#97 - Will & Jenni Harris @ White Oak Pastures

Episode Recap:

ReGen Brands Recap #97 - The Original Regenerative Brand - (RECAP LINK)

Episode Transcript:

Disclaimer: This transcript was generated with AI and is not 100% accurate.

Kyle Krull - 00:00:13
Welcome to the ReGen Brands Podcast. This is a place for brands, retailers, investors, and other food system stakeholders to learn about the consumer brands supporting regenerative agriculture and how they're changing the world. This is your host, Kyle, joined by my cohost, AC, who's gonna take us into the


Anthony Corsaro - 00:00:33
episode. On this episode, we are joined by Will and Jenni Harris from White Oak Pastures, which may very well be the original and very first regenerative brand. White Oak Pastures is a 160 year old zero waste regenerative farm that raises 10 species of animals living in symbiotic relationships with each other and the land. Starting in 1995, the farm transitioned away from industrial agriculture techniques and began operating their farm as a living ecosystem. As a brand, White Oak has been a pioneer in American grass fed beef production, selling both Publix and Whole Foods their very first domestic supplied grass fed beef over a decade ago. Today, White Oak operates a myriad of businesses at their home ranch in Bluffton, Georgia with a team of 160 people, and their products are sought out by customers in 48 of the 50 states. In this episode, Will shares his journey from industrial cattlemen to regenerative innovator. Jenni details how the business has shifted from grocery to ecommerce, and both of our guests share their story with their trademark transparency, humility, and southern charm.


Anthony Corsaro - 00:01:34
Will and Jenni highlight the need for consumer driven change in agriculture. Jenni shares how being on the Joe Rogan experience has affected their business, and Will takes us behind the scenes of producing his book, A Bold Return to Giving a Damn. We were honored to have them join us and really enjoyed the conversation. We hope you do too. Let's dive in. What's up, everybody?


Anthony Corsaro - 00:01:56
Welcome back to another episode of the ReGen Brands Podcast. Very excited today to have what may be the original the the the first Regen brand of all time. Maybe. I I think it is. We have Will and Jenni Harris from White Oak Pastures joining us. So welcome, y'all. Thanks for being here.


Will Harris - 00:02:23
Thank you for having us.


Kyle Krull - 00:02:25
Yeah. We're super excited. Sorry to interrupt already, man. Off to a rough start. But, you know, when when I first started learning about regenerative agriculture in 2020, you know, White Oak Pastures was this, like, beacon of hope as an operation that was doing it right. So I'm really, like, truly personally thrilled to have you two both on the podcast today to learn about your operation and to share your story with our audience. For those who I mean, if anybody's listening to this podcast, I'd be shocked if you didn't know who White Oak Pastures was. But for our listeners who might not know, give us a quick, like, lay of the land. What sort of products do you produce, and where can people buy White Oak Pastures today?


Will Harris - 00:03:00
So White Oak Pastures is our family farm in Bluffton, Georgia, started by my great grandfather and, industrialized by my dad post World War two and, deindustrialized by me and my daughter, Jenni, now. So, we raise currently raise cows, hogs, sheep, goats, rabbits, poultry, organic vegetables, honey. We got a store. We got a restaurant. We got a lodging. We, and we have a lot of fun. We got about a 70 employees, largest private employee in the county.


Anthony Corsaro - 00:03:39
Yeah. Quite a few things going on over there. Just a couple.


Will Harris - 00:03:43
Lot of moving parts.


Kyle Krull - 00:03:45
Lot of moving animals too. Yeah.


Anthony Corsaro - 00:03:50
And where where can folks find your products today? I know y'all used to be really heavy grocery. Now you're doing more d to c. Like, what's that look like today?


Jenni Harris - 00:03:57
Yeah. So, half of our volume goes through our website, our ecommerce store, whiteoakpastures.com. The other half is still in grocery. Last year was the the first year that we kinda, balanced out with that fifty fifty, model b to b, b to c. The the grocery stores that we work with are grocery stores that we've been with for, you know, maybe two decades now. Publix Supermarket, Kroger, and the newest one, which is probably, maybe six years old is Four Seasons Produce, which serves mom's organics market Yes. In the Northeast. So huge fans. There are, you know, a few independent markets too many to name. We we try to do a good job on our social media calling everybody out.


Anthony Corsaro - 00:04:46
Love it. Yeah. I used to live in Florida, and I miss the the ease of just going into Publix and grabbing, the one pound, beef beef packs. But before we get too deep into conversation, Kyle and I have a ton of questions just about what's going on with the business right now. You know, we we'd like to hear maybe two origin stories. Will, you already mentioned kind of this this transition from conventional or industrial agriculture to regenerative. And then also, like, when did the brand itself, you know, was inseminated? So we'd love to have y'all just share both of those with our audience.


