#87 - Camilla Marcus @ west~bourne

Episode Recap:

ReGen Brands Recap #87 - Chef Curation & Cultural Persuasion - (RECAP LINK)

Episode Transcript:

Disclaimer: This transcript was generated with AI and is not 100% accurate.

Kyle Krull - 00:00:13
Welcome to the ReGen Brands Podcast. This is a place for brands, retailers, investors, and other food system stakeholders to learn about the consumer brand supporting regenerative agriculture and how they're changing the world. This is your host, Kyle, joined by my cohost AC, who's gonna take us into the episode.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:00:34
On this episode, we have Camilla Marcus, who is the founder and CEO at west~bourne. west~bourne is supporting regenerative agriculture with their chef driven snacks and pantry staples, all impeccably sourced, utilizing regenerative, sustainable, and organic ingredients. The brand's ethos is eat well, do better, gather often. In this episode, Camilla shares her journey from chef to brand founder, the philosophy behind Westbourne's unique model, the challenges and triumphs of leading with sustainability in the CPG space, and how Camilla is driving impact far beyond the plate. We talk about west~bourne's new regenerative holiday box, Camilla's new cookbook, My Regenerative Kitchen, and celebrate their recent big win with the fresh market. Let's go. What's up, everybody?

Anthony Corsaro - 00:01:09
Welcome back to another episode of the ReGen Brands Podcast. Very excited today to have our friend Camilla from west~bourne with us. So welcome, Camilla.

Kyle Krull - 00:01:30
Hi. We're super excited to have you. I briefly perused the website, and I gotta say it's got, like, posh vibes. Hopefully, don't take that the wrong way. It's just, like, it seems super super high end, very, very high quality, and I'm excited

Anthony Corsaro - 00:01:42
to see more. Chef curated vibes, Kyle.

Kyle Krull - 00:01:45
See, there you go. This is I'm I'm here to learn.

Camilla Marcus - 00:01:47
I'll take posh. I'm into that.

Kyle Krull - 00:01:49
I mean, I got a funny story about Posh, like, where that actually came from. It stands for port outbound to starboard home, and it's just a pretty where they used to mark the high end luggage on passenger freight from, like, like, London to France. Anyway Google

Camilla Marcus - 00:02:04
that one day. You were like, I'm into learning what Posh is.

Kyle Krull - 00:02:07
Somebody told me what it was.

Camilla Marcus - 00:02:08
I've never heard anyone say that.

Kyle Krull - 00:02:10
Someone told me I used to live with a British dude, and, like, it just stuck. I thought it was so interesting. Oh, man.

Camilla Marcus - 00:02:16
Well, the name, you know, Westbourne obviously is I actually used to live on Westbourne Drive in LA and, you know, had family who lived in on Westbourne Grove in London. So we actually have a lot of people who either think you know, depending on the place, but we had a lot of, you know, my old restaurant, we had a lot of Londoners, and they're like, this is from London. I'm like, it's not. So I'll take that.

Kyle Krull - 00:02:38
Hey. It it fits in well. We didn't plan this, but somehow it made sense, which I appreciate. Well, for those who are not familiar with Westbourne, give us a quick lay of the land. Like, what sort of products do you produce, and where can people find Westbourne products today?

Camilla Marcus - 00:02:52
Yeah. So look. We're on a mission to build the next generation's brand focused on what I think is true sustainability. So regeneratively sourced, carbon neutral supply chain, plastic free from the start. You know, you look at how our generation consumes with retail and beauty and everything's about what packaging it comes in and, you know, formulation and what's in everything, and then you go down the grocery aisle and a lot of the better for you brands are filled with plastic, filled with preservatives, and frankly, not really focused on carbon even though they talk about sustainability. So our hero products right now are avocado oil. We have a finishing and a cooking oil. 100% pure, again, plastic free. Even our tamper vans are backyard compostable.

Camilla Marcus - 00:03:27
And then we do a ton of specialty kinda limited edition drops on the website. We've got a whole suite of new products coming down the pike, in 2025. But, you know, again, really sort of we're only a couple years in and, you know, starting to test different kinds of product SKUs. But, again, the whole goal is really how do you consume in a way that's mindful of the climate and really thinking about the supply chain from, you know, what we say, seed to shelf.

Kyle Krull - 00:04:05
Oh, yeah. Love it.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:04:06
Love it. Yeah. I've been following y'all for a couple years now, Camilla, and I'm excited to just hear all of your learnings. Right? Because I've been seeing all the fun things that y'all are doing, and you're just a very unique and interesting, I think, person as a brand founder, chef. That's nice.

Camilla Marcus - 00:04:20
You have

Anthony Corsaro - 00:04:20
a JD. You have an MBA. Like, you've done all this activist work. So just fill us in on you. Like yeah. Tell tell us about you and and, like, why you wanted to start a food brand.

Camilla Marcus - 00:04:32
Yeah. I mean, to be fair, food's really always been my lung love language even when I was younger. It's funny when you look back at your life, right, especially childhood, and when you have kids, you reflect a lot about sort of how you were raised. Missus Gooch was my next door neighbor. She was the predecessor to Whole Foods on the West Coast. Whole Foods bought her stores. And Wow. You know, I was always, like, her taste tester. I mean, I was that kid that ate anything, the crazier, the better.

Camilla Marcus - 00:04:52
You know, I'm a very high octane person, so I would go to sushi restaurants back in the day when, you know, no one was eating sushi, and I'd say, you know, try and scare me, try and intimidate me. I was definitely that kind of kid. But I think I just always saw the power of food. I mean, every right? We eat multiple times a day. I always say, from an investment standpoint, it's a 100% total addressable market. It is the thing we have to do so many times.

Camilla Marcus - 00:05:14
And what if that could have a compound impact? So I think that, my passion was always food. I cooked for everyone in college. I went to culinary school right out of college. I just always had that feeling of it's our most universal language. It's what brings us together.

Camilla Marcus - 00:05:28
I love sort of the genealogy. Right? Even chicken soup. Right? Every culture has some version of that. And Mhmm.

Camilla Marcus - 00:05:37
It's something that we can all relate to and we're all raised with. And I don't know. I I I'm a glass half full kind of person, sunny side of the street, you know, kind of optimist, and I just love the power of food. It's something we can all understand and we share no matter what differences we think we have. And, you know, there's nothing more human than gathering around a table.

Kyle Krull - 00:06:05
I love that answer, and I'm curious to see a little bit more of, like, the professional background. Like, you mentioned you went to culinary school after college. So, like Yes. Where did the journey start Yeah. In food, and how did it lead to the launch of Westbourne as a brand?

Camilla Marcus - 00:06:18
Yeah. I mean, even in college, you know, my I met my husband in college, and we were, like, the funny college students going to, like, downtown Philly to, you know, the hole in the wall restaurant and getting to know the chef and just kind of consuming things that way. We lived abroad in Rome, and, you know, I cooked probably twice a week for everyone we knew in town. And then, again, like, no matter how far we always went to the, like, restaurant that no one else had heard about, and it was always how I was even when I was younger, which is funny because I don't really come from a food family. Like, my parents laugh. They're like, we don't really understand why you're so into this. And I think also, you know, you asked sort of professional.

Camilla Marcus - 00:06:49
I mean, growing up, my 2, you know, biggest strengths was math. And then, you know, I was, like, multiple grades ahead in math and then also studio art. So I think for me, that's also where cooking came as just spoke to my left brain, right brain. Like, it's so creative, but it also has this tactical, you know, operational piece to it. And I always laugh because cooks always say that they're bad at math and science, and I'm like, you're doing physics and chemistry. Like, you just don't actually realize it.

Camilla Marcus - 00:07:18
Yeah. When I asked you to convert all these weights, you could do it like this, but you're telling everyone that you're bad at math, which is sort of funny. And I also think it's interesting. There's so many creatives that I think are told by society, like, you know, you're not smart or you're not smart in the right way and in a mainstream way, but, actually, they're doing it absolutely every day. So I loved that. So when I came out of college, I went straight to culinary school, went to the French Culinary Institute and totally fell in love with it.

Camilla Marcus - 00:07:45
I mean, my class had people from 20 different countries, all different ages, all different backgrounds. And, you know, I wrote about this in my new cookbook, but I remember loving the vegetarian station because it was like the dump station. There's no recipes. You didn't have to follow the rules, which I'm not very good at anyway. And it was all the stuff from the week that, like, no one knew what to do with. And they'd be like, okay.

Camilla Marcus - 00:08:12
You know, at the time they had local, I don't think it's open anymore. But you got to work in a real restaurant, like, people paying, you know, paying, but, obviously, it was student led and run by the teachers. But it was the one station where, like, no one wanted anything to do with it. And Mhmm. Most of the students hated it. Right?

Camilla Marcus - 00:08:27
They wanted to be on saucier. They wanted to, like, prove they could cook meat. And I was like, I've got that, but that's also, you know, rubric. Right? It's the same dish every night, which to me is like I never people always ask me what's your specialty. I'm like, I hate cooking things twice.

