#83 - Kyle Sullivan & Jesse Smith @ Figure Ate

Episode Recap:

ReGen Brands Recap #83 - Creating New Enterprises Supporting Ecological Stewardship - (RECAP LINK)

Episode Transcript:

Disclaimer: This transcript was generated with AI and is not 100% accurate.

Kyle Krull - 00:00:13
Welcome to the ReGen Brands Podcast. This is a place for brands, retailers, investors, and other food systems stakeholders to learn about the consumer brand supporting regenerative agriculture and how they're changing the world. This is your host, Kyle, joined by my cohost AC, who's gonna take us into the episode.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:00:34
On this episode, we have Kyle Sullivan and Jesse Smith from Figure Ate Foods and the White Buffalo Land Trust. Kyle serves as the director of marketing and communications, while Jesse serves as the director of land stewardship. Figure Ate is supporting regenerative agriculture with their persimmon vinegar and beef biltong products, And the Figure Ate brand is a part of the larger White Buffalo Land Trust nonprofit that is stewarding the 1,000 acre Jalama Canyon Ranch and serves as a global hub for regenerative land stewardship, ecological monitoring, research, education, training, and enterprise development. In this episode, we learn about why developing demand building enterprises supporting ecological stewardship is a major key to regenerative success. Kyle and Jesse shared the journey of launching the brand, formulating the initial products, and selling across multiple sales channels. Plus, we learn about some of the new projects and products that they have in the works. This was a fun one y'all.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:01:27
Jesse and Kyle are dropping some serious knowledge throughout and sharing a true peek behind the curtain of what building and growing Figure Ate looks like. Let's dive in. What's up, everybody? Welcome back to another episode of the ReGen Brands Podcast. Very excited today to have our friends, Jesse and Kyle from Figure Ate joining us. So welcome, fellas.

Jesse Smith - 00:01:53
Thanks so much. Great to be here.

Kyle Sullivan - 00:01:55
Yeah. Great to be here.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:01:57
If Kyle was here, he would say, we're stoked to have you because that's a signature phrase that's one of the podcast. But it is just me today, and we are equally stoked to have you even with Kyle not being with us. But for those that aren't familiar with Figure Ate, give people a little bit of lay of the land of just what y'all make, where can people find your products today.

Kyle Sullivan - 00:02:15
Sounds great. Yeah. We're Figure Ate, and, we are actually unique in that we are a part of White Buffalo Land Trust, which is a nonprofit in the space. And we make 3 different skews currently. We have 2 different flavors of beef built on, and then we also have a persimmon vinegar. So kind of a a unique spread.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:02:35
Yeah. I have not tried the persimmon vinegar yet, which feels like a sin and a shame. We gotta we gotta fix that. I've had both the built ons. They're phenomenal. And I will say that the video montage on the home page of, like, the salads and the uses of the vinegar, I'm I'm ready for some persimmon vinegar. I never thought I'd say that, but I'm I'm ready for some persimmon

Jesse Smith - 00:02:53
Well, you you might have tried it without knowing it because we do use the persimmon vinegar in the manufacturing of our beef fry. So we can talk a little about that later.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:03:01
Nice. Perfect. Perfect. Cool. Well, you know, Kyle, you just mentioned that Figure Ate is part of this bigger, organization, White Buffalo Land Trust, which is a 5 0 1 c 3 nonprofit. Y'all have, a big, you know, ranch in Santa Barbara County. You're doing all kinds of fun stuff. So, Jesse, maybe fill us in on kind of the entire origin story of this of this bigger organization and also the food brand itself.

Jesse Smith - 00:03:24
Yeah. For sure. Thanks for, teeing that up. So White Buffalo Land Trust was founded in in 2018. And as you mentioned, a nonprofit really devoted to the practice promotion development of regenerative agriculture. We recognize, you know, we're in a unique time, that people were really taking a deep look at ecological health, human health, economic health, and kind of how agriculture played a critical role in the in the middle of all that. And so kind of through the lens of soil, water, biodiversity, human health, we really look to, impact these fields of, food, fiber, medicine production. You know, our organization really put out a theory of change where we always wanted to be direct land stewards ourselves. Mhmm. We wanted to have our feet on the ground, our hands in the soil. We wanted to be doing the work that we felt was needed to be demonstrated.

Jesse Smith - 00:04:09
And so, you know, we started with a a flagship farm back in 2018, a small, you know, 12 acre ranch, mostly focused on perennial agroforestry, orchard crops. But through that lens, we were able to engage with our community. We were able to bring out farmers and ranchers. We were bringing out students, policy advisors, teachers of all kinds, you know, and just getting people's hands in into the work. But we also recognize that there was a much larger, impact that that could be had that needed to be had for our organization, and, that kind of kicked off with a capital campaign in 2019 to acquire the rights to Stewart Canyon Ranch, which is the 1,000 acre ranch here in, Northern Santa Barbara County. And that's really now our center for regenerative agriculture and where the rest of our fields of focus really take shape.

Jesse Smith - 00:05:00
So beyond, the land stewardship, we really have a deep investment in our continual learning, our research, our monitoring, our data collection. And and with that, we know we need to share everything we learn. So our education, our training, our community engagement programs, And then after that, it all kinda rolls up into our, kind of product development and enterprise knowing that this stuff needs to be in the marketplace. So, you know, we've built an amazing team, that kind of cover all those different fields of focus. You know, we kick started our our food brand, very early on in the company. You know, much of the, kind of origin stories of that food brand, extend back actually prior to the founding of of White Buffalo Land Trust, and happy to to kinda open that up, here in this discussion if if it, is of interest.

Jesse Smith - 00:05:41
But the the core of it really being that Figure Ate, was designed in a way to highlight, what we felt was a priority within the field of regenerative agriculture. Mhmm. Priorities such as the reperennialization of our food system and and climate appropriate tree crops, the proper integration and management of of livestock, through holistic and adaptive managed grazing, and the kind of, human health component of how we preserve it, how we process food, how it was stored, and and what we were trying to address through the kind of nutrient needs of the a diverse human population. So, yeah, there's a lot in there. There's a lot of ups and downs. There's a lot of, winds and bumps and bruises.

Jesse Smith - 00:06:36
But for the most part, it has been quite a, an enjoyable ride because of the fact that our community, our our customers have really responded well to not only the mission of the organization, but the products and offerings of the food brand itself.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:06:57
Love it. Yeah. And that certainly resonates with, I think, our work because we feel like this whole branding piece and building these food brands has to be a part of this whole regenerative thing, you know, whatever that whatever that looks like. So 2 2 questions come to mind. What what all are y'all doing at the at the ranch just in terms of agriculture production wise? And then 2, can you can you fill us in on some of more details on the origin story of the brand of, like, why was a food brand such an integral part of the overall vision for the work that White Buffalo wanted to do?

