first time like working in the factory and making soap, yeah?

David Bronner - 0:10:40
Yeah, I mean it's all kind of a blur, but I mean it was, but it was like honestly the soap was kind of minor. It was more like my dad developed firefighting foam for structure and forest fires. So when you see like an air drop of foam hitting a forest, like my dad developed of all things WD-881 for then Monsanto's firefighting division. So I grew up like yeah, in the 80s room, you know, WD and we we just ripping out huge amounts of this firefighting foam concentrate. And it's not the longterm like they're they're really bad gnarly stuff. It's a longterm, what do you call them? Retardants. And that's that's really gnarly stuff. But the, the foam concentrate is actually biodegradable and and and and. OK and he actually developed a version for Hollywood that me and my brother grew up like blasting foam on trees and and movie sets and like outputs like mutual set. You know stuff.

David Bronner - 0:11:11
My experience growing up was more on with my dad and on on the foam and and and and monsano like they you know in the late 80s they like spun off everything and became the SAG chemical you know whatever giant but but that product is still in the market so. So I grew up blasting foam and really I didn't understand my granddad growing up you know my dad you know for you know they had a difficult relationship they didn't really really kind of work through it till later in life and. Um, and, you know, when I did see my granddad, he was just coming off the mountaintop, you know, 24/7. And then it was like really important for him that we understood that we must unite the spaceship where we're all one or done, you know? And, you know, we're just, you know, OK, you know, and like, and, you know, and we're, you know, he was blind. So, you know, supposedly we had memorized the labels. So fortunately, you know, he's like, give me the 13th, you know, and we could pick up the bottle, rattle it off, you know, like, wow, you know.

Kyle Krull - 0:12:34
Wild.

David Bronner - 0:12:35
Yeah, yeah. And it wasn't really till, you know, and, and I guess, you know, they give me the full story here. But the, you know, I was in college, I started, you know, I was, you know, playing sports and and, you know, getting drunk in the bars in the weekends and, you know, just doing that. But got introduced to cannabis with my, my roommates and had, you know, just kind of realized pretty quick, like, wow, you know, cannabis is way better. It's like. Really. More awesome music's great. You know, our conversation like, you know why? What, what rational reason is there that that this is illegal and alcohol is it, which is far more automatic. You know, I just started really waking me up to this dimension, and it was. I was in Amsterdam after college on a euro pass, and I'd already had some psychedelic experiences, but.

David Bronner - 0:13:02
That's where I just had really got blown open on a really deep level. And my heart and mind is blown open to the the love and light at the heart of existence. And and you know somehow in the midst of the absurdity of life and the suffering that that's the truth and that's our transcendent ground. And then my guy that was 100% right that that all the you know at their best all the faith traditions are pointing at that source and the divine's going to show up and whatever form you're ready for and. And, you know, like, you know, like, wow, you know, you know, really embraced my granddad or understood him and dedicated my life to ending the drug war and integrating our our plant medicine allies and psychedelic allies. And so that was one part of it. So I came into the, you know, and it wasn't like a straight line back to the company. I did a few other things, but eventually told my dad I was ready to come in.

David Bronner - 0:13:54
You know, just realizing. Wow, what a opportunity. And my dad and mom and uncle had been running the show in the 90s, like both his own business, the phone business and then also the soap business. You know, let him know. And shortly before he was diagnosed with stage four lung cancer. Yeah, no, but. But it was, you know, the, the, the. Yeah, it was. It was brutal, but also fortunate that I'd made that decision.

David Bronner - 0:14:20
Before, you know, it wasn't something they had to do that didn't really want to do right, you know, kind of work through it all. And so we had an amazing year together and downloading the ropes of life and business and. And, yeah, so and yeah, and and shortly before he died, he oversaw the donation of land, like 1000 acres of land in East San Diego County. That was like a third of our worth. Like we had the business and we had this land. From you know my my second grandmother got everything. I was fine but we had all these estate taxes and all the advisors were telling and and I I should say that my dad had when my granddad was in bankruptcy paying all these back taxes. That's when my dad and mom and Uncle Ralph stepped in and kind of righted the ship and exited as a for profit on sound financial footing and.

David Bronner - 0:15:16
But, you know, we had this nonprofit mission at the heart of us and, you know, and then my dad really set the example shortly before he died by donating this land to the boys and Girls Club of San Diego. And basically in a, in a way like thanking his mentors. Like, you know, what were the mentors that, you know, helped him become the man, man he became because he was like amazing. And it was like these mentors in these youth programs of his his time and. So it was this beautiful gift and and then also an example to me, my brother my brother Mike Bronner company president that that everything we don't need for the business we're going to give to charity and causes that we believe in you know and just really set that example. And then one of the first activist things I did as I stepped up pretty young, I was like 2025. So after a year we put hempseed oil in 99 into the soap.