Camilla Marcus - 00:08:38
Honestly, making it difficult was, like, very challenging to have to make something multiple times. So I loved it. It was, like, total gloves off. You know, you could do whatever you wanted. And I think for me, you know, again, the intensity sort of not knowing how the night's gonna go and, you know, having to make something out of chaos very much speaks to to my soul. So then, look, 2008 happened. Like, we were all, you know, the first fired from jobs. Most of my friends left the country. Like, people kind of forget.

Camilla Marcus - 00:09:07
I remember when COVID hit and people are you know, a lot of my employees were pretty distraught, and I said, it really wasn't the same. 2008, it was like the lights were really off. And especially if you were young and had no work experience, like, no one was hiring. So I went to grad school, turned into a JDMBA, never intended to practice law, but I use it every single day. I mean, food is the most, you know, compliance oriented business. Restaurants are like a hornet's nest of law. So I feel very grateful that I have that background.

Camilla Marcus - 00:09:36
I use it pretty much every day. Sometimes my team's like, I think you know a little bit too much. Like, other people just don't care about this stuff. I'm like, I know I wish I could sort of turn that part of my brain off sometimes. But, yeah, I mean, I would say I'm sort of a Swiss army knife. I mean, I just kind of was never afraid to jump into something different even if it wasn't totally, you know, the path.

Camilla Marcus - 00:10:00
I don't know that I even believe in the path. And when I graduated, ended up in real estate finance doing private equity investments.

Kyle Krull - 00:10:17
Basically

Anthony Corsaro - 00:10:17
That's shocking to hear. That's, like, so Cripple. That was not that was not on my bingo card, but sorry to

Camilla Marcus - 00:10:23
say I cut you off. What happened was you know, again, you have to remember the context. You know, 2012, the world was, like, slowly coming back. And, you know, I, at that time, was already I had worked with Tom Colicchio. I was already talking to Danny Meyer and his team. And I sort of said, like, I think I need right. In any food business, you know, retail, right, like a restaurant, your real estate's kind of the most important thing. It makes or breaks a restaurant. Location, your deal, how you're gonna make money, what the, you know, covenants are operationally. So I sort of said to them, look. Like, I think I need this background.

Camilla Marcus - 00:10:50
And, also, the younger you are, I always tell people, the younger you are, do the harder jobs. Background. And, also, the younger you are, I always tell people, the younger you are, do the harder jobs. It's just hard. You know, even people

Kyle Krull - 00:11:02
wanna go into cooking.

Camilla Marcus - 00:11:02
I'm like,

Kyle Krull - 00:11:03
the time to be

Camilla Marcus - 00:11:03
a line cook is in your twenties when you have unlimited energy. You have no responsibility. Like, it doesn't really matter what you make. You gotta do the hard stuff early. So I decided to do it just to really understand from the inside out, like, what would make a restaurant successful or not, and then ended up back with Danny. So we'd kept in touch that whole time. And it was wild. I mean, just wild times. And I think that's where I sort of refound my love for sustainability.

Camilla Marcus - 00:11:23
I mean, I always had seen, I think, in a big way how much restaurants influence popular culture. And this is kind of, again, on the precipice of chefs becoming, you know, household names and celebrities, and this is pre products and media. I mean, I remember even when I started the company and I said to Danny, I think we should pitch you for, like, a Netflix show and some like, a deal. And he was like, who wants to be on TV? You know? And now it's like, that's where a lot of chefs are really making their money is, you know Mhmm.

Camilla Marcus - 00:11:58
Obviously, top chef had been around then, and, you know, Tom really broke that category. But, you know, sort of early days, again, of seeing how food could be just in the zeitgeist. And I think that definitely influences what I'm building at Westbourne, which is like, we would just wanna make regenerative cool. Right? Like, just as much as organic is on the tip of everyone's tongue or, you know, clean beauty. Right?

Camilla Marcus - 00:12:19
Everyone's talking about clean beauty and formulation and what you're putting on your body. And, you know, our sole mission is getting people to care about that with stuff that goes inside their body.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:12:37
Mhmm. What what was, like, the first time you heard the term regenerative, or why did it resonate? Like, what what about Yeah. That? Like, what's your regen story?

Camilla Marcus - 00:12:46
I think that I discovered it when I was in early days of working on my first restaurant, which was also called Westbourne in SoHo in New York. Mhmm. You know, around the time that I was, like, you know, leaving Union Square Hospitality Group, a lot of that driven by, like, you know, the company just wasn't focused on sustainability. They weren't talking about the supply chain. We weren't you know, I even remember sitting down with Randy Garutti at Shake Shack, and I was like, at some point, like, why aren't you doing an upcycle veggie burger? Like, look how much

Anthony Corsaro - 00:13:19
Mhmm.

Camilla Marcus - 00:13:19
We have from all these businesses. Like, you could make a veggie burger the thing. We have world renowned chefs. We could come up with the world's greatest formulation. Like, no one's really doing that, but the world is moving plant based. So, you know, I'd say probably around that time when 3rd plate, you know, and Dan Barber published 3rd plate, which I have read cover to cover many, many times. I love when people are like, I've heard of it. I'm like, have you read it? And they're like, well, I haven't. I'm like, okay.

Camilla Marcus - 00:13:40
But you need to open it and actually read it. So I think it was probably around that time that I first heard of, you know, the word regenerative and then really deep dove into what does that mean and how can we be part of it and what can we do to really get that into, again, sort of pop culture, if you will. So I just remember reading his book and being like, he's he's cracked it open, but a lot of people are not gonna read this, and they're not gonna understand what to do. And so with my restaurant sourcing through certain farms, thinking a lot about how we put food on a plate. Right? Kale. Restaurants made kale cool.

Camilla Marcus - 00:14:14
Restaurants make a lot of new ingredients sort of coveted. And so that's where I think that kernel of how can the food system be transformed by a restaurant, by chefs, by products. To me, that's really what changes the narrative, and it's amazingly powerful. I mean and I think without a lot of credit, you know, nothing like COVID to humble restaurateurs and chefs. We were told very clearly by this country that they don't give, you know, 2¢ about us. So, you know, there's an interesting dichotomy in that when you think about, you know, food in this country. It's funny you were saying posh and referencing the UK.

Camilla Marcus - 00:14:53
You know, in Europe, restaurants and food businesses are super prestigious. I mean, it is a career. It is a lifetime career. It is respected. They are right? That's why bodegas are nicer than some of our Michelin restaurants. Right?

Camilla Marcus - 00:15:12
You go to a corner store in France, and it's like some of the best direct from farm produce that you're gonna get. And here, we really have to work for it. There's just this stranglehold from the industrial revolution, but also, I think, just a very different cultural reverence for, you know, food businesses. It's seen as a commodity. I always said in restaurants, like, you're treated like Con Ed. I mean, you're treated like a public utility, but you're not paid for it.

Camilla Marcus - 00:15:37
So it's,

Kyle Krull - 00:15:43
you

Camilla Marcus - 00:15:44
know, sometimes a little tough. So I would say it was probably around that time that Third Plate was published. And, you know, New York, especially Hudson Valley, has such a hotbed of some of these early regen farms. And so, you know, embarrassment of riches and kind of that is meant being in that location as a young chef and restaurateur. Sorry. That was a very long long

Kyle Krull - 00:16:06
No. No. It's a

Camilla Marcus - 00:16:07
long answer to probably a simple question.

Kyle Krull - 00:16:10
No. I'm curious. Like, how do you go from regenerative focused restaurant to I wanna create a CPG brand? And what did that arc look like? And what did you learn? I mean, obviously, you spend so much time in, like, the restaurant space, and it's really interesting to have somebody who's so restaurant focused. And I think a lot of what you said is absolutely true, but also hasn't really been shared on this podcast before because we're so CPG focused. So, yeah, what did what did that transition look like?

Camilla Marcus - 00:16:34
Products, you know, sorry, guys, but mostly run by men, targeted to women, and men who have marketing backgrounds and who have never touched the food supply system. So it's always funny when you look. I always tell women follow the money and look at who's in charge. CPG is very dominated by men in marketing, who have zero food experience whatsoever. So it is funny too because sometimes people are like, oh, you pivoted, and it's so interesting. And I'm like, no. I actually know how food is made.

Camilla Marcus - 00:16:55
I've seen how food is grown and where it goes and how it's made and how it gets to your shelf. You know, think about restaurants. It's all about distributors. I mean, so I guess the short answer, and then I'll tell you a funny anecdote, on that, which is it was always on the it was always on the business plan. You know, the restaurant to me was always kind of our Trojan horse. It was really to see if people were ready for this kind of dining to be more climate centered, you know, from food waste to no I mean, we have no disposable, no plastic, whatsoever, which at that time, you know, now it's more proliferated.

Camilla Marcus - 00:17:24
No one was doing, you know, silverware in store. No one was saying, you know what? Our to go boxes are just not gonna be plastic. We are not doing that. We are not gonna have a plastic bag. No one was talking about that. And no one was really discussing menu design for food waste.

Camilla Marcus - 00:17:46
No one had a plant based I mean, I laugh now with EMP and, you know, Daniel Hung getting all the credit for vegetarian, but, like, we were doing really elevated events. Even to this day, we do know, you know, everything is plant based when we cook for even large scale, really high end luxury events. No one at that time was doing that. So, you know, what started the CPG journey, it was always on the it was always on the business plan because think about it. In a four wall business, there's only so much impact you can have. There's only so many people you can see in a given day.