Jesse Smith - 00:07:31
Yeah. For sure. So the the ranch itself, as I mentioned, a 1000 acres, it's actually a closed caption a catchment watershed, at the top of the San Inez watershed here in Northern Santa Barbara County. And it's really depicted by this tapestry of, ecological sites that span, kind of pastured grassland, oak woodlands, coastal sage scrub, rec bearing corridors, you know, where streams, flow. You have a different vegetation pattern where there's, more water, and then the managed agroforestry of orchards and vineyards. And that that patchwork, very indicative of Santa Barbara County, California, Mediterranean climates around the world. I'd like to say we're topographically diverse, which means we're we're really hilly. You know, we we don't have a lot of flat land, so we don't do a lot of annual cropping.

Jesse Smith - 00:08:18
But that also plays a lot into why we, identified this this land base, because agroforestry and, adaptive managed grazing was a big priority for us. So we do run a grass fed, grass finished beef operation here. We finish, north of, you know, a 130 to a 150 head of cattle a year. We work with another amazing regenerative, beef, producer and a direct to consumer institutional, seller, beef company here in California called Rigid Regenerative. So we're one of their, suppliers. We also manage a a vineyard. It's a a small 5 acre vineyard, mixed chardonnay and pinot noir, but it had historically been a conventionally managed vineyard.

Jesse Smith - 00:08:58
And we've been able to demonstrate over the last 3 years what a transition process to a regenerative organic certified vineyard, would look like. And so we're actually in the final throes of that application process right now after that 3 year transition, process. Everything from cover crops to compost to bringing sheep and goats into the vineyard to graze, biological inoculants, hedgerows, habitat creation. But Wow. Primarily, it makes great wine, and we have a fantastic partner with some winemaking aficionados down here in, Lampok, Sashi Mormon, Raja Par with Saundi Wines. And Saundi Wines makes our private label that's an estate designated vintage, and, they've done won some great, accolades, for our wine in the last few years.

Jesse Smith - 00:09:47
So

Anthony Corsaro - 00:09:57
Oh, yeah.

Jesse Smith - 00:09:58
That's that's exciting. And then there's a a host of smaller and emerging enterprises that we're working with, other partners, to focus on our Sage Scrub where we're managing for fire mitigation and habitat creation while also, distilling, essential oils and hydrosols, to go into kind of bath and body with the Flamingo Estates. You know, we're making soaps and candles and facial toners and stuff like that. And some of the things that we have on the horizon that we're really excited about are, elderberries, a native crop, perennial tree crop, very drought resistant, climate appropriate. And so we have a a 5 year project that we just kicked off that's USDA grant funded, to focus on elderberry production, processing, product development, all within this central coastal region.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:10:46
Oh, yeah.

Jesse Smith - 00:10:47
Forest Farm mushrooms and agave are are are on the docket next, but we'll talk about those at

Anthony Corsaro - 00:10:52
a time. Running out of room on the page to, like, mess everything off.

Jesse Smith - 00:10:56
There's a lot going on.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:10:58
Man, y'all are managing some amazing complexity there. The for someone that's probably less ecologically literate than you, you 2, Sage scrub. Give me an education on sage scrub. I'm not familiar with that. And then the the watershed catchment or the Yeah. Word you use there at the top, Jesse. Define that for us.

Jesse Smith - 00:11:16
I I know. For sure. So, please pull me back if I'm, throwing around any, terminology that needs to be unpacked. But coastal sage scrub is just a vegetation, composition. So there's specific, native species of of sages, of, chamise, of of oak, of, elderberry, of, koisinhoke. You know? And so it has a very distinctive growth pattern, height, density, and relationship to native pollinators, birds, and and and mammals and predators. And so it's incredibly valuable, for an ecological sense. However, it has been a, a point of contention amongst both ranchers and, and developers or or, you know, within the what they call the WUI, the wire land urban interface, just because it burns fast and it burns hot, and it's not great forage. So ranchers much rather prefer some nice pasture to feed their cattle on.

Jesse Smith - 00:12:12
And if you have some development or built infrastructure near it, it's kind of a worrisome proposition to have it too dense or not managed. And so what we're trying to do is maintain its ecological, kind of contribution and benefit while also, finding enterprises in order to to manage it appropriately. And that's you kinda talk to us managing complexity. Much of what we do here is kind of a call and response with the land itself in which we do our best to identify what each ecological site, the kind of grass, oak, sage, riparian, like, what what it is needing, what ecological function is maybe lowered or has a higher potential, and what enterprise could be prescribed in order to address that. And so the elderberries and the riparian, the cattle and the grasslands, the oils and the sage, the mushrooms and the oaks, like, those are all enterprises and products that we feel can be supportive of our stewardship of those parts of the land. And and that's why when you deal with this Mediterranean climate and this patchwork, this tapestry, there's so much opportunity and potential, but it is a complex management proposal because it's not just one thing.

Jesse Smith - 00:13:15
Mhmm.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:13:27
Well, that's music to our ears because this is all about, you know, how we create market demand for all this stuff that we're growing on the land regeneratively. Was that was there a specific thing like that that inspired Figure Ate's origin, or was it just broadly, like, the idea that that was coming down the line? Like, where where did the Figure Ate story kinda tie into the ecological story?

Jesse Smith - 00:13:48
Yeah. So maybe I'll back up, prior to even Figure Ate and share a little bit about, the journey that led us there. So my wife, Anna Smith, and I used to, manage, with her family and and our friends, kind of a a multienterprise farming operation, just south of Santa Barbara, a place called Casitas Valley Farm. It was a multi generational, multifamily member, multienterprise. We started with a, organic creamery making artisan cheeses, fresh and aged cheeses. We managed, orchards with 16 acres of avocados, 4 acres of persimmon, 3 acres of apples. We ran a heritage breed piggery where we were, feeding our, our heritage pigs off of the organic way from our creamery, the fruit from our orchards, the brewers match from the local breweries. And then we had an amazing kind of biointensive market garden, mushroom, and microgreen operation, all with kinda integrated education.

Jesse Smith - 00:14:43
So it was a it was a it was a 50 acre property in total, but there's so many different different layers to it. Yeah. And I would say that there's 2, or 3 main learnings that came out of that, that kind of inspired figure a. One was, this experience that we had running the creamery in which we were buying organic, milk from Northern California, usually from either Strauss or Clovers to Netta. You know, they were, you know, larger, but but organic family run, dairies. And our tank was 600 gallons.

Jesse Smith - 00:15:18
So we drive it down the coast and and we bring it into our creamery, and our vat was 300 gallons. So we had 2 batches we can make. The first one was in the fresh cheese. We made curds. We made fetters. Mhmm. So, you know, we made some bloomy rind breeze for a while.

Jesse Smith - 00:15:31
We had a famous organic olive oil submerged feta with herbs and spices. It's like it was, like, the best spread in the world. But then we our 2nd batch was aged cheeses, Jack's, cheddars, stuff like that. And, you know, cut to, you know, a couple days after all the whirlwind of processing, and one batch is continually getting less valuable as it creeps its way to spoilage in a few weeks. And the other one is getting more valuable as it sits there in a nonrefrigerated room with wooden planks and dries into this amazing aged cheese that can survive outside of refrigeration as long as the rind is on. And it just struck us as we were running around trying to sell fresh cheeses at farmers markets around Southern California, like, how important, like, the process of preservation was and the natural process of fermentation, distillation, curing, drying.