David Bronner - 0:16:12
And this will, you know finally kind of bring us all home here. But you know, I didn't know. I totally appreciated my granddad vision but and also honored my dad. But hemp was this perfect example. It was at the Nexus of drug policy reform. It was like the most ridiculous example, this out of control drug war that was scheduling a non drug agricultural crop as a schedule and substance. So it was an opportunity really engaged on this drug war machine.

David Bronner - 0:16:41
Start opening up cultural space for cannabis and then also it was a sustain, it was at the next of sustainable agriculture. I was starting to really get excited about that. And here it grows like a weed. Isn't there a lot of herbicide and inputs. You know, it's like, you know, really starting to think about that and and we got in this huge fight with DEA and that we ultimately won. But HAMP was really at the foundation. So Fast forward today it was like kind of had the, the genesis of the seed of these two passions of drug policy reform, which we've been rocking and it's been really helping lead this renaissance. So or so a lot of the different organizations and campaigns that are, you know, integrating these allies and ending prohibition, bringing more rationality to the conversation and and helping, you know like reframing.

David Bronner - 0:17:33
The, the conversation, these are healing medicines that can really help people on a deep level and connect us to each other and to nature. And. And then the other side of that was, you know, realizing that hemp's great and it's a symbol of. It was a symbol of regenerative agriculture, but was all too often not grown regeneratively. And it was more a symbol of a of a management approach. Not not a it's not the crop in itself. It's all crops can be.

David Bronner - 0:18:00
Growing in in a regenerative or degenerative way and that's when we really started to think about it and and think about our own supply chains and realizing like you know it's really cool that we're based on natural oils primarily coconut, olive and HAMP and palm and and you know various essential oils you know versus all these synthetic detergents like most of our competition was and that's awesome and the grant had done great with with that but. You know just realizing we're just buying from brokers, we have no visibility and other growing conditions that these you know materials are being grown under and you know the the environmental or social conditions and so that's what really launched our adventure. So that would be in the early 2000s. So really wanting inspired by the Fair Trade movement on one side, organic on the other like we need to wanna, I'll say like first we want organic. And then in 2003 we were certified. So but then kind of quickly realized that well, you know, we're still buying from brokers. We're not in a direct relationship with our farming communities. We don't know exactly what's going on there. You know, we don't know if there's kids picking these coconuts, you know, like that. That was still not, you know, clear to us. So that's when we embarked on, OK, we're going to transition our supply chains to farming communities and establish direct trading relationships where we know.

David Bronner - 0:19:21
You know that the farmers are taking care of their land in the right way and their people in the right way.

Kyle Krull - 0:19:55
And you said this is like mid early 2000s at this stage?

David Bronner - 0:19:58
Yeah, like, yeah, I think we're about 2004, 2005 is when we made the commitment. I mean obviously it took a longer time to like complete it, but that was I think when we made, made the commitment right around there and then because I remember because the tsunami, when the tsunami hit Sri Lanka in 2004. One of our aces Garrel lasson. He's now our VP of Special OPS and wrote a book called Dr. Bronner's. What is it? Honor that label. Yeah, honor that label. Dr. Bronner's's journey to a clean green supply chain. So he was he came to us on the hemp fight. So a lot of the our leadership came together to to beat back the DEA and and you know allow the market for for him to flourish and he had he was this German American PhD environmental engineering Guy who.

David Bronner - 0:20:17
Got interested in half fiber as a replacement for synthetic fibers and but what had been working with coconut fiber and have all these networks already in Sri Lanka around coconut and then he formed his relief organization kind of like a microloan thing before that was a thing and and and was you know helping people rebuild fishing boats and sewing shops and stuff like that. And I was like you know Garrel we've got this commitment now to go fair trade and and regenerative and and being direct relationship. You've got all these relationships with the with the coconut industry here you know maybe there's a place we can set up an operation. So that was the 1st and and it was just like really difficult but amazing journey and it's all chronicled in the book but you know how to you know couple false starts but eventually found the right local partners. Gordon and Sonali if yeah.

Kyle Krull - 0:21:40
Did you end up looking like 1 ingredient at a time or did you try to switch the entire supply chain over at the same time? Like what did that transition look like?

David Bronner - 0:21:48
Yeah, yeah. Right on. It was. So the first thing was to do an audit like, you know, is there any existing projects in the world for our ingredients? So there was one and it was Canon Fair trade in Palestine, in the West Bank producing olive oil. And so I was like, oh, shit, you know, and this is like, you know, during, you know, you know, like, yeah, I remember talking to Adam, our Jewish, now director of social action in DC yeah. You know, I'm like, wow, this is going to be interesting. And. And, you know, and he was like, well, you know, you got to have some from the Israeli side. And I'm like well, OK, you know, swan and, but I mean, the point here is like we got a. You know because I got family in Israel and stuff but I mean we hate the occupation and and and a lot of Israeli policy but very support much support Israel within the you know 68 borders and so yeah so. So anyway so we checked out Canon Fair trade, it's a beautiful operation operating in in the West Bank with with like 1000 Palestinian farmers farming in very difficult conditions under the occupation you know trying to bring their oil to market.