Camilla Marcus - 00:18:21
So I was already thinking of, okay, if you can create this community, that then kind of catapults you into legitimacy, brand recognition, and, you know, a base community to go to a grocery store. But the first big, okay, I think I'm semi good at this, was I get a phone call from the Glossier team. Their offices were around the corner. We had done a lot with them over the years. We're kind of like their cafeteria. Some of their early employees were old friends of mine, before they had worked at Glossier, and they were just big supporters.

Camilla Marcus - 00:18:50
Like, you know, my first article was you know, one of my first articles on me was Into the Gloss. And, you know, I kinda laughed. I was like, no one's gonna read this. I don't know who I am, and also, like, I can't really pick up or beauty products. It's like, I'm a chef. I'm sweating 247. I don't know. I want to know, like, my skin care routine. So they had called and they said, you know, we're re releasing berrybomb.com.

Camilla Marcus - 00:19:09
You know, at that time, their balm flavor releases were, like, kind of a big deal, and they only did 1 to 2 a year. And they said the team wants you to be sort of the partner with it. It was between you and Ina Garten, and I, like, almost cried. I was like, you should have chosen Ina. I wanna meet her. And they said we have 4 weeks to ship 300 products around the country, and we're gonna have another 300.

Camilla Marcus - 00:19:35
100 in your store, 200 at our store for this launch. And I was like, we can do that. No problem. So, of course, I go back to the team, and they're like, what did you agree to? Like, what are you talking about? We have no idea how we're gonna do this. So we ended up doing we had a blueberry compote, on our menu from the start.

Camilla Marcus - 00:19:51
And, obviously, again, in the book, I talk a lot about preserves and stews and ways to extend produce. So we ended up jarring berrybomb.com fully custom for them. And that's when I was like, okay. If I can do that in 4 weeks and, you know, impress a company that's, you know, far more advanced than I am, I think we can do this. So, honestly, there was a gap because of COVID.

Camilla Marcus - 00:20:20
You know, my the world kind of flipped upside down in 2020, but 2020 was supposed to be our launch year, and then it ended up being 2022. But through that period, we sold a lot of products to the restaurant. We had our snacks. Like I said, we did the compote on a limited run. We would always, like, for certain seasons, do, you know, little giftables. I mean, things like we designed a lot of our plate wear with my cousin who's a ceramicist.

Camilla Marcus - 00:20:39
Like, we could not keep $50 mugs on the shelves. It was unbelievable. I was like, who's buying that? You know, sometimes you make stuff kind of for yourself, and you're like, who is buying this? So, you know, I think the restaurant is where a lot of that was seated, but it was always the plan, you know, to get into every home across the country, not just, you know, our 700 square foot store in SoHo. So I hate I won't let anyone say it's a pivot because it's not a pivot, and it was always on the business plan.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:21:17
And we were already doing it.

Camilla Marcus - 00:21:18
We were already doing it out of the restaurant.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:21:21
It it's food. Right? And part I think part of the problem is actually my my guess is being called a pivot because we have to always create these such huge separations between retail and food service. And, like, really thriving food cultures, that doesn't exist. That exists in America because we've industrialized everything so much, but it's it's food. Like

Camilla Marcus - 00:21:41
Well, also, like I said, there is, I think, this very big mental separation. You know, what you said, Kyle, I think is, you know, fortunately or unfortunately true. A lot of how we look at food businesses, like I said, chefs are seen in this, like, very different category. You have this select few that are celebrities. Everyone else, people just kind of write off. Right? They're back of the house. You don't see them. A lot of people don't really regard them.

Camilla Marcus - 00:22:01
A lot of people don't really respect, like, the amount of work and talent and skill that goes into what you experience at a restaurant. But then CPG founders are like gods. They're on every magazine. You know, they're everywhere. Like, I laughed. I still want someone to write this article.

Camilla Marcus - 00:22:16
Like, I will never forget. It was, I think, a year into starting Westbourne, and every front cover of, you know, New York Times, Wall Street Journal, every morning show. Starbucks has announced that in 2025, they're gonna get rid of straws. I'm like, who the f is gonna remember in 2025 whether they got rid of straws? Like, I wanna see the follow-up article. It's like, we let them have every airwave for a month on this initiative.

Camilla Marcus - 00:22:46
Like, we're never gonna know whether they did it or not. So it's so interesting how there's this, you know and you look at these sales of big CPG companies, and they get on, you know, all these big podcasts, and they're heralded as these heroes of the food supply chain. Not many chefs get that same attention. So I do think also the division is based a lot on sort of how we look right. A business leader is regarded very differently as a chef or restauranteur, which is crazy because they're equally mission critical businesses. They are places and businesses that we all frequent that are core to our daily lives. But, you know, we saw it no bigger than COVID.

Camilla Marcus - 00:23:27
I mean, I'll never forget that Sunday when everyone had the stay at home order in New York, I called Wes Moore, who's now governor of Maryland, who was the head of Robinhood, and I said, you know what the problem is? The 2nd largest employer in this country is restaurants, and no one has considered that that industry can't work from home. And no one is thinking about any single one of them, and I promise you tomorrow, unemployment website will be crashed. And he was like, what do you mean? I'm like, think about it. Everyone's like, great. We're working from home. All these people can't work from home, and no one even thinks about them.

Camilla Marcus - 00:23:59
So I agree with you. I do think there's a big separation, and I feel it's very sad because they're equally as critical. You just don't like I said, chefs think they're not good at math. They don't think they're good at science, and that's what they do all day. There is this American cultural bias and, you know, unfortunately, I think sort of lack of respect for the food industry and their participation in

Kyle Krull - 00:24:30
this.

Camilla Marcus - 00:24:30
And then they, you know, they love to have chef sort of sign off on their products, but they're seen as sort of a very different category.

Kyle Krull - 00:24:38
It is interesting, and I have not yet spent time in Europe planning to go next year for the first time. But I think what you and AC are describing is, like, the the industrial United States version of food and the European model are extremely different. And I think a lot of it's just due to the regionality of Europe, whereas the United States, everything needs to be uniform across such widespread geography. You know, that changes the way business is

Camilla Marcus - 00:25:01
done. But that is all because of the industrial revolution that's been before. I mean, a lot of that uniformity is because post war, there was a reason for it. And then when certain people started getting their pockets lined, they held on for dear life, and they spent a shit ton messaging that that's important even though it's not. I mean, I say to people too, you know and, again, it's something I talk about in the book. Elon Musk won. He convinced everyone that your car is the biggest driver of carbon emissions. It is a joke compared to the food system. Almost a blip.

Camilla Marcus - 00:25:30
But every person in America thinks that their car choice is the most important thing they can do for the environment. LOL. I mean, it's not at all. So it's you know, again, you follow the money and you follow who's in charge. That's exactly why we still have it that way. And Europe just has a very different financial system. They have a very different incentive system. Private and public markets interact in very different ways.

Camilla Marcus - 00:25:54
But here, I think it's because you had a couple people get really rich post war, and they've held on tight. I'm wondering if you're really good marketing, you know, really good marketing job. But for example, I hear all the time about premium pricing rate for regenerative agriculture or yeah, but anything that's not plastic is more expensive. I just did a podcast, with Roddy Davlukia, and a lot of people have picked it up. Plastic is cheap because we subsidize it. It's not inherently cheap.

Camilla Marcus - 00:26:22
I think people forget corn is cheap because we subsidize it. Sugar is cheap because we subsidize it. Honey is not more expensive. We just haven't sat down and redrawn the map. We're very good at redrawing, you know, voting districts, but we have spent zero time redrawing the tariff map, the subsidy map for food. Mhmm.

Camilla Marcus - 00:26:42
We just have from literally 70 years ago, and no one has said maybe we should relook at, like, what we pay for. I mean, plastic is not cheap. You pay for it to be cheap. If we decided tomorrow that regenerative agriculture should get the subsidies that corn and sugar have, we would have a completely different grocery aisle and completely different system tomorrow.

Kyle Krull - 00:27:15
Totally agree. And in particular, you know, not only are all these industries being subsidized, they're also causing chronic disease, which we're then paying a second time as taxpayers to treat the medical byproduct of that that subsidization. Right? So to your point, if we subsidize real food, healthy food, nutrient dense food that has a beneficial, human component and climate component, like, the entire society changes. So Well,

Camilla Marcus - 00:27:39
I would say 2 things on that. And I I was asked to actually be an early partner in the restaurant as well with Impossible Foods. And I said, look. You're gonna make a 1,000,000,000 bajillion dollars. I get it you wanna offer me equity, but I don't believe in any of this. Because the truth is any solution that says it's for climate that isn't good for your health won't be good for climate, and that has been proven time and time again. None of these companies did anything for carbon. None of these companies did anything for food cost and access. None of these companies did anything for the environment.

Camilla Marcus - 00:28:00
And to your earlier point, you know, you asked why food? My dad spent his entire career pretty much in the life sciences. And when you hear major researchers, people are at the cutting edge of health, whether it's diagnostics, therapeutics, you know, breakthrough research. Every single person will tell you within 5 seconds first. By the time it gets to me, we're already in a problem. People need to be focusing on food.