Will Harris - 00:05:19
So this farm was a 60 or 70 years old, and and my it just didn't all I always been called Tillock Oak Pastures, Tillock Oak Farm. And, Tillock Oak, nobody if you're not from Bluffton, Georgia knows what a Tillock Oak is, but Tillock Oak is the local colloquial name for White Oak. So when I was getting the the meat business started, I had, I was going to set it up as a a well, away from the farms, a separate subchapter s. So I went to see the lady who builds websites. This is this is about four websites. We're that common in rural South Georgia. And it was a the Baptist preacher's wife in her mobile home.


Will Harris - 00:05:59
And I went and and she finally got enough children put to bed that we could get to work on the kitchen table. And she said, okay. What are we gonna call them? With her laptop. I said, Tunk Oak Pastures. So how do you spell Tunk?


Will Harris - 00:06:11
I said, well, we spell it t e m a c. Some people spell it t e m a k. Let's go with t e m a c. She said, well, what what's a tonic oak? I said, it's white oak. She said, well, why don't you call it white oak pastures?


Will Harris - 00:06:27
I said because I said because it's been called tonic oak pastures for about a hundred and fifty years. Mhmm. He said, you won't spend the rest of your life spelling Tunk. White Oak White Oak Pastures.


Kyle Krull - 00:06:50
Done deal.


Will Harris - 00:06:51
So that's that's how that's how we got the the name. We we I was very industrial cattleman. I got disillusioned with that management style after twenty years, and I started moving away from it very rapidly, intentionally, and, this is where we wound up.


Kyle Krull - 00:07:13
Well, can I ask why you got disenfranchised with the industrial version of raising cattle?


Will Harris - 00:07:19
Yeah. I you know, I I the excesses of it bothered me. I was it's it's a, it's full of excesses and and I was an excessive person over and above the average. So Mhmm. You know, when I use if it said give them two cc's, I gave them four cc's. And if it said, put out a paint to the acre, I put out a quart to the acre. So I I think I probably saw the unintended consequences of those technologies better than people who were playing by the rules, and I didn't like it. And so I started moving away from it, and this is where we wound up.


Kyle Krull - 00:07:59
Then you became excessively regenerative and focused on soil to an excessive degree.


Will Harris - 00:08:07
You know, nobody's ever said that before, but that's exactly what I


Kyle Krull - 00:08:11
I love it. Yeah.


Jenni Harris - 00:08:14
He's he's he's excessive in in every direction. He doesn't know where to start a story or end a story or it's all it it went from being very linear to being very cyclical, very circular. And so there is no beginning and there is no end. So depending on what mood he's in, depends on what stories you're gonna get for the day.


Anthony Corsaro - 00:08:35
We like that. We like that. Where where did you turn initially to do something different? Was it complete trial and error? Did you read a book? Did you call somebody? Like, what what did you do initially?


Will Harris - 00:08:46
You know, I graduated from the University of Georgia, so reading a book was not an option. And, you know, sadly, when I started making my transition, I assumed I was the only person on the planet that was making that transition. You know, later on, I learned that Gabe Brown in North Dakota was doing the same thing the same day, and others, we shouldn't know each other. And, you know, we didn't have, cell phones. We didn't have computer service out here in the country. We you know, it was if you didn't read it in the paper, you just about didn't know about it. So I transitioned very independently and, a lot of trial and error and, a lot of trying to, you know, my family had been on this farm for a long time, and most of those legends were lost.


Will Harris - 00:09:26
But just trying things that I thought I understood that had been done previously and finally figured it out or figuring it out.


Kyle Krull - 00:09:52
And what what was it that you figured out or are continuing to figure out? Was it the rotational grazing aspect? Was it more time on pasture? Like, what did you start to learn, and and what did you see that that kind of made you feel like you were moving in the right direction?


Will Harris - 00:10:08
Yeah. Well, all of the above. I mean, so much so much of what I was doing was was wrong. Jenni mentioned earlier that the difference in linear and cyclical. Mhmm. Modern agriculture, post agriculture since World War two has been very linear. And then we can talk about that all day long. And, you know, agriculture as a as a nature is very cyclical. You know, the we talk about cycles of nature all the time. The water cycle, the from the rain, the energy cycle from the sun, the microbial cycle, the changing of the seasons, the energy. I know all of this.