David Bronner - 0:22:33
And it was initially not organic or regenerate, it was more just kind of under more than fair trade kind of frame. But when we entered a picture, we were because we had to break the fair. Like the Fair Trade Program was ridiculous. Like it was like we were ready to go like we talked to like it was you know the fair labeling organization. Trans Fair was their certifier and we said like we're ready to go like we've got supply chains like we're ready to, you know, certify and they're like. Oh, well that's, that's not how this works. We have a like they had the like at the time build a custom standard for each and every agricultural commodity. But I was like, you know, wow, what's wrong with this? This is ridiculous. And so actually a leading organic certifier, it was actually kind of grew out of the biodynamic movement. It was a Swiss based one called IMO.

David Bronner - 0:23:29
They kind of and they were very much about soil health and for them like this, you know a lot of the fair trade was about boosting yields and incomes through regenerative techniques and and we really liked them and then they developed a social side of what they were already doing. And so it's so they were like kind of the first like integrated regenerative organic Fair trade certification and we and we went in and partnered with Canon. So Kanan was first and and worked with them and a lot of their farmers were basically or you know organic by default anyway. And and so we we certified then and we you know work you know started working with Nassar, Nassar, Abu Fara to develop composting compost programs and fertility programs and you know just some some good regenerative stuff. And and then on the Israeli side we identified a Jewish family farm that was super rad and a. Arab Christian or Palestinian Christian project. That was really rad. And so 90% of our olive oil comes from the West Bank, from Muslim farmers, made through Kanan, and then 10% comes from the Israeli side, half from a Jewish town front that happens to be related just we 5 generations ago. Wow. Yeah, crazy. Yeah. Just totally synchronistic.

David Bronner - 0:24:46
And then and then Christian project. So we've got Muslim, Christian, Jewish, olive oil and our soap and it's really rad. Yeah. So each of each ingredient had its own journey, you know, each of our major ones and took, you know, had had its own adventure. How?

Anthony Corsaro - 0:25:29
Yeah, David, how has that guided? Like product development, road map. And so one thing for the audience, the, the historical story that David gave us is online and it is awesome. There's pictures, there's great text. So check that out, takes literally 5 minutes. It's super dope. But you know, you guys are doing coconut oil now. You guys are doing soaps, but you're doing toothpaste, you're doing lip balm, you're doing all these things. And in the historical timeline, it kind of talks about some of that product development. But I'm assuming as you brought all these supply chains, direct trade or fair trade or inhouse, you know, it kind of guided where y'all went from a product development. Standpoint. So can you talk us through that arc and how that's developed over time?

David Bronner - 0:26:02
Yeah. So, yeah. And so the major slide chains were coconut, palm, olive and then mint. And then I'll just briefly on Palm and that's a very controversial 1. Is, you know, generally grown in these, you know, as bad as can be corporate plantations and in Indonesia and Borneo, the ripping up rainforest and wetlands and oxidizing huge amounts of carbon to the atmosphere and disrupting farming communities. And just everything that's wrong with industrial agriculture is like, you know, pretty much the worst with with palm. But what this project in Ghana was a preexisting nonprofit. It was a little, it wasn't being that. Well run but but the Genesis was that Palm actually originates from West Africa and and there's these there are these farmers that were you know growing in and trying to grow in a in a good way and and but we partnered in A and really helped just you know we brought running a lot of different agronomists and experts and really helped boost just through a fertility compost program and just some good regenerative techniques and ultimately. Intercropping, complementary tree crops. So cocoa and banana and then groundwater Kosovo and and doing these dynamic act forestry systems or multistrada reduce love it. Yeah. Anyways, multistrada ag forestry you know and cocoa's another very problematic crops showing how you can take two very problematic crops and and and grow them in a very regenerative system where you're boosting yields and incomes and in sequestering carbon and and minimizing weed. Impressed.

David Bronner - 0:27:17
Pest pressure and and so then simultaneous with that we were getting in a big fight with the with with the personal care industry over organic Sanders because in personal care organic was just being used on the most synthetic schlock products in in the game was people would just basically take a synthetic petrochemical formulation put like a tea bag of organic herbs in their production batch water. And then load up the front of their ingredient, act with you know organic extract the lavender and calendula, you know blah, blah, blah. Right. And then and then it'd be all the same crap in in that actually drove their product. You know nothing about it was was organic or anything. So we were on a mission. I mean we tried in good faith to to work out a standard that would you know be you know tailored to the personal care and and worked with everybody. But then we got a standard and then everyone just kind of like OK well whatever.