Camilla Marcus - 00:28:24
Every person in the health sciences will tell you food is where we need to begin, and we still haven't picked up the script. So that is also one of the reasons that I got into food because I saw firsthand as a kid. You know, I was fortunate. My dad would take us to symposiums, you know, on neurology, on oncology. Every single therapeutic will tell you it starts with food and what you eat, and we have to get there. We have to break this subsidy system to better support the things that, to your point, are also good for like, it's better for the economy.

Camilla Marcus - 00:28:56
It's better for people's wallets. It's better for their homes and not only their health and the planet. So when I hear I get a lot of people who say, yeah, but your stuff's expensive. I go, eventually, it won't be. But the truth is you know, I I remember speaking to a couple investors when we first started, a couple who backed, you know, meaty and impossible, you know, and they're hammering me on unit economics. And I said, oh, really? Like, so what's meaty's margins? Like, how do they make money, and what does it cost to make something in a lab?

Camilla Marcus - 00:29:26
Again, you have to remember, my dad's in the life sciences. Anything lab created is going to be multiples more expensive than what's grown on our land, but that's not what we're told. Right? The zeitgeist is, oh, that's gonna be cheaper. We're gonna feed the world out of a lab. Talk to any person who's worked in the life sciences. It's expensive.

Camilla Marcus - 00:29:43
It's extraordinarily expensive. And that's also what we've learned time and time again, and we put 1,000,000,000 into solutions where they say they're gonna feed the world on cheap food, which makes no sense and has never worked. It's, like, unbelievable seeing this, like, cycle. Right? Venture capital goes into something because it's patentable. They spread you know, and every media picks it up and talks about how incredible these companies are, and they're saving the world, and it never ends up delivering.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:30:22
Yeah. I I think this group is

Camilla Marcus - 00:30:25
go off. I could go off for a long time.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:30:28
No. I mean and so could we. I think I think we're all aligned on that. And it's it can be discouraging sometimes to try to come back into the micro and say, okay. What the hell could we do about that today? About that giant behemoth issue? So where my mind's going is, like, when you try to think of the first product. Right? And as you've gone through the product innovation and what you guys have actually launched, like, how have you thought about that? And what has the agriculture story been?

Anthony Corsaro - 00:30:48
What's the sourcing story been? Like, take us through some of the products you developed and launched and and the story behind them.

Camilla Marcus - 00:31:00
Yeah. You know, it's interesting. We launched in a very different way and, you know, a lot of investors don't and didn't like this, which was, you know, I really wanted to launch as a portfolio brand because I wanted the brand to resonate as something bigger than just one product. I want us to have license to touch anything much like Patagonia. I mean, I they're totally a company that I think of as, you know, a North Star. Whatever you get from Patagonia, whether it's a hat, whether it's, you know, a carabiner, whether it's a T shirt, you know that there's a sensibility that goes into it, a commitment to quality, and a sourcing, you know, ethos and sense of ethics. That's what we wanted to establish out of the gate. So we actually launched with probably 15 products across multiple

Kyle Krull - 00:31:48
Wow.

Camilla Marcus - 00:31:49
Categories. You know? Unpopular opinion, but I wanted to do it because I wanted to use our DTC channel to test, to see what people are responding to, to see what we were interested in making. And then also starting some of those grocery conversations to see, you know, what's high growth, where's their opportunity, where can we really stand out. So we had 3 types of baking mixes. We had preserves, which we still release, you know, quarterly. We have one this season for holiday.

Kyle Krull - 00:32:18
Mhmm.

Camilla Marcus - 00:32:19
We had snacks, which we're gonna be bringing back in a new way in 2025, and our avocado oil. So, you know, again, unpopular opinion, but I sort of said, look. I think our secret sauce is product development. A lot of that is also because I'm a food person, so we can do it in house. We don't have to go to a co man and say, I'm looking to whip something up. Like, we go to them, and we say, this is the formulation. This is the sourcing. This is the packaging. We just really want you to put it together, but, like Mhmm.

Kyle Krull - 00:32:48
We

Camilla Marcus - 00:32:48
don't really want you to touch any piece of the supply chain, which is totally unusual. Yeah. So as we've gone along, you know, I think a lot of it is seeing new things that I find interesting or driven by a partner, like, last year for holiday. So we used to do, again, coming out of the blueberry compote is sort of where the butter idea came from from. I grew up for holidays. William Sonoma used to do, like, pumpkin and apple butter, and I loved them. And they used to only do it for holiday. And it's funny because so many people are like, what's a butter? I said, it's really jam and preserves without all the crazy sugar.

Camilla Marcus - 00:33:19
There's no refined sugar and no preservatives, no added additives, no pectin, no gelatin. Like, frankly, what a preserve really should be. But to your point of industrialization, right, it's not meant to sit on the shelf for 5 years, the way that we're used to. So for that one, we had been one of the first people to test Oishi Berry, their office their, like, pickup when they first launched, like, soft launch was right by our restaurant. So every time they had, like, a drop, we would send someone, and the whole team would taste it, and we'd talk about vertical farming. I was an early investor in a vertical farm company in New York way back in the day. You know, we talk about it as a team in the restaurant.

Camilla Marcus - 00:33:57
Like, where is this going? What's it doing for the environment? Why are we moving into this? How do we think about this versus regenerative agriculture? So I DM ed Oishi Berry one day, and I sent them, like, what happens to the ugly berries? Because I think people also think indoor farming means all of them are perfect, which we know is not true.

Camilla Marcus - 00:34:16
Like, it's just about really energy conservation and, you know, environmental control, but a plant is still a plant. Not every strawberry is this, like, pristine thing. Right.

Kyle Krull - 00:34:31
So it's

Camilla Marcus - 00:34:31
like, what happens to the ugly berries? And they said, you know, no one's ever asked us that before. We actually freeze them, and we're not really sure what to do with it. And I said, well, could I have them and make something out of it? Because the first step in a preserve is freezing them. It helps break down the fruit and save you a lot of time and energy on making the the better. So that's really how that one came out, and we sold out in 2 days. We did another drop in you know, we ended up bringing it back for Valentine's Day because they were like, wait. Wait. We were planning on, like, a holiday campaign.

Camilla Marcus - 00:34:53
We had to call all these media that were, you know, gonna post about it. We were like, we don't have anything left, so please don't put us in your trip guide. So I don't know. A lot of our you know, we have a we have a marble tray now. Again, kinda similar. I mean, I love I think our generation I love how we curate the stovetop. You know, again, think about our parents. Like Mhmm.

Camilla Marcus - 00:35:17
They had Weston vegetable oil in plastic containers, like, somewhere hidden in the pantry that was probably expired. Right? Tough. Now it's like you go to someone's home and, like, the salt they use, the vinegar they have out, the oil selection, you know, that says something about them, and it is this, like, really I mean, even that you know, even single guys, you go into their kitchens, and it's like a moment. And so I sort of thought and, again, I think that's where, you know, some of the passion behind the avocado oil came from was this is, like, someone's personal moment. They're telling you who they are. They're telling you their values, and it's one of the few things in pantry that's not hidden. Right? So you go to someone's house.

Camilla Marcus - 00:35:55
You know, you're on the podcast with kettle on fire behind you. You're telling someone something. In most homes, that's kind of the one moment that's out proudly. So that's where the trade came from. You know, we did a limited edition with Montana LaBelle and sort of talked through, like, can you have this piece that gives prominence and, again, that sort of sense of pride for the avocado oil duo? It can be used also on your tabletop. You know, you can have bread on one side and the dip on the other.

Camilla Marcus - 00:36:29
You can use it for your jewelry if you really want to. You know? You can use your bread side for water. But just this moment for the stovetop, you know, and making that something special, I think, was really important. So I don't know. That's how I think about product development, and I'm always I mean, there's so many things left that we wanna do. So we're we're only in early innings.

Kyle Krull - 00:36:58
I think you I love the way you described the moment in the kitchen. That is, like, totally like, we bought my house. We're guilty that my wife and I and all of our friends' houses, we're all very much into, like, the local food scene in Central Oregon, sourcing local, like, oh, like, did you buy your bread from Milfire Baker this week? You know, is that loaf prominently displayed? Right? We and we're not, like, ticking the boxes and, like, marking criteria, but it's so interesting to talk about and it's something that we care so much about. So I think it's really cool that you're focusing on that specific kinda niche area where you can make that statement. But I'm gonna do the opposite of what AC just did, and AC really kinda zoomed in about the product specifically.

Kyle Krull - 00:37:30
I wanna zoom back out and talk about the cultural zeitgeist you've mentioned a few times. And I'm really curious to get your take on, like, what will it take to make regenerative cool, and how can regenerative build the right trojan horse to penetrate the culture that you guys say and make waves and get more consumer adoption and consumer awareness around this type of food?

Camilla Marcus - 00:37:54
I think it's a couple things. I mean, one, it's one of the reasons I wrote the cookbook. I think the cookbooks do a lot to make things more popular. Right? It's very approachable. You get people you know, they're reading, like, 10 pages, not a full novel. So it's, like, with pretty pictures and, you know, other things. So to me, right, even in each of the recipe intros, they're learning something about carbon. They don't know it, and, you know, I don't say it, but they're actually learning about the carbon life cycle.