Jesse Smith - 00:16:19
And and so that was, like, a big differentiator in just our understanding of the time and energy it took to create a value added product and which category you wanted to be in when you were spending money to keep the cooler running for the fresh cheeses, the amount of money we spent on ice just taking the fresh cheeses to farmers markets. Like, it was just like, and then how much we actually, you know, just had to give away or feed to the pigs or eat ourselves. Like, you know, there's always a little bit of surplus you just can't get through, whereas every aged piece was, you know, valuable to the end. So that was, like, one big thing. And then the second one was our persimmon orchard. You know? Avocados, you never really have an issue with selling. Right?

Jesse Smith - 00:17:06
You you you everybody takes avocados off your hands. Apples, you know, even the stuff that, you couldn't sell, as a perfect crisp eating apple, cideries would buy, you know, you you could you can make some some from. But the persimmons had this really interesting in between, in which they were one of the most productive tree crops on the property. They use, the same amount of water per acre for our persimmon orchard in a year as the avocados did in a week. Wow. And and and they had a bumper crop every year. They had very little in the way of pests, and they're just this amazing sweet, nutritious superfood. And Yeah.

Jesse Smith - 00:17:45
And and I use that just because of the history of persimmons throughout, cultures, throughout Asia, China, Japan, Korea, and and what they were, representing. And we just kind of recognized after we would harvest all our persimmons that we could only sell, like, the top 20%. You know, we're sitting there polishing for Whole Foods, polishing for this market, and you get this perfect flat. That's all people want. Maybe there's some purchases for the tablescape, you know, during the holidays, and the rest you're there's really something, to be said for the fact that you don't have any regional processing to to value add. So that kind of sent us down this rabbit hole of value added production.

Jesse Smith - 00:18:35
We started selling it to a distillery making a persimmon brandy and ultimately kind of tripped into a realization as they left a 5 gallon bucket of fermenting persimmons on the floor of their distillery. And, honestly, this is, it's kind of a crazy story. And I'll I'll give a nod to, Anthony and Henry down at Ventura Spirits, one of my favorite local distilleries. And they called me, like, you gotta get down here. Like, this persimmon vinegar is amazing. And it just it kinda went from there. My my cousin is half Japanese.

Jesse Smith - 00:19:01
He he lives in Japan. He came out, and he was just like, man, everybody makes persimmon vinegar in Japan. They've also make persimmon leaf tea. They use the bark's and fries. Like, you know, it's this whole thing, and we we started with a grant. It's a USDA grant called the value added producers grant.

Jesse Smith - 00:19:16
This was pre White Buffalo Land Trust. It allows us allowed us to create a a business plan, a a marketing plan, a production plan, run a feasibility study. And that was already in hand when we started White Buffalo Land Trust in in 2018, and our founder and president, Steve Finkel of White Buffalo Land Trust, and I really kinda sat down at the time and recognized that we wanted a long standing, economic incentive for the the the nonprofit to be in the food space, and have a a stake in the game of kinda bringing products to market and having a business card out there with products on shelf for our mission. And the persimmon vinegar just checked a lot of the boxes. For us, it was something that, like I said, had a natural preservation process because it was fermented, had almost an indefinite shelf life outside the cold chain. They're still finding, you know, clay carafes of vinegar at the bottom of the ocean and sunken ships or, you know, tombs and stuff like that 1000 of years later, and it's still vinegar.

Jesse Smith - 00:20:15
You know? And, and it's an aid in other natural food preservation. So when we started looking at kind of diversification of our product line, and we knew that not only climate appropriate perennial tree crops was one focus, the other one was being focused on animal integration, holistic managed grazing, adaptive management, finding a preserved meat product, that uses salt and vinegar and air to preserve this amazing, delicious, high quality meat, was a a a natural fit for kind of the expansion of our of our mission and impact. And although they seem like they're such desperately different products and product categories and different shelves, for us, there was a natural synthesis, and so we do use our persimmon vinegar in the, the preservation aiding process of, making the the built on as well.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:21:22
Wow. Yeah. That's so awesome. Yeah. And it's we've talked about this a lot on the podcast. You you touched on there at the end, Jesse. It's like there is this disconnect between the CPG status quo kind of, like, categorical operations and the ecological context of a lot of these, production systems, especially if we're trying to enhance or sustain their biodiversity. And I don't know if we fully, like, passed over that bridge to to really figure how those 2 can continue to kind of be a little bit better wedded, but we need to because we have to make it easy for the producers that are making, you know, that that are that are really enhancing or sustaining those bound of our systems to have some sort of commercial offtake for for those systems that isn't so complexly different businesses or business lines that it doesn't make sense at all. This as a as a guy who just came out of the throes of nonprofit legal counsel and formation, is the food brand a subsidiary subsidiary of the c three? Is it a separate thing that, you know, is, like, partly owned by the c 3? Like, what is the actual setup of Figure Ate versus White Buffalo?

Jesse Smith - 00:22:33
Yeah. I mean, it's very cut and dry and clear as the Figure Ate is 100% owned by, the nonprofit White Buffalo Land Trust. It is it's all part of the same, 5 0 and c 3. It's it's adjusted DBA. Gotcha. Okay. So it's it's all in one. We do, you know, keep our organization and team mostly separate.

Jesse Smith - 00:22:50
I mean, we are running it as a a CPG brand, but there right now, there is no kind of private capital or equity ownership or anything like that within the food brand. It's all just under the nonprofit.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:23:06
Nice. And, Kyle, forgive me if I'm wrong here, but you were involved, I think, all the way from the get go of, like, formation, brand identity, like, an initial logo, visual system. Correct? Am I

Kyle Sullivan - 00:23:19
I came in just after that, actually. But I kinda took it from there at that point. Yeah.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:23:24
Yeah. So what what was that early journey like of really standing this thing up for the first time, especially alongside or or with inside of of White Buffalo?

Kyle Sullivan - 00:23:32
Yeah. For sure. I mean, the so when I started the persimmon vinegar was the sole product that we were working with. And so at that time, we had gotten some distribution into different retailers specifically like around Southern California and throughout California region mostly. And then we had it available on the website and it was just kind of that slow organic process of kind of building from scratch online and it started to get the word out there. And I think, you know, what really helped us initially was all of the different programs that we were holding as White Buffalo as well. So to be able to, you know, tell them the story that Jesse just told and, like, have that kind of broader experience and connection to where that product is coming from was a great entry point to get it into people's hands and kind of start to spread the message just, you know, from, you know, people's word and sharing it and telling their friends and kinda getting it out there. So it's it's been an organic process of of getting that product out there. And then shortly after that, about a year later, we launched the beef biltong.

Kyle Sullivan - 00:24:29
And that was kind of, like you said, like, 2 different product categories. So as we're, like, looking to the food system as it's currently set up, it's 2 very different processes for Yeah. Who are your buyers at the retailer? Are they, you know, reviewing that product category at that time or even willing to bring in a new product? So it did present several challenges to try and fit our our ecological complex model into the, you know, systems that be. So, but we've we've had some great partners along the way that have taken the product in.