David Bronner - 0:28:15
And you know, just didn't bother to certify to it. And so at that point we started like OK, well we have no choice. We're going to litigate. This is completely deceptive. And and as part of that also we're going to, we're going to also prove because part of what everyone's saying is like oh, you can't do this to the organic regs. You can't produce personal care to a program designed for food. And and we were saying, well, no man, like.

David Bronner - 0:28:43
Like our skin care should be certified to the food standard. Like your old skin is your largest organ. Your what you put on your skin is going in your body. You should not be putting all this toxic crap and you can absolutely produce lip balms and lotions and shaving gels and you know personal care that conforms to this food standard. And and so that was the real genesis for us to start launching and get into like and so that was like 2008 maybe was when we actually launched. You know that the first suite of non soap you know we were just liquid and bar soap forever but but then we launched kind of just to make a point to prove a point that we can make quality personal care in a lot of different categories and conform to the restrictions of the of the food program and and we were totally open to make allowances. I mean that's what we worked on like we made you know we did and there in it and there is a standard out there called the three O 5 standard which.

David Bronner - 0:29:36
We actually are toothpaste, for example. It's like there's a couple ingredients that aren't allowed in the food that are allowed in that standard. So that's you know and it's a good standard, you know and in we're we're psyched to see companies certified of that. But but by and large our product line is certified to the food standard. And and we're in this like high profile litigation and and then eventually Whole Foods you know because it was just a disaster obviously for for the trade you know right you know they they finally like implemented they said okay your organic claim is either meet three O 5 or or the NOP or and then or or you're off you know and or take it off and and and so they you know that was like 2010 or something. So that, but that was you know and that was awesome and but I'm really getting into all these other products initially was kind of an activist, you know, just to preserve the integrity of the program that is love that you know consistently under assault and you know there's obviously problems with you know a lot of things in corporate interest trying to.

David Bronner - 0:30:52
Bend and.

Kyle Krull - 0:31:13
Whatever it feels like, Doctor Brunner's kind of has this rebellious streak in, like, a positive rebellion sort of a way and sort of like, you know, stick it to the man by making cleaner products and proving that it's possible. And, you know, at least since I've been in the national food industry since 2012 and I've seen the proliferation of healthy body care since then, you know, and it sounds to me like if Doctor Brunner's helped to lead the way to prove that it's possible to prove. The concept within the channel to start to take market share and then that ascribes, you know, for back of a letter from copycats or sorry for back of a better term. But that helps to get everybody more involved in the more competition there is within that subset of like real healthy, you know, care, beauty care, body care, the better it is, right. So that's that's really cool that you guys are sort of like flipping the bird in a positive way.

David Bronner - 0:32:02
Yeah, I'm right on and thank you and and I would say like unfortunately. I mean I'll shout out some of the cleaner brands like a Lafayette and Badger and the Lita and but there's not a lot of them. And you know fortunately the others at least aren't like making organic you know misleading organic claims. But we even in a natural channel like you'll see so like liquid soap, like FDA actually regulates the term and bar soap kind of. So a bar soap needs to at least be 50% real soap. You can have all kinds of other crap in it, but it has to be at least 50% to call itself soap in the liquid soap. It doesn't have to have any soap and to be called liquid soap, so.

Anthony Corsaro - 0:32:45
It doesn't make any sense.

David Bronner - 0:32:47
Yeah. And so Even so most quote UN quote liquid soap even in the natural health is like a detergent synthetic detergent driven products and. It's, it's it's an yeah. So I don't, I don't want to like celebrate the whole aisle and just like still exercise discriminate. I mean there are really good brands there but you know you got to like check the labels and ingredients and all that but yeah thank you. And and yeah I mean that's that's you know I mean I think my granite founded the company as a you know as a how do you say an activist engine? Yeah. Yeah you know and that's it. I mean it's like we're we exist to drive.

David Bronner - 0:32:55
Progressive social and environmental change and and we we formalize that with a salary cap. So. So we capped our executive compensation at five times for those paid position and that was just because I could kind of see where things were going and just where they want and also seeing our personal behavior like getting the next better car, house, whatever you know and it's like OK everything within the five times like that. It's cool to do whatever you want but everything above it like that's not you know that's going to go to the causes and. Yeah, that's really cool.

Kyle Krull - 0:33:58
You mentioned the labels and certifications. Yeah. Curious to get your take on, you know, I know that regenerative organic certified is like a big initiative for both you personally and for Bronner. So walk us through, you know, why did you never want to see like why does the world need that certification? And then from there we can kind of expand and talk a little bit more about what it means and like that.