Camilla Marcus - 00:38:17
They're learning something about regenerative farming that they might not even know just by reading a recipe and making something. So, again, that Trojan horse of let me give you right. Everyone loves cookbooks. Everyone collects them, you know, especially our generation. There's this it's sort of the last also, like, analog piece. Right? Everyone reads on their Kindles, but people don't cook from their Kindle. They buy a cookbook. Yeah. Right?

Camilla Marcus - 00:38:37
Like, I think there's a lot of digitization of books, but cookbooks, I think, will always be this, like, physical piece. Mhmm. So I think the cookbook's a big piece of it. Look. I think media. Like, a lot of what I say, you know, you read business of fashion and you look at how retail and beauty are reported on. Right?

Camilla Marcus - 00:38:56
Like, I love Saeb Beauty. I think what they've been doing in making, you know, carbon consciousness incredible and, like, you're right, your blush, your lip gloss. Like, they've made that tide. But a lot of that too is that media's reporting on it. When you talk to food media, I mean, I can't even tell you how hard it is for me to get people to wanna write about regenerative. They're so happy to write about, you know, x y z company that's innovation is in their plastic packaging. It boggles my mind. You know?

Camilla Marcus - 00:39:25
And they'll write articles and articles, right, on cellular meat. And you're like, this isn't an innovation. We've learned it doesn't work, but they're dominating headlines. Right? Like, no straws in 2025 is a joke. We need to be pressuring media and getting them around this.

Camilla Marcus - 00:39:42
Like like I said, I mean, you go to business of fashion, there is an article on alternative textiles and regenerative sourcing for cotton and other fabrics probably once a week. Even Eater, Food and Wine, Bon Appetit, they don't write on this almost at all versus a lot of these other publications and other industries that are giving award. Right? Like, Say has won a ton of awards for the way that they've redone their supply chain to be sustainability minded. No CPG companies are getting any attention for that. And

Kyle Krull - 00:40:22
Wayne, I wanna play devil's advocate here, and I'm curious, though, like, what you think the why is. Because

Camilla Marcus - 00:40:27
Yeah.

Kyle Krull - 00:40:28
Is it that in my mind, all these different media outlets write about what people want to read. Right? Because that's how they make their revenue. So is it possible that the consumer is not yet ready to even the consumer of media isn't interested enough in regenerative? And if that is the case, how do we bridge that gap? Or how do we make it more simple for these news media people?

Camilla Marcus - 00:40:49
The how, not the what. And I would say that because, right, why would business of fashion write an article every week on regenerative cotton? I mean, you know, I I find it hard to believe that it's not consumer demand, but I do think it's the what and or sorry, the why and sort of how it's written about that needs to be catchy. Right? Like, everyone's clicking on clickbait articles. That type of style can all I think there's this sense of, like, oh, if I write about regenerative food, it has to be, like, really serious. Right? You know, it has to be encyclopedic versus talking about, you know, Stella McCartney's new bag and the new leather, you know, the, obviously, non hide leather that they're working on.

Camilla Marcus - 00:41:21
Or you look at Pangaea and what they've been able to do with, you know, their textiles. I don't I mean, I hear you, but I think when you look at all these other publications for other industries, I don't know. It's hard to say. You know, what we as food media and in the food press reward, give attention to is also a choice. So I hear you, and I get that from a lot of writers. They say, oh, well, you know, the editors doesn't wanna do it because it doesn't convert as much. And I said, well, maybe it's about how the article's written.

Camilla Marcus - 00:41:55
And, also, look at the awards landscape. I mean, I'd also say that. Great. You maybe don't wanna write an article because it's not clickbait enough, but look at what the awards are going to versus you look at all the beauty awards, and what they're rewarding is really people who are moving away from 1st gen plastic, who are thinking about how they're growing, you know, ingredients that are going into these products. But our CPG awards, all big, you know, nominations, they're not including anything that's regenerative for the most part. So I think it's both, personally.

Camilla Marcus - 00:42:23
And then I'd say 3rd is, like, I you know, for better or worse, I think a lot of it too is driven by, you know, celebrity and who's talking about what. Right? Like, the right person you know, Billie Eilish has done a lot for sustainability. I mean, she has a full sustainability rider when she does anything, even a photo shoot. They have to compost. They can't use plastic.

Camilla Marcus - 00:42:50
You know, Coldplay did a plastic free tour recently and required that all water bottles be shifted to aluminum. I mean, that's huge. Right? Think about that. If someone said, hey. Right? Beyonce's next to her. She's like, I want it to be plant based, and we're gonna work with regenerative farms.

Camilla Marcus - 00:43:07
You would see a big, I think, shift in how people think about it. But I don't know. That's just my 2¢.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:43:22
Yeah. I mean, when you peel back the layers of culture, there's so many different things you can talk about. So it's it's hard to pinpoint it down. Right? I think you did a really good job covering it. I I struggle with one piece of comparing food and, beauty and fashion to food. And I think the primary purchasing drivers are different. I think in beauty and fashion, it's a lot of social status driven. And with food, there's certainly an element of that, especially in premium kinda better for you space. But ultimately, like, vast majority of consumers are are still making those decisions based off price, taste, and convenience versus buying a handbag. Right? That's, like, totally different.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:43:49
So But

Camilla Marcus - 00:44:01
I would say the taste and convenience is, again, convenience is a choice if grocery stores putting it in or not. So that's solvable. Taste, regenerative food does taste better. I mean, it's not only better for you and higher nutritional value, but it does, on a blind taste test, taste vastly better. I think and, again, price is something that's gonna have to be sort of a public private partnership at some point. Right? The more you know, I say to even grocery stores when we talk to buyers. I'm like, look. Right now, we're not in 5,000 stores. We're working on it.

Camilla Marcus - 00:44:26
But the more stores we get into, the more that we can pass savings on to consumers. Like, it's a little chicken and egg, this conversation around price. And, again, I think, for me personally, I also believe a lot of this narrative around price and premium and out of reach and not accessible is what big food is putting a lot of dollars behind.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:44:54
Mhmm. I I also think there's something to be said that, like, your background as a chef makes me think about, which is I come from a large fresh produce distribution family business and it's like, beets are good. Broccoli is good. Mostly all just don't know how to cook it. And so if you have somebody that can actually prepare it well, which that's more of a fresh food thing than a CPG thing. But in CPG, it still is formulation. It's process, it's product design. There is basically getting it to the right form and function that makes it tasty, nutritious, etcetera.

Camilla Marcus - 00:45:24
Yeah. Totally. And, look, I think what you said, it's so interesting. I forgot earlier. You know, an anecdote I always like to share is when I started the restaurant, my very first meeting when I was conceiving this, I got to TJ Murphy who runs Bao d'Or on the East Coast, and they're one of the largest food distributors. Mhmm. And I sat down with him. He happened to live in the neighborhood, and I said, look. I am 700 square feet. Most distributors would give an f about us, but here's what I'm doing. Here's what I'm thinking about.

Camilla Marcus - 00:45:48
This is the impact we wanna make, and we also wanna bring brands that are doing things mindfully to New York that aren't here. Like, do you wanna be a partner? Because I really need someone who's, like we're not gonna be able to do it unless we punch above our weight class. Right? And the only way to do that is with a partnership like yours. They were all in.

Camilla Marcus - 00:46:06
They had actually converted their facility to be, completely carbon neutral and waste free. 4 years before that, they underwent this massive process. You know, and he was sort of like, look. If we can do it, anyone can. Right? Everyone talks about, like, it doesn't make economic sense, and we can't change how we're doing things.

Camilla Marcus - 00:46:24
And he was like, we just sat down and said the future of this company is being, you know, environmentally sound, and we are gonna figure out how to do it. And so, again, having seeing also that distribution is so key to that. So, like, we would want you know, we talked a lot about, like, juice, for example, juice in restaurants. If you're getting the produce from California, you're shipping it to New York, you're processing in New York, and then you're shipping it all over the country. It's just so many extra steps. Things like juice really need to come from where produce is grown. So, again, working through that with them, like, hey.

Camilla Marcus - 00:46:55
You're buying this company, but, really, you should be buying this one. One. And, you know, we would talk through, and I would blind taste test their buying team all the time. And I would say, if you don't pick the product that I'm telling you you should carry, great. And I'll buy whatever you want. But if you can't pick it in a blind taste test, no way. You have to swap.

Camilla Marcus - 00:47:17
So it really was I mean, TJ was one of the first big people, you know, I think, to take a big bet on us and, you know, to go through my crazy games of Thanks, TJ.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:47:35
Yeah. Bouders Bouders is awesome. They do they do great work.

Camilla Marcus - 00:47:39
But they show that big food can be different. Right? I mean, I think there's also this sense of to do things, quote, unquote, right, you have to be niche, and I don't agree with that at all. I mean, I do. You know? Again, investors ask me all the time, but, like, how big is this? And, like, how many times a day do you eat? What do you mean? It's huge. How is it any different than burger patties? Like, you think burger patties is a bigger business than a multi SKU food company.