Kyle Sullivan - 00:25:09
Air 1 was one of the first, and they'd carried it to all their stores down, around LA. And it's from the really, it's we found that just when people taste it and get it in their hands, it speaks for itself. And I think that that is really something that, you know, any brand should really be aware of is the flavor component is so key. At the end of the day, if if someone can't enjoy what it is that they're buying at the store, they're not gonna come back. So I think we were fortunate from that standpoint that the the product could stand alone and speak for itself. And in in that vein too, we'd submitted it to the Good Food Awards in 2023 and, ended up winning in our in the snacks category, for both flavors, out of like 2,000 entrants.

Kyle Sullivan - 00:25:49
So, yeah, really honored to be a part of that program. And, and that's a blind taste test that also has kind of the ecological, like, elements built into the backside too. So, really speaks speaks to the product.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:26:19
Nice. And I I believe all the built on is land and market, and it's all coming from EOB certified, ranches, I believe, mostly or started at least with White Oak. Right?

Jesse Smith - 00:26:32
Yeah. We start start started with White Oak Pasture, Will Harris down Southern Georgia, and he's actually where I, took my host my first holistic management training Nice. Down there many years ago and, yeah, known him for coming up on a a a decade now. And it was really amazing for them to, support the emergence of our brand as well because they have a a higher, you know, value point to sell direct to their customers. But they also recognize if they want to see this market grow, that providing wholesale to some of these emerging brands is also part of their mission. And and so, we've kinda since outgrown them, and it was a mutual kind of, like, parting. They're like, hey. We'll we'll take our meat back and make more.

Jesse Smith - 00:27:11
And we're like, hey. We, like, we we need more meat. Like, we're we're selling out. We gotta increase our POs. And so it was a fantastic relationship for the the years that it it worked. And so, we're very grateful to be working with Thousand Hills Grass Fed who has, one of the largest, regenerative meat companies here in in the country, and, and has amazing quality, product as well.

Jesse Smith - 00:27:29
And so I think that that's also a differentiator between the food brand and our farm side is that, you know, many people are confused as to why the meat that we have in our product doesn't come from the ranch in which we manage. And there's a few different kind of answers and reasons to that, but the core of the the food brand was to have a platform that extended beyond the reaches of our small little 1,000 acre ranch. Right? Is that it's really hard to have the market infiltration and impact from a single origin. Yeah. And and we didn't really wanna start a a new a meat company and deal with the logistics of transportation and harvest and packaging and the the the diversity of different directions that a whole animal goes.

Jesse Smith - 00:28:15
Right? Yeah. Right. And yet similarly to Will Harris to us, us to Richard's regenerative is that we saw that that's what they were doing. They're doing that really well here in California in their own emerging meat company. So if we can raise animals and feed them as they grow and then we can source from others to grow our food brand, it felt very, very mutualistic as well as, you know, having having those who are really focused on the scaling of regeneratively produced meat, is something that we really, want to support.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:28:59
Yeah. Love that. Steeped in context and nuance. Right? The the knee jerk reaction is like, we have to produce it and we have to put it in the brand, but maybe that's not the right path. Right? Yeah. Is is there you mentioned some of these kind of emerging opportunities on the land slash enterprises for them. Any of those in Figure Ate's future? Is is there anything specifically that you think will come from the land and and go into Figure Ate or still still TBD?

Jesse Smith - 00:29:24
I would say it's still TBD. However, there are definitely hints and shadows on the wall of, of things.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:29:32
I love that.

Jesse Smith - 00:29:32
I I I mentioned, a 5 year project that we've just kick started, here regionally, focused on elderberries. And, that project is part of a larger, partnerships and climate smart commodities grant from the USP. Oh, nice. It's a 3,000,000,000 plus dollar, funding Yeah. Opportunity that's over a 130 different projects in every country I'm sorry, every, state, within the country. And part of ours really does focus not only on a regional production, amongst multiple land bases, a regional processing facility for, frozen berries, for, liquid syrup, and for dried fruit crystals, but then also the r and d and product development for, elderberry SKUs. And that's in partnership with other brands, but also Figure Ate is part of that conversation.

Jesse Smith - 00:30:24
So, we'll we'll we'll see which way the wind blows, but that's something we're actively working on.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:30:35
I I love to hear that, and I love specifically to hear that last part because I think that's what's missing a lot of times from these deeply ecologically led projects is the r and d and the product development to match it. And it's like, I don't wanna mention anyone by name or anything specific, but I guess I'm just saying is, like, we know what the market ceiling for elderberry syrup is. Like, we're not gonna sell more elderberry syrup. I'm sorry. Like, unless unless somebody raises a bunch of money for, like, a giant marketing campaign, I think what we know that's tapped at. So, like, we have to find new ways to get that crop into products that people consume at a higher clip

Kyle Sullivan - 00:31:11
Yep.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:31:11
For some specific reason. I I didn't even know elderberries grew out here. I thought that was, like, a totally midwestern tree crop, so I was I was surprised when you said that.

Jesse Smith - 00:31:19
Well, elderberries are now the 3rd most purchased, medicinal crop, herbal crop in the United States, but most of it comes from Europe. So you're talking, you know, Eastern Europe is where most of the European elderberry, comes from. There is a growing popularity of production stateside. Sambucus canadensis is kind of, the one that you're gonna see in the Midwest and the Northeast. And, out here in the west, though, sambucus caerulea, the blue elderberry, is one that you find from California, Oregon, Washington, growing everywhere from, you know, roadside to to mountain tops to riparian to pastures. It's it's a very adaptive, multi elevation, native crop. I mean, it's it co evolved with this landscape for, you know, 12, 15000 years.

Jesse Smith - 00:32:04
So to, know that and know that if you take off the irrigation, you take away the fertilization, like, the the the plant's gonna live. You know? Now there are some, you know, good practices around pruning and and, and mulching and composting and cover crops and, you know, fertility that can really help support yields and and productivity. And there's nursery development that's part of this as well. But there there's so much opportunity when you start with a plant that already belongs in a place, but then you also start with a market that's already mature enough to know what elderberry is. You know?

Jesse Smith - 00:32:54
You ask most people, especially in the last few years where human health has become a heightened priority

Kyle Sullivan - 00:32:59
Yeah.

Jesse Smith - 00:32:59
At, you know, what elderberry is. Like, oh, yeah. Of course. Elderberry syrup. Right? Mhmm. But you're seeing in a lot more places, and I I have a, you know, habit of walking through the grocery store and snapping pictures of elderberry products now. And you're it's creeping out of the medicinal, aisle. Let's just put it that way. You're you're seeing it in kombuchas. You're seeing it in confections. You're seeing it coloring in things. You know? It's got a really rich and beautiful color to it.

Jesse Smith - 00:33:20
So, yeah, there's a lot of exploration, in the food as well as, the the other kind of byproduct uses of elderberry processing.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:33:35
Yeah. It's such a good ecological crop for all the reasons you just mentioned, and it's such a nutritional powerhouse. Like, we gotta find more product formats and more velocities for those SKUs or what whatever they are. You know? Like, that's that's the game.