David Bronner - 0:34:18
Yeah, I think it's kind of a. How do you say addressing problems on either side of the equation like so with regenerative that anyway we've had this discussion that obviously it's everyone's jumping on the bandwagon and defining it however which way they want and for us it's you know, if you're using synthetic fertility and pesticides like that's you know especially the synthetic fertility. And nitrogen, which is such a, you know, the number one greenhouse gas contributor like when we talk about the promise regenerative AG has for climate change and addressing it like you know that's a contradiction like if you're if you're relying on synthetic nitrogen fertility. And so. So that was on the one hand like that we really wanted regenerative to have that dimension. And then on the organic side things were going sideways fast and in that. You know like there was a the animal welfare there was this actually pretty decent elevation of animal welfare standards. They've gotten torpedoed in Congress by the different corporate interests. So you know the hydroponics you know soil is you know they're just just things are starting to be not awesome on the organic side. So there was an opportunity here to basically kind of put a vesting you know the the high and trying the high bar standards like.

David Bronner - 0:35:18
What good organic farmers were already doing, basically. But, you know, all too often corporate farms were just doing input substitution just, OK, we can't use synthetic nitrogen, OK, we'll just use capable maneuvers, you know, like, not not actually building fertility through regenerative means on their farms and doing things as they should be. And that the organic regs are kind of about mostly about what you shouldn't do, but not all you should do. And so there's an opportunity to really enshrine like, you know. You know, perimeter planting, plantings of for pollinators and and then predator insects and cover crops and rotational grazing and all the things you should be doing in a good you know organic, such regenerative system. You know rather than just what you shouldn't do. You know compost all that you know how. How do you build on farm fertility and not just rely on off farm input?

David Bronner - 0:36:15
And then yeah, I mean that was, I mean that was the genesis. Oh and then of course like in in Jeff at Roedale, Jeff Moyer has a line like don't it's not enough just to treat the earth rooms with respect and that the organic movement back when had you know worker rights and you know that was part of the the movement but that got lost. So it's not like you know the migrant labor workforce that's picking lettuce for example also and gets some kind of better deal on the organic farm versus the conventional farm. You know it's the same you know generally exploited labor and and so it was about bringing in the the you know labor criteria worker criteria and and then animal welfare just really enshrining pasture based you know true pasture based animal welfare criteria that's you know also of course very good for the soil and. You know, I'm just with a vision like you're saying like how do we get to 20, you know, how do we shift agriculture globally? You know, how do we get, we got to get all these animals out of their cages, out of these factory farms, out of these feed lots that are being fed monoculture deserts of GML, soy and corn and, you know, integrate them back on the land and in these, you know, where the where their manure is not a problem. It's just part of the fertility cycle. And yeah, and I'm, you know, I became vegan when I was in Amsterdam. Like I was part of like my big awareness and.

David Bronner - 0:37:39
Will be till the day I die. But went on a deep, you know adventure in the, you know, in the last 10 years as part of all this too to really you know really understand and and and appreciate that in fact especially ruminants can be integrated in a regenerative system and just how that can work and you know went to Gate Brown's farm and you know to spend a lot of time you know Rodell just you know understanding how. Ruminants can really integrate in in a cropping system and and be part of it, you know and just like there's a sustainable balance of animal and plant life and wild ecosystem, there can be in a farming ecosystem. But we just need to really drastically reduce the population overall and integrate in a sustainable balance. And then chickens and and monogastrics and pigs, I mean they're, I mean they can be too. I mean historically they were on the farm to eat everything that.

David Bronner - 0:38:36
Wasn't I don't you know, they could just consume and convert? Otherwise on inedible you know calories and and proteins inedible.

Kyle Krull - 0:39:13
Right. So even rocks. As we learned on our previous podcast, chickens Eat rocks. Yeah, yeah, it's a grind grain. Who knew? It's.

Anthony Corsaro - 0:39:20
Crazy.

David Bronner - 0:39:22
Right on, yeah. So I mean there's a regenerative logic to to to all this and and so, but yeah, it's just about like moving. But, but generally it's just a disaster, right? I mean, chickens are in these batteries, they smell OK batteries. So they spend, they don't waste any energy on moving around and it's just all like to to weight gain. And then they're meeting these short, horrible lives and the best day of their life is when they're killed, basically. And yeah. So it's like, yeah, just, you know, how do we shift this and now.

Anthony Corsaro - 0:39:51
22 part question for you, David. What's been the hardest part and Elizabeth's kicking ass and the the rock certification is is flying. So she's doing a great job. But what's been the hardest part of getting that certification launched and rolling and then in Dr. Bronner's supply chain, what's been the hardest commodity to do? Regenerative. Organic.