Camilla Marcus - 00:47:54
Like, I don't understand. Like, how did we get here? You know, everyone thinks burger meat's gonna, you know, save the world. It's, like, beyond me. Again, as someone who's also in restaurants, I'm like, I don't know. That just cannot be the staple product.

Camilla Marcus - 00:48:11
I can't live my life thinking that that is really the staple product. I'm a probably get murdered by these companies. Sorry.

Kyle Krull - 00:48:24
No. Well, hopefully not. I

Camilla Marcus - 00:48:25
think you're going

Kyle Krull - 00:48:26
to do

Camilla Marcus - 00:48:26
it again. To those investors. Like I said, you know, you talk to these investors, and they, like, look at you know, and they'll say, but what's the scale? What's the unit economics? And I'm like, I'm confused. Like, these companies that you just gave a $100,000,000 on a business plan. Like, you gave them a $100,000,000 check on a deck. We are actually making products. My margins are actual. I am telling you the actual market size.

Camilla Marcus - 00:48:40
I mean, even avocado oil, I keep hearing from investors, oh, it's niche. Well, first of all, it's not even our only product. But even that alone, the global cooking market cooking oil market is massive, and most are no longer able to be bought. Right? Like, think about that. That whole market is still seed oils, canola oil, vegetable oil, things that our generation is never gonna touch.

Kyle Krull - 00:49:12
Right?

Camilla Marcus - 00:49:13
Like, my mom might have Wesson in her pantry, but you and I are never gonna buy that. That is a huge white space. They go, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But what's the avocado oil market? I'm like, but you're not understanding. The global market now has this huge space to fill, that there's only certain players that are gonna be able to do it. And somehow, like, that's not as big as burger meat. Like, I don't get it.

Kyle Krull - 00:49:37
It's tough. It's hard to say. You know? On one hand, I can sort of understand just having worked with so many different grocery buyers and understanding, like, what's the size of the TAM now versus the size of the TAM in 5, 10, 15, 20 years. And what they are often measured against is performance now and performance next year. So, unfortunately, those short term decision making windows force the perpetuation of the status quo, which makes it more difficult to spur change.

Camilla Marcus - 00:50:03
Well and then the funny thing is, right, again, you look at the dynamics in grocery. If you look at every major grocery report, including distributor reports, which obviously, like, I'm a data junkie. I love reading those. The top two trends over the last 5 years has been avocado oil and regenerative foods, and some are reporting a little bit on, like, moving away from plastic in food products. But then you talk to the buyer and you're like, wait. Wait. I'm confused.

Camilla Marcus - 00:50:27
Like, your company just posted, you know, multiple pages of research on how big the opportunity is, and then you're telling me that, like, you're not sure, you know, it's a growing category. It's like the right hand's just not documenting the left hand a lot of times.

Kyle Krull - 00:50:43
So Correct.

Camilla Marcus - 00:50:44
Need. But I will say I mean, yes. But I will say I do think and I hear I hear from Costco buyers. I hear from major buyers that they understand that regenerative is where it's going. It may not be today, but it certainly is tomorrow, and I think they're getting smart to it personally.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:51:03
Yeah. Agreed. It's like the I I think it's known at the top level, but it just hasn't filtered down into a into intelligence that can be activated by those category decision makers that are, like, actually making the day to day buying decisions yet. And there's lots of fun ways we could talk about potentially changing that slash I think all of us are working on in some capacity.

Camilla Marcus - 00:51:23
Well, for example, what's interesting is actually the cookbook has changed a lot of their minds, which is fascinating because they don't buy cookbooks. So I'm sort of like, it's funny that this product that will never be on shelves has actually come people around from, like, okay. If I guess the theory is if a publisher took a chance on this, if this is in, you know, stores around the country, then maybe there's something to it.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:51:47
And you guys just landed Fresh Market, right, with the avocado oil? 1st First National chain?

Camilla Marcus - 00:51:51
By the way, holiday launched the same week as the cookbook and Fresh Market, all 163 stars. Go. K. I would say things happen for days, good and bad, and we were like, woah. Okay. October is crazy. Yeah. It's been exciting. I mean, they have been just such an amazing partner.

Camilla Marcus - 00:52:06
I feel like they really believe in food and chefs for sort of all the right reasons, and we've been really excited. I mean, it's a big you know, that first that first big distribution step is massive and a beast, you know, to get there, but we're super, super excited, and they've been amazing partners to us.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:52:29
Yeah. And can you tell the audience about the holiday bundle y'all are selling? I feel like that's the perfect encapsulation to, like, understand Westbourne and, like, the region story behind Westbourne.

Camilla Marcus - 00:52:37
Thanks. Yeah. So, you know, again, I think trying a lot of what we do think about is gifting, and I think that's again how you sort of get in the zeitgeist is, like, someone who knows I would say, like, pay it forward. Right? Like, if you if you buy a regenerative product in your house and then you bring it over as, you know, a gift to your friend who's having you for dinner, that's gonna then pay that knowledge forward. So this holiday season, we wanted to start with sort of a regenerative morning. So it's and it's all really in our LA community. So I called a bunch of friends who care about what we care about, are on the same regenerative mission, and I said, what if we put together a box so that the whole country could experience what we know, and everyone can really see how spectacular these products are even more so, right, than what they're used to.

Camilla Marcus - 00:53:07
So Cafe Telegram are run by 2 Angelinos that are pals. They source with Canyon coffee, from a regenerative farm. So it's regenerative coffee. We did a butter with the Ecology Center with their summer strawberries and a little bit of chili, little little slice of heat at the back end, and then we brought back. So we've always done this pancake and waffle mix since the restaurant days. It was an item on our menu. I used to laugh.

Camilla Marcus - 00:53:44
People would have it for dinner, waffles and wine, and it always made me laugh. So it's all it really is. Well, it's all made with cover crops. And that one was actually cool. We were looking for buckwheat flour. We found an incredible regenerative source, but it failed the gluten free test with our facility, which is a I was like, what? Gluten, like, buckwheat is gluten free.

Camilla Marcus - 00:54:05
Like, wherever they're milling in, obviously, across contamination. So I also love these stories where you're like, in the 25th hour. Right? Nothing ever goes as planned, and you always have that last minute, like, oh my god. Why is this happening? So we're, like, weeks away from having to package, and we don't have a buckwheat source because it failed the gluten free test, which we just never thought you know, it wasn't a contingency plan.

Camilla Marcus - 00:54:26
Like, I would never think that. So I was randomly on the phone with someone at Mad Agriculture, which is a big organization that we love, that we've supported for a long time, and I just I'm obsessed with what they're doing. And I said, like, what are you know, we were just chit chatting. He had no idea what we're doing for holiday, and I said, like, what are some cool companies you're tracking? Like, what are you thinking about? What are products that, like, maybe people aren't using or byproducts that we could think about product development for? He was like, actually, like, do you need buckwheat flour?

Camilla Marcus - 00:54:56
And I, like, dropped the phone. I was like, what did you say? And he's like, you need buckwheat flour? And I was like, you are choking me. So turns out this company in Los Angeles, Little Bucks, one of the byproducts of their snacks is leftover buckwheat that they've been grinding, and they don't do anything with. So I was like, great. We'll take £50. Send it our way. Swear.

Camilla Marcus - 00:55:21
And that was literally in a matter of, like, 5 days of from the gluten gluten free failure test to, like, when we had to get this all mixed. So it's the pancake and waffle mix, cover crop mix, and then, Westbourne pure avocado oil.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:55:41
Yeah. I was so fired up when I saw the little low, little buck shout out on Instagram. I'm an investor in they're in our trade association, and we know them super well. So Are

Camilla Marcus - 00:55:48
you dead at superfoods. Literally goes, do you have anything you need for buckwheat flour? And I was like, are you, like, tapping my phone? You know, if you want email run, I love them. I love the founder, and they were laughing too. They're like, you want how much buckwheat flour? I was like, can we get it tomorrow? Like, how it was a Friday afternoon. I was like, I know you're probably trying to check out, but, like, we need to pick it up next week. It was really just so funny and kiss me.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:56:18
But we love Little Box.

Camilla Marcus - 00:56:19
I didn't know you were involved in Little Box. That's so funny.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:56:22
Yeah.

Camilla Marcus - 00:56:22
I know our region world is very small.

Kyle Krull - 00:56:24
It is indeed,

Anthony Corsaro - 00:56:25
but growing but growing.

Camilla Marcus - 00:56:27
But growing indeed. It was so I mean, I would say for every product we've developed, for every specialty thing we've done, there's always that, like, 25th hour, you know, thing that falls through that you're like, why is this so hard? There's just always something. So I think for us, our biggest thing is just we have an amazing village of people, and we've leaned on them so many times, and we always figure it out really through. We get asked by that a lot with investors. They're like, is the supply chain scalable? How do you find things? What's going on? I said, look.

Camilla Marcus - 00:56:55
Everyone's a phone call away. And because we're all on the same mission, it just works differently. It's not it's not commodity. It's not a trade. It's not transactional. There's something more in it, and it does make, you know, the supply chain more defensible in that way.