Jesse Smith - 00:33:48
Yes. So we're we're actively open to inquiries from brands, businesses who are just interested in, the domestic the domestic production of elderberries either to shift their supply. They already source elderberries, and now they wanna learn what does it look like to source domestic elderberries, or for, kinda natural product development saying, hey. I really I have a platform that I feel would be ripe to highlight this, this this ingredient. It's because we're we're in, you know, such early stages of this 5 year process that there's questions that we can ask. You know, we this is this USDA call was specifically not a research project, but there's plenty of room for learnings and service of market development. So the the the understanding around nutritional profiles or compounds, is something that's, of deep interest to us over this process.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:34:38
Cool. Well, I wanna kinda take us into the commercial side a little bit, and I guess almost bifurcate it based on the 2 the 2 product categories y'all are dealing with. Right? So we have the vinegar, and then we have the 2 builtongs. What is the journey been like commercializing those those products? And and really, I guess, separately, you know, successes, challenges for each, specific context. Kyle, you kind of mentioned, alluded to a little bit earlier.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:34:52
Just take us down some of the journey of commercialization for each of those.

Jesse Smith - 00:35:05
Yeah. I'm, happy to let, Kyle chime in here, but maybe I'll set a little bit of context too on the different kind of spheres of engagement in that commercialization process that we have to go through. You know, when we when we start from a position of being a nonprofit devoted to regenerative agriculture, The first piece is obviously the relationship with the land and the farmer and the production. So, like, where is it coming from? How is it being grown? What quality is of it? What consistency is it, you know, for us to be able to, build a market, for this product around? The second piece is kind of the processing. Right?

Jesse Smith - 00:35:32
It's, you know, you know, how is it what what what shape or form is it coming in? How do you handle it when it lands? How long does that take? What is the loss, what is the conversion, you know, there there there's that piece. Then there's the, like, the packaging. You know?

Jesse Smith - 00:35:49
Like, how much of it goes into the bottle or bag, you know, what kind of package is it in is it in, what kind of shelf life, you know, what kind of shape, how shippable is it, sending packages over the rockies, you know, whether it's,

Kyle Sullivan - 00:36:11
you

Jesse Smith - 00:36:11
know, a glass bottle or a a a a a bag or something like that is always a dangerous proposition, you know, as elevation change and pressure change and all that kind of stuff. And then there's the component of of storytelling. What goes on that package? Like, what do you say? You have such limited real estate to to say what you wanna say, and not many people even go that far as Kyle alluded to before. Like, you gotta hit them with taste. Like, you you got you gotta start what's what's in the what's in the package.

Jesse Smith - 00:36:38
But there are some pieces that you really do wanna make sure are there. And and then the last one is obviously the biggest one. Right? How do you actually convert this fantastic thing that you spend all your time and energy and money in into a sale and an actual customer interaction engagement experience, and hopefully, beyond acquisition of of customers, you know, you get retention and repeat, and you get natural kind of inflow to people's hearts and minds and lives, and people start sharing it around, stuff like that. So that's kind of where and we have different team members that deal with different parts of that. We all do our best to be aware and cognizant of the the trials and tribulations and hurdles and as well as the opportunities that arise and how we engage with it.

Jesse Smith - 00:37:18
I think that I'll start by saying that, you know, one of the main roles that I play is one of the relationship with the farmer and the land and the source, Not only because, you know, that's my role within the organization as director of land stewardship, but also, I do a lot of work in ecological monitoring. So when it comes to any kind of justification of the production and the the navigation of the certifications, That's something that, I I do a lot of support with. We we recognize very early on that building out processing facilities and running our own processing facilities was a a foolhardy effort. Like, we I think one of the biggest, strengths of our organization is knowing what we're good at Yeah. And and partnering with people who are equally as talented at what they're good at. Yeah.

Jesse Smith - 00:38:13
And and so, you know, finding processing partners that have committed their life energy to really figuring out the nuance of whether it be built on manufacturing or vinegar and wine and vinegar production is, like, the the best thing that we, have been able to to to figure out. And and then once you kind of get into the packaging, as as many people know in this CPG space, it is the biggest game of trade offs.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:38:50
You

Jesse Smith - 00:38:51
know, it's trade offs of weight. It's trade offs of material. It's trade offs of costs. It's trade off of, you know, just the customer experience, you know, what it's like to hold it in your hand. And you're always balancing. I think that for me, that's one of the more the more difficult, pieces is just like the packaging component. And, you know, early on, it was, you know, seals of the, of the vinegar. Let's just put it this way. They're they're not allowing me to to to hand wax, dip, and label our bottles anymore.

Jesse Smith - 00:39:17
I I I could attest to the fact that our first holiday season, the persimmon vinegar sales, was my wife and I getting ready for holiday markets by utilizing our daughter's Harry Potter books. They're the perfect thickness to align the bottom of your labels. So if you lay a glass bottle next to a Harry Potter book, then you can perfectly align that label sticker. And we just did thousands of these bottles by hand, and I just said never never again. Like you know? But you you those those are the things that you live and you learn. You know, small little bifold hang tags with beautiful jute strings around the top.

Jesse Smith - 00:39:55
Those went by the wayside really quick, fell off in boxes. They they were never with the bottles. So it's all these things that you can, like, hypothesize about the most beautiful, the most aesthetic, the most Mhmm. You know, functional aspect of your packaging. And then ultimately, you're like, I need something that rolls on clean, has no bubbles, you know, doesn't peel inside of a fridge refrigerating truck or

Kyle Sullivan - 00:40:26
Yeah. The

Jesse Smith - 00:40:27
condensation hits it or whatever it may be, and and then you you kind of, roll forward with that. But, yeah, I'll I'll pass it to Kyle because he's much more, on, the focus of of what goes on pack and how we communicate that to our customers and how do we convert. Yeah.

Kyle Sullivan - 00:40:45
Yeah. I think that's a great summary. I mean, it's just this, like, constant iteration on all the different levels. And and those learnings from starting from scratch and just seeing the most basic setup to getting to more of a commercialized scale and having more production and being able to, you know, store that warehouses and and have it fulfilled across the country. There's just layers of complexity that continue to unfold. And then, you know, from a pack standpoint of like communications and what's on it, that's also been an evolutionary journey of like what is resonating with the customer, what is like number one priority. And I think that, you know, especially with the beef built on, we've like leaned into, nutrition kind of benchmarks that are like prominent on the pack of like 32 grams of proteins, 0 grams of sugar. And so it's it's touching on those lifestyle components that resonate with, you know, what we're looking for when we're at the store, but also like bringing in, you know, flavor and then yeah. How do you tell this, you know, regenerative narrative that we just spent the last 30 minutes getting into on Yeah. One paragraph on the back of this.