David Bronner - 0:40:08
Yeah, well we, we launched our pilot in the in the in the pandemic. You know, just freaking nuts. So and and. Yeah, you know that was definitely very difficult, but I think we're really starting to get some real traction now. I mean we've got you know just a suite of incredible farms and brands starting to certify. And so I think we're really starting to hit critical mass. I think probably 24 is when we'll have like that kind of sweet spot. I mean even for ourselves like we're not all Rock certified yet like we're we're still in in process and. But we we anticipate Q on a 24 US and you know just like a kind of critical mass will we can you know come into market and and you know start doing you know really appreciate when you guys are doing you know land caps and stuff and just you know inviting in whoever's got regenerative organic certified products like come in and you know hopefully that's kettle on fire and and we're you know just rocking and really partnering with you know Whole Foods and and another retail partners to to really educate consumers.

David Bronner - 0:40:48
And yeah, you know, just let's see, I mean it's, I mean fortunately for us because we were both organic and fair trade certified and we were basically we're doing regenerative before that was a thing. Yeah, it's it's been real you know more straightforward but we're also you know we're we were at a lot of farms. So it's a process and let's see what what's been the most difficult. Well, I mean just we've outstripped just our growth like we've just kind of outstripped our own dedicated supplies on the lower the lower oil. So like we just need yeah there's there's basically a couple promising candidates out there to be able to kind of fill in the the coconut and and palm kernel oil right to get us all to rock. But yeah it's like you know doing the due diligence and making sure they're you know the real deal and.

David Bronner - 0:41:45
We have one partner that we think is fits the bill and we're kind of working with them right now, but.

Kyle Krull - 0:42:22
That's incredible and I know like from an innovation standpoint, 2 of the more recent innovation pieces like the the Rock certified Coconut oil and the magic bars, the chocolate bars are very much like focused on innovation and incorporating regenerative into future like verticals. I'm curious, are there any new products that we might see from Dr. Brothers in the future that are specifically designed to use more regenerative products or to like bolster that supply chain?

David Bronner - 0:42:50
Yeah, I mean the chocolate was you know, pretty much grown was, it's a perfect example of that. I mean we were helping our farmers sell their cocoa, you know, W African, especially Ganan Coco's, you know, top quality and we were helping them sell to European chocolate tiers and. Just kind of got to know that and got to know some of the really good chocolate tears and and just kind of realized like wow you know there's real opportunity here to tell their genitive story through a chocolate bar and and especially this dynamic act forestry which you know like you know there's I think Hershey's and very you know they're being sued right now for just the the horrible social conditions and their supply chains and and this is this you know we're showing how two of the world's. Most problematic crops can go together in this really cool way and to the benefit of people in the land and animals and. And yeah, so that was, you know, so chocolate is, you know, but that unfortunately turned out to be a little bit more of a difficult lift than we thought. I mean, it's the best chocolate. And we got like gone on to tea and we got like some incredible glowing reviews, but just, you know, we thought like, wow, this is going to be a home run, but, you know, it's doing okay, but. We're realized.

Anthony Corsaro - 0:44:03
Crowded channel?

David Bronner - 0:44:04
What's that?

Anthony Corsaro - 0:44:05
Crowded channel?

David Bronner - 0:44:06
Crowded channel and it's just like if you do the thought experiment of like you know what you know what soap or shampoo company did you were you thinking that yeah they can make a real great chocolate and you know like Theresa like you know who do you think is it you know is it here is it you know Lily is who's going to make good soap you know you know what I mean it's like there's a we need to like break and and we just we're so we're wrapping up a huge demo program to just. Get the chocolate in people's mouths and getting the third party, you know, the bon appetit, you know, they loved it. So we're just going to really leverage that, you know, to kind of overcome that.

Kyle Krull - 0:44:38
Yeah, I will say so. I'm. I'm a big chocolate fan. I know Anthony is. It's talked about on the previous podcast. Yeah, well, I actually just tried the magic bar for the first time recently. I had the whole hazelnut one and I was blown away. I I thought it was fantastic. I just bought. I think it's the salted almond butter one is in my fridge, right?

David Bronner - 0:44:54
Now I'll.

Kyle Krull - 0:44:55
Probably eat it tonight in honor of this podcast. But yeah, it is truly like phenomenal chocolate and I typically look for like single origin. I pay a lot of money for chocolate because I like to support the right people and it surpassed my expectations. It is really high quality.

David Bronner - 0:45:09
Yeah. Right on. Thank you. And we've got a peppermint cream skew coming out. Like obviously we're known for peppermint and that's going to drop and it's nice. Wow, amazing.

Kyle Krull - 0:45:18
I know you mentioned that Mint was a big part of the regenerative story. Is that part of why you're choosing to make that skew or is it just because you wanted to, you know, throw a curveball and go peppermint?