Camilla Marcus - 00:57:12
Like, it's more it's hard to explain to investors that it's more relational. Like, it's not just about the highest bidder. Mhmm.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:57:25
I have a dumb avocado oil question.

Camilla Marcus - 00:57:27
There are nothing

Anthony Corsaro - 00:57:28
What's the difference between what's the difference between a finishing oil and a cooking oil?

Camilla Marcus - 00:57:33
Alright. Well, I will tell you, but also we have a blog. It's called field notes on our website. We post all about these things because we get a lot of the same questions. So the finishing oil, think of for cold. So it's anything cold. Dressings, dipping. Actually, it's amazing over ice cream. I Wow. I hosted a 30 person dinner last night for a brand, and we did chocolate pudding.

Camilla Marcus - 00:57:47
We gave everyone fresh whipped cream and then drizzled the extra virgin over it with a little smoked sea salt. So Wow. Anything cold. Again, dressings, dipping. Honestly, I put it over yogurt and granola in the morning too. It's incredible.

Camilla Marcus - 00:58:07
And then the cooking is really, like I always say it's, like, not your mom's Weston vegetable oil, and that was a big inspiration. Like, I grew up my mom used Weston with everything, like

Kyle Krull - 00:58:20
Yeah.

Camilla Marcus - 00:58:20
Pancakes, baking. So that's the other thing that the pure the cooking oil that's a I mean, both are pure, but we call it a 100% pure. And that's actually an interesting lesson. It started out as refined. And when we first launched the avocado oil, we had a bigger bottle, which intimidated people. So we moved to a smaller bottle as, like, the entry point. But I cook. Obviously, I'm a chef, so I was like, I want the biggest bottle ever because I rip through cooking oil. That is not true for American Homes.

Camilla Marcus - 00:58:40
They would rather buy 12 smaller bottles than have a bigger bottle. We learned some more. We learned the hard way. So we moved to the smaller bottle, and it was interesting. The extra virgin was selling 2 x more than the cooking oil, which was interesting because it's much more expensive. I always call it green gold.

Camilla Marcus - 00:58:56
It is, like, the most incredible thing you've ever tasted. Super premium. So I was shocked. I was like, wow. It's really outperforming, and it's kinda surprising. It's, like, less use cases technically. Right? You cook things on your stove a little bit more than you're drizzling something. Right? Mhmm. And so we're sort of like, okay.

Camilla Marcus - 00:59:12
Wonder if it's the name because we called it refined, which is what it is. And I sort of thought, like, refined meaning posh. But I think people think of refine like, an oil refinery. Like, I think that word refinery was almost like the opposite of the goal. So we shifted it. We called it a 100% pure. 1 week, complete shift to now our pure is 2 x the cooking oil compared to the extra virgin in 1 week.

Camilla Marcus - 00:59:39
That name change, and making it smaller was like a game changer. So the cooking, I always say sweet savory. It's the all around everything. It's super neutral. It's a one for one substitute for butter. You can completely bake with it. It doesn't. Unlike other oils, you won't taste it, which I think people are surprised by.

Camilla Marcus - 00:59:58
It doesn't you know, they're sort of like they think it's gonna be vegetal, but it's really not. It's super, super smooth. Saute, bake, grill, fry. It has the highest smoke point of anything on the market. And, again, I think the benefit is that it has this really buttery kind of flavor, so it sort of scratches that itch.

Anthony Corsaro - 01:00:27
Now you're speaking my language.

Camilla Marcus - 01:00:29
Not your mom's Wesson Not your mom's gut oil.

Anthony Corsaro - 01:00:31
We're so here for the Wesson oil slander. That was right in my pantry too.

Camilla Marcus - 01:00:35
Go on. Disgusting. By the way, like, no knock on them. They're amazing. Like, they built an incredible company, but it is funny. Like, you know, I just I tease my mom all the time about it. I'm like, man, like, you basically gave us jet fuel. Like, think about it. We thought we were you know, we had we were the house that had, like, all organic from missus Gooch's made in this, like, jet fuel. I mean, it's crazy.

Anthony Corsaro - 01:00:55
Healthy we used to have healthy vegetable stir fry with vegetables and, like, chicken strips in in goestined oil. It's like

Kyle Krull - 01:01:01
But

Camilla Marcus - 01:01:01
I would say it's no different than all this cellular food. Like, we're telling ourselves we're helping, and we care about the shoes we bought. Right? People are paying 2 x for their sneakers, and they're eating food that's poisoning them. Like, I don't understand it. It's wild.

Kyle Krull - 01:01:20
It is a cultural problem, and I think it's interesting that you keep bringing up the the zeitgeist. And, it's a question I've been asking myself for for years since I started my regenerative journey. I think I see the same. It's like, how do we get people to understand, and care about this stuff? And I think it's been a really interesting conversation because to me, that that really is, like, the unlock. Right? If we can get people to understand that what they're purchasing actually makes a monumental difference in their own health and planetary health, like

Camilla Marcus - 01:01:45
Well, it's interesting given, like, you know, a lot of the reason why avocado oil also is the supply chain. Avocado trees are most often co planted with coffee and chocolate. The number 1 and number 2 crop in the world, coffee, chocolate, which is why a lot of early stage regenerative farms, like, you know, 1st generation of these, a lot were in coffee and chocolate because of that, because they knew that there was a massive market. So we were so excited. It was a product I'd wanted to do anyway, and that really coalesced with regenerative farms at scale have avocados, but it's not their primary business. They just have them. So even thinking about those little pockets so I tell people. Right? Like, start with your coffee. It's one of the reasons we did the holiday box.

Camilla Marcus - 01:02:22
Like, you can actually buy regenerative coffee tomorrow. It's one of the, you know, most proliferated in this industry is coffee to date. Start with your morning coffee. That makes a huge impact. Just start there. You know, I tell people I love when I speak, I ask the audience, like, raise your hand if you make rice once a week. 90% of hands go up.

Camilla Marcus - 01:02:42
Mhmm. Lundberg Farms.

Kyle Krull - 01:02:51
Mhmm.

Camilla Marcus - 01:02:52
All their rice is regenerative. Like, think about it. You could just switch the goddamn bag you buy at the grocery store, and you've just had a massive impact on something you make once a week at staple. Milk. Alexandra, regenerative milk. I buy it for my kids. Like, they're all you have to do is go like, it's that simple. You know, I love you For

Kyle Krull - 01:03:14
those listening,

Camilla Marcus - 01:03:14
she just shifted our names from buying

Kyle Krull - 01:03:16
one thing to buy the other thing. Yeah.

Camilla Marcus - 01:03:18
Like Yeah. Move your hand to the right and pull it out. Like, it's actually that simple. Like, when I give the rice example, I actually just got to meet one of the family members, and I was, like, almost full cry. I was like, I love what you guys are doing because you're making something that anyone can understand, and it is just a simple choice at the grocery store. Very simple.

Anthony Corsaro - 01:03:39
I I will have one chef related question I wanna ask you to to maybe reframe

Camilla Marcus - 01:03:43
I mean, the next one has to be a cooking or something. You're

Anthony Corsaro - 01:03:45
No. The You're This one's like that direct back to that driving change piece. Yeah. Like, what tools do we need to provide chefs? Because we have some cool there's some chefs, like, doing some really cool work with regenerative. There's some really cool, like, regenerative call outs on some menus at some restaurants. But, like, what else are we as the people trying to boost regenerative, like, not giving chefs? Like, how can we better support chefs to support us?

Camilla Marcus - 01:04:08
I mean, my goal in 2025 is to get every chef Westbourne in their in their cooking. Mhmm. You know, cooking with our oils. What are we not giving chefs? I don't I actually look at it personally the other way. I actually think chefs are leading this charge. I actually think chefs fully understand what makes a regenerative farm, why it's better. I mean, I think chefs fly to quality. Right? Like, they're looking for the best fill in the blank, and I think they actually were early in understanding that that's regenerative, personally.

Camilla Marcus - 01:04:35
I don't know that we're not giving them what they need. Although I will say we get a lot of inquiries. We're gonna move into food service as well next year. We get a lot of inquiries. Like, you know, I use olive oil, but I'm it's not for every, you know, use case of what we're doing. We need an all around.

Camilla Marcus - 01:04:53
We don't like using canola oil anymore. You know, guests are starting to ask what it is. Right. You know, do you guys have something for restaurants to use it, you know, day in and day out? So I do see that being a big opportunity. I see a lot of restaurants really trying to make their sort of everyday. Right? Again, it's a high frequency, high use product.

Kyle Krull - 01:05:20
Mhmm.

Camilla Marcus - 01:05:20
They're willing to pay. Right? They can't break the bank because it's not the same as, like, what they're paying for their, you know, steak on the menu. But Right. I think I would also say I encourage restaurants and chefs, one, to really think about food waste and menu design and not seeking you know, I would like to see more, you know, respect and admiration for restaurants that don't have, like, the perfectly shaved carrot that, you know, threw out half of it. And also continuing to have more attention for plant based, you know, menus. Like, I say I cook for a lot of big brands and do, you know, massive activations at a super high level, and I always say to that. Like, I did one recently for Otomeres, the the watch company. They came to LA to launch the women's watch. And, like, the final tasting, they were like, oh, so you're gonna put you'll maybe put salmon on this. Right? And I said, no.