Kyle Sullivan - 00:41:44
Or, you know, adding a QR code, which is our biggest addition to our last packaging run, and bringing them to the website to have a little bit more of a deep dive. But even still, one page on the site, how do we kind of get into those concepts from a core level and start to educate? But I think that's, you know, that's the biggest challenge, but that's the biggest opportunity from the side of things too because it's there's so many different small stories to be told that start to paint the picture of this, you know, bigger shift in vision that's happening. And so there's so many different opportunities that we can, you know, jump into to do that.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:42:31
Yeah. Just like this common thing with the brands we talked to is, like, there's too much to talk about. And so it's such a hard decision as to what you actually talk about. And then where does that go? Does it go on email marketing? Does it go on packaging? Does it go, you know, this place, that place, social? And I was reflecting on what you guys are both saying.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:42:42
I took a couple notes. It's like, I wrote local aero regional aero national, and it's like almost the playbook for each of those looks different. And you get really good at one to then level up to the other, and you have to learn a different playbook. Like, what the farmer's market consumer is looking for is different than what the regional grocery consumer is looking for, than what the whole food sprout shopper is looking for. Right? So there's this there's this path we see with brands where they have to kind of learn how to do each one and then what they keep along that journey.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:43:10
And then I also wrote, like, direct arrow ecom arrow retail. And so, like, by sales channel, it's different whether it's retail food service, ecommerce, direct people are coming to visit you guys at the at the spa and buying stuff there. It's a it's a different purchasing journey and and much different purchasing drivers. So I'm imagining many fun meetings with that whiteboard behind you all fully filled with a lot of information on that.

Jesse Smith - 00:43:43
You you just picked up on one of our major, organizational inside jokes is, me and a whiteboard. I can't tell you the bags and and boxes of of pens that I have. I I'm a very visual person. And so every meeting is an absolute, like, org map redesign of Into the Venn diagram. Yeah. You know? Exactly.

Jesse Smith - 00:43:56
But it's something that I I I do wanna pick up, you know, on that Kyle mentioned is, you know, deciding to what unpack and what lean into is really trying to start with what's important to the the customer, you know, and knowing that most people are picking up our product because of the fact that they they think it's gonna taste good and it's gonna be good for them. The the ecological benefit, the support of the nonprofit, all of that, we recognize that's tertiary at best. Like, maybe if they're at a field day here, like Yeah. That's primary. Maybe it's like, I'm here. I heard your story. Of course, I'm gonna, you know, contribute.

Jesse Smith - 00:44:36
But if it's Wednesday and you're grabbing snacks off a shelf for, you know, the kids' lunchbox the next day, then it's just it's gotta make sense for for for their lives. And so one of the things that we're really interested in is, like, what is that synthesizing clear communication of the value proposition and balancing that with the kind of legal constraints

Kyle Sullivan - 00:45:06
Mhmm.

Jesse Smith - 00:45:06
On pack from the USDA and FSIS and their label review. And I and I find one of the most fascinating moments in this entire journey was a, a point in which, our incredibly factual and accurate statement on the pack front pack of our built on that says 0 grams of of sugar, because there's none in there and there's none added. We got a fantastic letter, threatening lawsuit because of the implication that our product was a low calorie food. The implication that it was a low calorie food because we said it was 0 grams of sugar. I was like, we never said it was low calorie. We just said it was 0 grams of sugar, which is accurate. But that that's a misleading statement. And it's like, wow.

Jesse Smith - 00:45:41
Like, you you you with these consumer advocacy legal watchdogs, you know, you can't say something that's true just in case someone perceived it as something other than what you were saying. And and that's just so fascinating to me and how we're we're seeing a lot in this space around certifications and on package claims is, becoming to, is being drawn now from this, hyper risk aversion, not wanting to essentially put yourself liable to to a lawsuit for making a climate claim or a health claim or something like that. So it's going to continue to emerge and, kind of drawn from the desired value proposition. So as you mentioned, I often use like, you don't need 30 third party certification if you're selling at a local farmer's market many times. You obviously see some people with certified organic. I get that. Mhmm.

Jesse Smith - 00:46:41
But if you're sitting there behind your own product in a community that people know you and you say, bring your kids out for a farm tour, like, I'll show you that you know, my practice. I'll show you my farm. Like, there's trust in that relationship. But if your product is sitting on a shelf, you know, 3000 miles away Right. And someone's just breezing by it, you need someone to speak on your behalf, and that's what third party certifications do. And where we're recognizing in this field some complexity is the value proposition between farmer and, say, an aggregator, whether it's, you know, almonds or wheat or whatever it may be.

Jesse Smith - 00:47:11
It that that's one value proposition. But then if you're an aggregator distributor that you're going to another business in a b to b relationship, that's a different value proposition. And then if you're going from a a brand to a market to a retailer, that's another b to b value proposition Versus a brand to a end consumer or a retail end consumer, that's a completely different value proposition. So you have at least 5 or 6 different, probably more, potential value propositions against between different stakeholders within this food system, and you add in the layer of complexity of mass balance, like an ingredient that's just a small component of a larger ingredient list, and then trying to bring through this regenerative narrative from the farm all the way to the final product becomes a very, very complex value proposition. It's why our products are very simple labels. You know? It's persimmon vinegar has what in it. Right? Persimmons. And then, like, what does our beef have in it?

Jesse Smith - 00:48:18
Beef and a few organic spices. You know? And and it's just like it it makes it so much more clear as to what we're selling you and what store we're telling you as to the impact of that ingredient. But we we we recognize that there are people with 5, 10, 16 plus ingredients.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:48:47
Mhmm.

Jesse Smith - 00:48:48
How do you tell the story of the, you know, 13% regenerative ingredient in there?

Anthony Corsaro - 00:48:55
Yeah. Yeah. It's a challenge. I mean, y'all know this from being a part of the coalition. It's like we're trying to figure out what this regen messaging thing looks like in a more unified capacity. And my big takeaway from the work that we've done, today, and shout out to Alexandra who's a consultant who's helped us with some of that, is the entire space is really obsessed with defining and arguing about the definition. And no one's really doing an amazing job. Individual brands and products are, but us as a community are not doing an amazing job of actually marketing a product or what regenerative is as a product to the consumer, you know, holistically and agnostic of brand product certification. And and I don't think we're gonna I don't think we're gonna find whatever the the maxed out value of that is until we start doing that. But it is incredibly complex, and it's different messaging as you said based on the context of whether we're talking to an investor, whether we're talking to a retailer, whether we're talking to an end consumer, whether we're talking to an influencer.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:49:43
It just it looks radically different.

Jesse Smith - 00:49:58
We we didn't even dive into publicly traded companies and investors and Right. You know, stakeholders, you know, shareholders. Like, there there's much broader implications when you start talking about, kind of environmental metrics and goals and and and greenhouse gas impacts and scope 3 emissions. Like, there's a lot that goes into what the benefits are that's purported to be coming from regenerative agriculture. Who cares about them? Who would pay who will pay for them? And how do you communicate that value? And in this defining and in this I don't know.

Jesse Smith - 00:50:23
I don't wanna call it value extraction, but in many of the value propositions is that it feels like there, is a desire to extract value before enough value has been grown. Mhmm. And and so we're we're really doing our best to grow value within, the field through, raising the ecological literacy of the community, really helping farmers and ranchers in their transition process and figuring out what it looks like on the land to make it work for their farms, and then really kind of supporting not only you know, ours our food brand is small in the grand scheme of the global kind of food marketplace. However, our nonprofit is working with some of the largest brands across both food and fiber and medicine to help them navigate what it looks like to dip their toes into this regenerative space as well. How do they communicate? How do they engage with their farmers?