David Bronner - 0:45:27
No, no, no it's like yeah definitely I mean in a way we should have launched with it but but but yeah but anyways but it's you know you're like okay well you know let's get try you know let's get like the basic you know basic business going and then and then we'll drop it in and but yeah absolutely we have a really great story to tell around mint it's in in Uttar Pradesh in north India. It's like 1000 farmers farming regeneratively they're. Doing a mint lentil rice rotation and then you know and then some other different herbs and and and stuff and we're helping them market and then like a massive compost out. I mean the the soils there are like horrible I mean it's like 0% carbon and and you know just some real real not great but but it's a real opportunity to really show over the years like we've as you know you do all these regenerative practices and like that's a big part is measuring the impact. Is you know just being able to document. So it'll be exciting to show overtime like in all our projects you know like we know what what is requirement sequestration and you know all the all the benefits and and you know water holding capacity of the soils and all this kind of stuff that.

Kyle Krull - 0:46:42
So as you start to work with these suppliers, are you are you starting with like a baseline sample like you're measuring the Psalm and the water infiltration rate and things like that and then you get to start like showing that overtime that curve, yeah.

David Bronner - 0:46:53
Yeah, yeah. So hopefully we get a 5 or 10 years, we're able to, you know, because always there's going to be the variations year to year, but hopefully, you know, we'll, you know, be able to show after 5-10 years of good data collection, you know, real, you know, just really show it. And yeah, that that project in India, I mean, there's compost involved in all our farmer projects, but that that one's got the most. I mean there's like a mega compost operation going. So it'll be really exciting to see and it's probably starting from the worst starting point. So it's going to be interesting to see the results of that overtime. Awesome. Yeah. Yeah. And then of course, Peppermint. I mean, I mean, it's like, you know, everyone knows it's for peppermint. So. Yeah, yeah.

Kyle Krull - 0:47:36
Right. No, I can't wait to see that story. It's going to be really cool. I love, you know, biggest little farm was like my gateway drug into the bag and I was so moving to see what they're able to accomplish with that like completely degraded piece of land, what they're able to turn that into using these farming practices. So to be able to see that at the global scale and all these different countries that you're working with is going to be really, really impactful.

David Bronner - 0:47:59
Yeah. You know, that's, I mean, yeah, I mean that's the vision we all share here, right, is like how do we transform agriculture from this disaster to these like thriving, vibrant, incredible farms and farming ecosystems. And I mean energy you feel when you're on, you know, apricot lane or just any of these farms, it's just incredible. And I remember David Vetter. He was one of our key partners in regenerative organic and he's got this beautiful incredible farm. He hasn't brought any off farm fertility in for 30 years. You know, this is incredible example of regenerative organic agriculture and biodynamics and and you know doing this mixed, you know, livestock and cropping, you know, he's just surrounded by this monoculture desert of chemo, corn and soy and you can just see. You know, it's all this bare ground with all these huge weeds, all these glyphosate resistant weeds just everywhere. And you know, and you just see, and I remember there was like a huge rain event and just like all the topso being washed away all around him, but he's just like boom. Just like just, you know, no problems on his farm and yeah.

David Bronner - 0:48:46
Yeah, yeah.

Anthony Corsaro - 0:49:06
He's a great example. We've had Christy from Quinn on to talk about him. He's he's awesome. And you know I love David that you guys are just going after like you guys are like Dragon Slayers, right? It's like there's a lot of there's a lot of low hanging fruit in region and we salute all those people and what they're doing is great because we got to move the needle incrementally some places and drastically in other places and do them all at the same time. But I mean you guys are slaying some real Dragons, so kudos to y'all and it's it's just great for the movement. We appreciate it.

David Bronner - 0:49:33
No right on and and just on that and just totally appreciate the the yeah that's hoppa who is yeah went went went this morning. Yeah yeah you know totally right. I mean we're all on a path and and yeah we're you know we've got regenerative organic as a North star and but you know all the regenerative practices and you know just you know as people. Build that off on farm fertility and can like sort of wean off the synthetic fertility and and and inputs. And so I you know I think there is you know eventually it would be great to see and I know you guys are working on it you know just seeing like an on ramp you know like the smooth on ramp from the conventional side into the regenerative organic you know kind of feeding from either organic or regenerative side in the regenerative organic and. Yeah. What we don't like to see is you know the how that chemical giants are like coopting right and they're like yeah the the blast glyphosate and and and your no till system and and that's regenerative you know. Yeah right and and that you know and and that kind of that's it and and there's so much more in in a regenerative farm and so yeah just making sure it's real and and and when people are are starting wherever they are that they're moving and yeah.

Anthony Corsaro - 0:50:57
For sure.

David Bronner - 0:50:58
Right on. Yeah. Well, you know, thank you guys for for rocking and and you know just holding the regenerative torch and keeping it real and absolutely what.