Will Harris - 00:10:39
Everything is so cyclical. And I I you know, we had made it linear, my my dad, me, and the industry. And I just, moved away from that and and continued. And we're still moving away from it. We've you know, twenty five years later, we don't have it all figured out. We're still figuring it out and and learning every day still.


Kyle Krull - 00:11:17
Mhmm.


Anthony Corsaro - 00:11:18
When when was the inflection point to bring in the other species? So it sounds like you were cattle. It kinda just started with cattle, and then now you're doing, you know I forget how many you just listed, but it sounded like at least five.


Will Harris - 00:11:29
Yeah. I've never I love cattle then. I love them now. I never intended to bring anything else in. But, you know, back on that linear, I I had, aspired to have a monoculture of Tifton 85 bermuda grass in my pastures. Mhmm. Because it is a a great, recipient of a nitrogen fertilizer. You put the you you get a a soil copious quantities of nitrogen fertilizer, turn it into grazing for cattle. Mhmm. So if you were in my pasture and you weren't just 35 with mealy grass, I sprayed you with a herbicide or an insecticide or a fungicide.


Anthony Corsaro - 00:12:08
Wow.


Will Harris - 00:12:09
And then the cattle did great on it. But then when I gave up all those sides, I had all the stuff growing in the pasture that the cow didn't like. And I didn't use, herbicides, so I had to get rid of it. So I went to other species in order to do that.


Jenni Harris - 00:12:29
And I begged for sheep. I'll just interject that in February I was a a sophomore in high school, so that would have been, like, 02/2003. There was nothing cuter. I was not in love with cattle. You know? I mean, that was that was what he loved, and I I loved them and still love them, but I wanted something different. So I begged for sheep when I was in high school, and he heard that sheep preferentially graze what cattle leave behind. Cattle preferentially graze what sheep don't prefer. So he, he gave in to me, and we got, we got some sheep. And then that was, you know, again, the early two thousands.


Jenni Harris - 00:12:59
We introduced hogs in about 02/2012 because my brother-in-law, John, loved hogs. He wanted hogs. You know, got some goats, you know, poultry, and, now it now it looks a lot like Noah's Ark.


Kyle Krull - 00:13:24
Well, it sounds like the impetus was really to try to find different types of lawn mowing animals. Right? You've got your primary that's gonna get most of the grass, and you've got a sheep that's gonna get rid of some other stuff. At what point did it become, you know, like, hey. We wanna start a different enterprise, and there was a commercial upside to bringing in maybe poultry or hogs, you know, or or was it always just focused on, you know, what's gonna be best for the land?


Will Harris - 00:13:46
Yeah. It's always been for the what's best for the land, what the land needed, but you you are right that it it having these other species to provide other meat is is very desirable for our customer base. Anyway, we don't make any money in the poultry business. The poultry business is not profitable for us, but we wanna have poultry because people that buy our beef and pork and lamb want chicken and turkey and duck sometimes. So, it it it it all is, make no mistake. It's driven by what the cycles of nature was called for in the pastures. But we do have to be well, you have to be profitable. We we don't have any other source of income except what we sell to to people.


Anthony Corsaro - 00:14:38
Is is the challenges in poultry feed cost, labor cost, mortality rate? Like, what what what makes poultry so hard?


Will Harris - 00:14:47
When we industrialized, meat production, we took more cost out of poultry than we did out of the other species. You know, you know, I was raised we weren't church people, but I was raised understanding that the preacher came to eat Delaware on Sunday. You had chicken fried chicken. People today think that's because it's the cheapest way to feed the preacher, but that's not. It was the best thing you could feed the preacher. I went to, I went to this is that detracting and telling story, you know, that I went to a a meeting in Boulder, Colorado. I just spent a million dollars building the poultry plant. And I went to a meeting in Boulder, and, we were losing our ass in the poultry business.


Will Harris - 00:15:27
And then I I was, some folks came out and supper and we were meeting in the Boulder Rama Hotel. And there was a a menu on the wall. I still got a picture of it from, like, 1890 or something. And it said beef plate, 89¢. Pork plate, 99¢, poultry plate, a dollar and 30¢. So it was just


Anthony Corsaro - 00:16:03
Wow. And


Will Harris - 00:16:03
then when I saw it, I said, oh, shit. That's the problem. Right? Like because


Anthony Corsaro - 00:16:08
Yeah.


Will Harris - 00:16:08
When we in when we industrialized poultry, we took way more cost out of it than we did out of pork and then more out of it and then and beef.