Jesse Smith - 00:51:21
And for me, most importantly, how do you formulate products in service of what the land needs instead of ask the the land to bend over backwards in service of your product? And I think if that's just the if that's one of the main shifts we see in this field of products taking on a slightly different form in order to represent what a true kind of regenerating ecological farm or ranch enterprise looks like Mhmm. Then I think we're gonna see a lot more, ability to to clearly communicate what the impact is.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:51:58
Mhmm. No. Amen. It goes back to that whole product development, like, innovation pipeline type piece, and that's historically, I think, been used by CPGs as a cost cutting mechanism and, honestly, as a margin protection and increase mechanism for their businesses in a way that's, I think, also been a big, part of the lack of food dollar back to the farmer. And we need to create a seat at the table for the farmer and for the land, which is why I think that was, like, takeaway too in our winning section of our recent report. It's like regenerative brands boost markets that boost biodiversity, like on farm. It's because they have a seat at the table of product formulations. And I think that also dovetails into what you said, Jesse, around the simplicity of the products that you guys sell right now. It's easier to tell that story.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:52:33
It's easier to tell the story when it's just beef. It's easier to tell that story when it's just chicken or pork that's been raised regeneratively. Right? Because it's just one single hero ingredient versus a 15 ingredient granola or Yeah. You know, a 20 ingredient ice cream. And we have some people doing that so very well, but it's it's just more challenging and more complex. Yeah.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:52:54
Just a baseline for people, like, where is product distribution for the product portfolio at right now? And, like, what are some goals there? What are some strategies to grow just where the brand's at right now?

Kyle Sullivan - 00:53:08
Yeah. So we are currently in a 134 different doors across the country, and that was, as I mentioned earlier, like started around, Central and Southern California and has since expanded to the East Coast. We have distribution through CAHI on the East Coast. We are carried by mom's organic grocer on the East Coast. And then we're also looking at different regions currently. It's looking like, Minnesota is soon to open up. And then yeah.

Kyle Sullivan - 00:53:33
Another great opportunity that we have had recently is, Sprouts is going to be taking us on early next year as a innovation table brand. So we're gonna be yeah. We're super excited.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:53:50
We're

Kyle Sullivan - 00:53:50
gonna be featured alongside several other, regen brands that are kind of new to the space, and it's gonna just test to sell through that. And so we're optimistic. So if you find us at Sprouts in the new year, please support us and

Anthony Corsaro - 00:54:02
Nice.

Kyle Sullivan - 00:54:03
Help help all these brands that are working to get into those retailers and expand. Outside of the retail expansion, we have also been focusing on direct to customer, and that has, really seen some really good growth over the last couple months. It's been great to expand our team over the last few months and

Jesse Smith - 00:54:24
Yeah.

Kyle Sullivan - 00:54:24
Having that support and, you know, really good people on the ground is making all the difference in terms of starting to build that momentum. And and it's, you know, I'm sure as you know, it's very complex, the different channels that you can go through and, you know, working with influencers, working with the different sales platforms, advertising. TikTok shop is now, you know, a thing. There's there's so many different, opportunities to get the brand in front of new people and which is exciting. And, we've been really pleasantly surprised by the response by the different influencers and folks that we've reached out to. And just getting the story, to them and being able to share some samples and and share that experience, people have really took it on and and started to spread the message and we've we've seen the growth from that too, from the kind of referrals. I think that, you know, that personal referral and endorsement means so much for brands and so we're grateful to have amazing partners and, you know, a big one on shout out right now has been Casey Means.

Kyle Sullivan - 00:55:14
She just released a new book called Good Energy and it's fantastic on, you know, health and and how it kinda transform our personal health. And and she's been an advocate supporter of our work and and loves the products as well. So just so many people like that that have come into the fold of the organization and really helped us spread the word. It's been great.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:55:47
Yeah. Her they've been crushing it lately. Good good time to be, a friend of Casey Meads for sure. So that's amazing.

Jesse Smith - 00:55:53
Yeah. It was interesting. We, actually just had, an event out here at the ranch, what, 2 days ago, working with a a outfit called outstanding in the field. They do kind of rural farm ranch dinners. They're kinda well known for their long single meandering table, and so we got to invite, quite a few of our community out, and they have their own following. But to meet people that you had never met before that had already tried your products is such a a a a privilege and a and a pleasure to just have that FaceTime and and hear the stories of, how they use it, you know, who they've shared it with, where they've taken it in the world, why why is it that they were drawn to it. You know, many people, it is that health piece. Like, to know that they have regeneratively raised beef that has gone through just an air dry curing process with a unbelievably clean label with organic herbs and and no sugar. They're like, I've had my health issues, and this is what I need for my protein. Like, this is exactly what I need.

Jesse Smith - 00:56:48
And it's it's also been, really interesting to see people, look at our product and even say, you know, yeah. There's an elevated price point, you can you know, compared to some conventional beef jerky. But if you look at, you know, the dry weight of our built on compared to what a wet weight of a steak would be of the equivalent size, it's an absolute steal. Like you know? And so that there there's a lot I think a lot more value people are seeing in the product for their own health and some of the work that we're doing in, nutrient density testing in beef as well. Yeah.

Jesse Smith - 00:57:29
And so we've been part of a multiyear, nutrient density study in in beef around the country, first with the Bionutrient Food Association and now has kind of been brought within the nutrient density alliance, at Green America, working with, some labs, out in the East Coast. And just really grateful to be part of this community nationwide of people who are really leaning into, yes, there's ecological health, but we have to show that this this this beef is also better for you. And, so anyways, with the it it was a it was a fantastic and it Pat brought up Casey Means. She was at the dinner this last weekend. And so, it was also really cool to, see people who were at the dinner. Like, is that Casey Means? Like, I've been listening to her podcast.

Jesse Smith - 00:58:08
I guess and I I had to tell her. I was like, you have quite the following in this field. There's a lot of people that are really kind of aligned with the message that you and your brother are sharing that, people have been waiting to hear. So yeah.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:58:27
Yeah. No. That's amazing. And the the health piece is so is so critical, and we're gonna continue to just to get, I think, really, really good at that. And that'll be a key differentiator of the people doing the real work in the space versus those not exactly how that translates into commercial activation, I think, is still TBD. Yeah. Any anything you can share with us on the product innovation pipeline roadmap? We don't wanna give away too many secrets, but if anything you can share with us there.

Jesse Smith - 00:58:54
Yeah. Of course. Well, I mean, I actually have a question for you, and this is a little bit of a a market research for us. Do you do you eat meat?

Anthony Corsaro - 00:59:03
Of course. Do you eat meat? I'm like I'm like 6 days a week regenerative beef and bison, meat eater.

Jesse Smith - 00:59:09
Alright. So do you do you ever consume jerky or biltong or any kind of, like, flavor?

Anthony Corsaro - 00:59:14
I crushed, like, 4 bags of, Figure Ate built on at RFSI 2 weeks ago.