Anthony Corsaro - 0:51:11
What is the regenerative future look like for Dr. Bronner's's David?

David Bronner - 0:51:17
Yeah, I mean, I guess, you know, just continuing the certify, I mean hopefully we'll be 100% like all of our raw materials by end of 24. And yeah, I mean we'll see. We'll see what kind of products organically flow out of it. You know, I mean that, I mean that's it. I mean I think as we all do the work and can create, you know, just inspire more and more farms and it just becomes easier, you know, in a way like we're pioneers kind of doing a lot of stuff, but then like like our farming projects, they don't sell just to us, right, they sell to other people and they don't have to kind of do all the craziness of the heavy lift. And just as like more and more supply comes online, it just becomes easier for brands to do the right thing and source. And you know I mean I know you guys are like you know like pioneers, you got to get in there with the farms and then you know, it's like a lot of but hopefully this, you know, we get through this initial real heavy lift and then it's just easy and easier for companies and brands and consumers to plug in. And so yeah, we just hope to be part of like just a huge ecosystem of regenerative and organic and.

Anthony Corsaro - 0:52:23
Well, you you might have just answered the last question with with what you just said, but we asked everybody this question and I think you're going right into it which is what do we have to do, you know to have regen brands have 20, have excuse me, 50% market share by 2050. What do we have to do for regen brands that have 50% market share by 2050? What needs to happen?

David Bronner - 0:52:43
Yeah, I mean, I think it's a full court press on policy and consumer behavior change and farmer support, you know, policy that can really help. Support farmers who want to make the shift and the changes. You know right now we have an ACT policy that basically rewards the worst practices makes it very difficult to do the good ones. And you know organic is you've got this like especially when you take your farm off chemical life support and you haven't built soil fertility and then you can't make a consumer facing claim for three years and and and you know there needs to be help for these farmers and financing support. You know because once you get through it then you're going to be good because you know the premiums are there and you know you built that fertility but that's a real barrier and so. So I think getting financing support for the farmers and and just education, just farmer education, consumer education. Yeah you know it's just all of it you know I'm just and then but creating the consumer demand well you know where there's market demand then I think that's that's so crucial so.

David Bronner - 0:53:21
Yeah, it's.

Anthony Corsaro - 0:53:51
All it comes back to education, right? Farmer education policy, education, consumer education. It's all education, right? And it's all.

David Bronner - 0:53:58
Together. Yeah. I mean, I went on a super deep dive, you know, and I gets just like, OK, wow, I had no idea. And I forgot that. Oh, yeah, air makes all the planet carbon dioxide from there. Oh, yeah. It's like makes everything, you know, you just kind of forget. Like we could learn when you're a kid and, you know, Oh my gosh, you know, just some basic stuff. But it's just. You know it's so incredible and just hopefully more and more people and just appreciate just the magic and the climate change, right. I mean that I mean I think really putting it you know and situating as a as a fundamental climate change strategy to you know sequester carbon and atmosphere carbon through photosynthesis, making the carbohydrates at sequester you know 20 to 40% into the soil and you know through good practice and I think that's a key key one and right now that's a battle, right? I think it's. Definitely forces out there that are Co opting that conversation. So we just got to make sure it's, you know, meaningful and real and Yep, that's a real opportunity. Yeah.

Kyle Krull - 0:54:58
Cool. Well, David, we super appreciate the time. I gotta say, that's probably the most incredible origin story for any brand I've ever heard. It incorporated war, geopolitical conflict, like all sorts of stuff. So that was a brand of gamut there. And I've been using drummers for 20 years. And I didn't know half of that, probably probably 90%. So that was really cool to hear. Yeah, thanks for helping on you know anything, anything else you want to close with?

Anthony Corsaro - 0:55:24
No. The original Dr. Browner spirit is so evident in everything y'all do and it. That's my favorite part about the brand and it's just so clear. And hearing you talk in the history and everything, y'all are doing. So I love that and that's amazing.

David Bronner - 0:55:36
Right on. Thank you, guys. This is awesome. Yeah, I.

Anthony Corsaro - 0:55:40
Appreciate it.

David Bronner - 0:55:41
Thank you.

Anthony Corsaro - 0:55:47
For show notes and more information on our guests and what we discussed on the show, check out our website regenbrands.com that is regenbrands.com. You can also check out our YouTube channel, Regen Brands Podcast for all of our episodes with both video and audio. The best way to support our work is to give us a 5 star rating on your favorite podcast platform and subscribe to future episodes. Thanks so much for tuning into the Region Brands Podcast, brought to you by the region coalition and Outlaw Ventures. We hope you learned something new in this episode and it empowers you to use your voice, your time, and your dollars to help us build a better and more legitimate food system. Love you guys.