Camilla Marcus - 01:06:08
Like, we're gonna have an entirely plant based meal, and I promise you it'll knock your socks off. Like, trust me. We need to shift this, like, posh and fancy has to have, you know, a piece of fish, a steak. Like, can we make vegetables something that is super special and super interesting using, you know, all kinds of biodiversity, using fruits and vegetables that people aren't always thinking about that are new. And I think continuing to sort of push that and show with our dollars what restaurants we go to. You know, I'll tell I love when, like, sustainability minded you know, companies will then host a dinner at a restaurant that, like, doesn't care about sustainability.

Camilla Marcus - 01:06:47
You're sort of like, you had a choice of where you spent that $75,000. Like Mhmm. Why not vote that with a restaurant who's actually thinking about it? So I think a lot of it too is aligning your values with all of your purchases, not just your sneakers.

Anthony Corsaro - 01:07:10
Mhmm. Camilla, this has been super fun. Really appreciate it. Learned a lot. Love your passion and energy that you're bringing. We'll ask you our final question that we ask everybody, which I think we've been talking about the whole episode. So I'll be interested to see what we can add to it. But how do we get regen brands at 50% market share by 2050?

Camilla Marcus - 01:07:30
Oh, gosh. I hope it happens way before 2050. I was like, I thought you were gonna say 2030. We need to adjust that to 2030. How are we gonna do it? Again, I would sort of say my call to action is to every person listening to this, to every person who consumes food, which is everyone. Make one decision. Decide that one thing in your regular rotation is gonna be regenerative and just start there. I think if every single person bought one product and they chose to make it regenerative, like I said, could be your cooking oil. It could be your rice.

Camilla Marcus - 01:07:57
It could be your snack. It could be anything in your regular rotation that you buy at the grocery store. Buy 1. And I would also say, ask the grocery store. Hey. Why don't you have more regenerative brands? Hey. Why don't you have more regenerative brands?

Kyle Krull - 01:08:20
The

Camilla Marcus - 01:08:20
more that people I think people really underestimate, and I don't think they realize, like, actually, that matters. Like, the people in the store that are asking you if you need help, who are restocking, who are merchandising, they are the eyes and ears of the buyers, and it actually does make a difference. Understood. And then I'd say, like, post about it. I mean, look. We live in a social media world. It's kind of amazing how much grocery buyers, right, they care about your social media presence.

Camilla Marcus - 01:08:42
They so much social media content is around where people are shopping in a grocery store and what's in their basket and their unboxing. So I would also say to someone, you know, everyone listening, make one decision and then also tell someone about it. Talk about it. Bring it over to a friend's house. Make a point to share what you're doing. You'd be amazed to see how contagious that is.

Kyle Krull - 01:09:09
But we're not I love that answer. And what what is so cool about

Camilla Marcus - 01:09:12
Come on. That's a Starbucks play right there. I'm not buying that.

Kyle Krull - 01:09:16
What's what's the Starbucks play?

Camilla Marcus - 01:09:18
2050. That's way too far.

Anthony Corsaro - 01:09:21
Hey. We're I mean, we might have to make it 2030. We'll have to reevaluate.

Camilla Marcus - 01:09:25
That are trackable and quicker. 2050. I don't know. We might live on a new way then. Who knows?

Anthony Corsaro - 01:09:31
Possible. We'll we'll reevaluate.

Kyle Krull - 01:09:33
But what I love about your answer is that there really is a regenerative brand for just about every single category today. I can't say that they're all widely available or nationally available, but to to make that decision is not unrealistic at all.

Camilla Marcus - 01:09:45
With you. They are. We have the Internet. I hear that also all the time.

Kyle Krull - 01:09:50
Totally true.

Camilla Marcus - 01:09:50
You have the worldwide web. It is de facto nationally available today. Like, there are no excuses. We don't live in a world where you can't get anything. All of these brands ship online. Every single one.

Kyle Krull - 01:10:04
It's true. Even even the regenerative ice cream brand ships online. You know? So no excuses. Yeah.

Camilla Marcus - 01:10:09
By the way, I really wanna do a collab with Alex if you're listening.

Anthony Corsaro - 01:10:13
We know I mean, we we know how to get you in touch with them, so that's no problem.

Camilla Marcus - 01:10:17
But that's also part of it. I mean, you asked too, how do you get it to be 50%. I think a lot of it too is more collaboration. So sorry. We're really gonna go on a tangent now. I keep saying too, like, you go to Expo West. I wanna see an entire lane of all the regenerative brands saying and I've tried to do this. We wanted to do it for Giving Tuesday, but we couldn't get enough people there. Like, we already decided what we're doing. Right?

Camilla Marcus - 01:10:36
Like, the more that we are a pack, I actually think the brands having this pack mentality will do a lot. I think if we all said, you know what? We wanna be on the same we're gonna share costs. We're gonna work together, and we're gonna take an entire lane. You better believe every report out of Expo West every grocery buyer is like regeneratives here. The problem is we're I think everyone is playing too much in their own game.

Camilla Marcus - 01:11:02
And, you know, it's one of the things I learned from restaurants that I think is very different than a CPG mentality. And, again, unpopular, perspective to some slash many investors. Hospitality companies all help each other. Like, people said, you know, with all the restaurant relief work that I did, they said, how do you do it? I go, we all know each other. We're all 2 degrees of separation, and we all help each other. What do you do with this company? Who's your accountant?

Camilla Marcus - 01:11:27
I we still have so many text message groups. Who's got a plumber? Who does fire you know, who's their fire consultant? You know, what contractor do you like? Everyone shares. CPG tends to be really much more cutthroat and competitive, but I actually think if Regen companies and brands took much more of a hospitality perspective, it's sort of like how you damn the man.

Camilla Marcus - 01:11:43
Right? You, like, have to create the moment together. I would like to see Regen brands deciding for Earth Month. Right? Like, if we all did a joint campaign, there's not that many right now. If everyone did a joint campaign, you would see such a tidal wave.

Camilla Marcus - 01:12:01
And I think you would get much more media attention because they can't write us I think a lot of that narrative right now is, like, it's niche. First of all, it's actually not niche, and there's a ton of companies that are big that are very successful across all industries. It's not niche, but, again, that's what they want consumers to believe. That's what they want CPG founders to think. It's like big food getting in your head. It's Tesla getting in your head. That doesn't make it real.

Camilla Marcus - 01:12:33
But I do think even, like, on the tactical sense, I would like to see much more, collaboration and and coming together to make a bigger moment. Like, I just think that would change, like I said, Expo West. Think about it. If one full lane was a regen moment, you better believe that would be the top trend that came out of that report.

Kyle Krull - 01:12:59
Well, AC and I have been spirking this whole time because you're basically, like, validating our exact theory of change and the work that we've been doing for the last 3 years is getting more collaboration within regenerative CPG. Yeah. So would love to hear Yeah.

Camilla Marcus - 01:13:13
I wanna do Alex. I wanna get ice cream, you know, everywhere. And, again, even those things, like, we did a partnership with Patagonia Provisions for holiday with the cookbook. We did a little, you know, gift box for them. I happen to be friends with the provisions team, but we talk regularly. Like, where are you going? What are you doing? What's your struggle? What are you thinking about? Right? Like, that stuff is better. Right? The more that we are helping each other, the more, hey.

Camilla Marcus - 01:13:30
I know this grocery buyer. Oh, this is what they told me. This is what they're charging me. Did you get, you know, did you get half refill? Did you get full refill? Like, we got The best thing we can do, I think, for our impact and for our future is to start to work really, really closely together.

Anthony Corsaro - 01:13:58
Yeah. Well, I feel a lot better about the work that we're doing in our new trade association because I think we're working on every single thing you've listed, and it sounds like Westbourne's gonna be a great new member in 2025.

Kyle Krull - 01:14:08
So I'm more

Camilla Marcus - 01:14:09
than worth that. We're in. It's just so much. This was so fun. I could talk for hours hours more.

Kyle Krull - 01:14:15
It's been super, super cool. I wanna drive all of the listeners to the website. It's westborne.com, to check out the holiday gift box and the avocado oils and all the other cool things on the site. And thank you again so much for

Camilla Marcus - 01:14:27
the time. Share with a friend, send it to a friend. Mhmm.

Kyle Krull - 01:14:30
You

Camilla Marcus - 01:14:30
know, again, pay it forward is the name of our game.

Anthony Corsaro - 01:14:35
Thanks, Camilla. Appreciate you. For transcripts, show notes, and more information on this episode, check out our website regen-brands.com. That is regen-brands.com. You can also check out our YouTube channel, ReGen Brands, for all of our episodes with both video and audio. The best way to support our work is to give us a 5 star rating on your favorite podcast platform and subscribe to future episodes on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and YouTube. You can also subscribe to our newsletter, the Regen Brands Weekly, and follow our Regen Brands LinkedIn page to stay in the know of all the latest news, insights, and perspectives from the world of regenerative CPG. Thanks so much for tuning in to the ReGen Brands Podcast. We hope you learned something new in this episode, and it empowers you to use your voice, your time, your talent, and your dollars to help us build a better and more regenerative food system. Love you guys.