Jesse Smith - 00:59:19
Just in the back. Oh, nice. Yes. I forgot we we were out in our FSR as well and so the bags. So putting our our products aside, what would be one of your your favorite flavors, of, say, beef jerky or something like that?

Anthony Corsaro - 00:59:34
Good question. I'm I'm don't usually buy a lot of the flavors because I feel like most of the main brands have shitty ingredients to make the flavors. But I feel like there's a huge opportunity in that category to bring over some of the flavors that have been popularized by the chip category, like, especially the tortilla chip category. So that would be Yeah. I don't know. That would be my answer there. I think there's opportunities with that.

Jesse Smith - 00:59:56
Well, you you hit it right right on the the head is that is that, you know, in our in our market kind of, engagement, there's been kind of some learnings from where flavored chips and snacks and where flavored kinda jerkies, have really propelled brands, but also just really meet, like a, a kind of a culinary sensitivity for for customers. And so, we're doing it for a couple different, reasons. One is that we feel like there's a a slight hole in our flavor profile for our Bill Tong. So bringing our our approach to clean ingredient labels, but with the diversification of, of options, for people. And 2, having a a third SKU within our, our Bill Tong, really helps with with some, market access, or retail access as anybody can attest to looks at that end cap of jerkies and billed tongs. There's usually 3 rows. You

Anthony Corsaro - 01:00:53
should have spacings.

Jesse Smith - 01:00:54
And so they like 3 they like 3 skews. And so, yes, we're doing some, some r and d right now on a on a new flavor of of the beef built on.

Anthony Corsaro - 01:01:04
Nice. Yeah. Well, super fun conversation. Y'all really appreciate it. Last question, final question. The question we ask everybody, how do we get regen brands to 50% market share by 2050?

Jesse Smith - 01:01:20
Well, gosh. We probably have it's kinda like defining regenerative agriculture. There's a lot lot lot of different, approaches to this. I'll take a quick step.

Anthony Corsaro - 01:01:31
There's many sub questions that people wanna ask, and we've tried to keep it vague on purpose. You know? Yeah.

Jesse Smith - 01:01:38
Well, I mean, I'll keep it vague with my answer then. I think it's gonna be take a multi pronged approach. I think there's gonna be a lot of different, elements that come together at one time. I I hope none of them are catastrophic, but kinda system, kinda stimulation is definitely one that can have a a a shock to kinda get people to pay attention. But I think it's gonna actually just be the fact that people are starting to focus more on what, healthy food, truly is to their to to them as individuals. Yeah. I think this is a a real increase in the availability of technology and biomarkers and kind of human health monitoring where people are gonna be able to make decisions in a much more rapid iteration of I ate this thing and my body responded this way, not in, like, I should let me do this for 3 years and see how this diet changes, but, like, let let me do this right now and then send in a sample or have on this watch, something like that, and immediately watch my, my levels change. I think that's gonna be a big one.

Jesse Smith - 01:02:42
I think that there's going to be a much larger, funding priority from both, governmental agencies as well as nongovernmental agencies as well as private investment in some of these approaches to land stewardship. And the will behind those is probably gonna be just as diverse. Some of it's gonna be self preservation. Some of it's gonna be national security. Some of it's gonna be market mandate, table stakes, you know, for product development, whatever it may be. Mhmm.

Jesse Smith - 01:03:09
And I think that there's also gonna be a, like, a maturation. I used this analogy the other day of, it feels like we're creating a beautiful wood, you know, cutting board or table, for everybody to eat at, and we're having to polish our way through the different grits of sandpaper. You know, in this regenerative space, you know, you you start at, you know, a 60 grit, you know, stripping, and you you gotta you gotta just kinda get it down to the rough, you know, studs.

Anthony Corsaro - 01:03:43
Mhmm.

Jesse Smith - 01:03:44
And then you kinda jump up to, you know, your 80, and you you get a little bit of a finer grain. And, like, you gotta keep going through the process of of refining your practices, you know, relying back on your principles, setting new context until you really have a a system that shines, that you know the nuance. You can really see the grains of, and it's hardened and and weatherproof. And so in this regenerative space on the farm side, I feel like we're still refining our approaches to these different systems and how they reintegrate. And so I think that there's gonna be a lot of things maturing at a similar time, bringing back the small, medium scale processing facilities in, throughout the country. And there will be a quorum of these energies that are all putting put into place right now that I I do believe will, mature at the right time and, at the right pace. And I think our kids are gonna have the privilege of growing up in a world and not knowing anything other than a regenerative form of agriculture and and a food system.

Jesse Smith - 01:04:34
And I I mean, I got a 10 year old right now, and she would just be like, of of course, that's how you farm. Like, of of course, that's how you shop. Like, what are you talking about? Like Yeah. And I think that there's gonna be more generations to come like that.

Anthony Corsaro - 01:04:54
I can get behind that vision, brother. Hell, yeah. I love that analogy too of the, of the sandpaper table and and doing that work. That's that's amazing. Yeah. Kyle, what do you got? Yeah.

Kyle Sullivan - 01:05:06
I mean, I I love that response. I think that is a great kind of synergy of all the different, things that need to come together to make it happen. I think that it is kind of in my mind, to simplify it even more, it's just like the the coming together of 3 different things. 1 is the the flavor and the taste and experience of the product. The other is the quality of the nutrients and, you know, how that is for our health. And the third being the ecological component. And, you know, as we've talked about throughout this conversation, like, every single stakeholder from across the production system all the way through the customer has different priorities and different, you know, personal things in that moment that they're working through. And they're gonna have a different entry point to that product.

Kyle Sullivan - 01:05:50
But I think that through that kind of 3 pronged approach, you're you're hitting at least a a lot a large segment of, what people are looking for out there.

Anthony Corsaro - 01:06:02
Yeah.

Kyle Sullivan - 01:06:02
And, hopefully, you know, with that momentum, we can shift stuff from there.

Anthony Corsaro - 01:06:07
Yeah. I like those 3 options. Those are good options to have. Thank you. Certainly. I, I will do what Kyle usually does, and I will share the website, which is Figure Ate, the the word, like, 8, like, I ate something, ate foods.com. Anything else that people should know or other places to find y'all before we before we let you go?

Jesse Smith - 01:06:25
I'd say check out our website also at whitebuffalolandtrust, dot org. Yeah. We have some, great events programs if anyone ever wants to come out and and visit, the ranch. Anyone in the the Denver, Colorado area area, I'll be out there for the REGENERATE conference here in, early November, and talking on the panel and engaging with some of the field out there. And we just, hope that people, keep a lookout for our products in the marketplace. We're just, coming up on a fantastic, release of our most recent vintage of wine from our vineyards. So, check over check out over our website for more information on, getting your hands on some of that limited run, Pinot from out here in California from a fantastic regenerative vineyard.

Anthony Corsaro - 01:07:16
Hell, yeah. Appreciate y'all. Amazing. Thank you so much.

Jesse Smith - 01:07:19
Thank you. Thank you.

Anthony Corsaro - 01:07:23
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