Jenni Harris - 00:16:20
And my my dad, you should know, is a swing for the fence kind of guy. So instead of just going into the poultry business, he built a own farm USDA inspected processing plant, which was no, simple or cheap venture. And in doing so, we we overbuilt our capacity to process for a market that did not exist. Yeah. There weren't enough people that could afford pasture poultry at the level that we could raise and slaughter them, which meant that, you know, we we talk a lot about the three legs on the stool. There's, any good stool that's worth sitting on has at least three legs that are the same length. And those stools on a production food system like we have are production, processing, and sales.


Jenni Harris - 00:17:03
And so for us with regard to poultry, we had production and processing, but the third leg of the stool sales was much shorter than the other two. So our our nice stool was not balanced. It toppled over, and it it, ultimately was a very hard business for us to make work.


Will Harris - 00:17:30
And our our beef probably cost 25% more than industrial beef. Probably that's close. Pork is similar. It it our breakeven cost, reason poultry is probably $5 and something a pound. Am I right?


Jenni Harris - 00:17:45
On the a high fives.


Will Harris - 00:17:47
High fives. And, you know, that's that's way over twice as much, probably three times as much as industrial chicken. And, you know, consumers just push back on that. And I I get it. Oh, I don't wanna.


Kyle Krull - 00:18:01
Yeah. That makes sense. You know, if, if you're two x higher than the conventional cost just to break even, like, you know, who's gonna be willing to pay three x and and have you, you know, maintain that same level of margin? So difficult business. But I do think it's a good idea, especially because chicken is so widely consumed. It could be an entry point for somebody into the White Oak ecosystem, right, where they then learn about your practices and say, hey. Now I wanna buy pork, beef, whatever else. And, Will, to your point earlier, those who are already buying the beef or the pork or other animals are are gonna want chicken eventually.


Kyle Krull - 00:18:24
So keeps them in the ecosystem, which makes sense.


Will Harris - 00:18:35
Mhmm.


Anthony Corsaro - 00:18:36
I wanna go back to the first White Oak branded sale was what and happened because a buyer came to you all, you all realized you were differentiated and kinda needed a differentiated market. Like, what what was that what was that like?


Will Harris - 00:18:52
So when I first started moving away from the industrial model, which is truckloads of calves shipped to the Far West for for confinement feeding, which is what I did for a long time. I was I I I was changing changing things, and I didn't I I still didn't know how to grasp finished cattle. That's that's an art. And I I was pretty good cow guy, but I rely on, you know, corn, you know, to to put weight on them. So I was, selling grass fed beef, and then it just wasn't very good. I mean, I just couldn't it wasn't very good. But, tough and not fat.


Will Harris - 00:19:24
So I was grinding up the whole cow And so they're actually in ground beef, and it was really good ground beef. We we're grinding filets and tenderloins and, you know, the whole thing. It was good. We offered it for sale, and and, in my time, it was so, so lucky on that day. Not skilled, not smart, just lucky. But we started doing that about the time people were starting to talk about grass fed beef. And it was conversation, but nobody had any much.


Will Harris - 00:20:02
So, we sold, Whole Foods Market.


Jenni Harris - 00:20:15
Publix was first. The Publix


Will Harris - 00:20:16
was first. Yeah. We sold Publix Supermarket. The first pound of American American Grass Fed Beef that they marketed as American Grass Fed Beef and, Whole Foods followed and then the others. And it, it was just so lucky. I I wish I could say, yeah. I saw that coming and got ahead of it. That's not what I that not what I


Anthony Corsaro - 00:20:36
When when was that, Will?


Jenni Harris - 00:20:37
Like, 2010?


Kyle Krull - 00:20:39
'2 thousand


Anthony Corsaro - 00:20:40
'2. Two thousand '2. Okay. So it's really late. Wow. Wow. Yeah. Y'all y'all were definitely y'all were definitely early and and on time on that one.


Will Harris - 00:20:48
Another mistake I made is, you know, I probably had six, seven hundred mama cows. And when I converted, I converted. You know, I just and which meant I somehow thought I could sell a tremendous amount of grass fed beef when the market wasn't there. You know, I I it never occurred to me to downsize. I've been in all my life, it's been more, more, more, more, more. So I've it never crossed my mind till way after the fact. I said, shit. I should've cut back, but I didn't.


Jenni Harris - 00:21:17
You know, y'all are so interested in the are interested in the brand story, and I remember the first brochures that dad had made up about grass fed beef. And it was all the claims, you know, omega sixes and omega threes and linoleic acids and aminos. You know, I mean, it was really, really health focused on grass fed beef, the benefits of grass fed beef, which is which is logical. I mean, you know, everybody was talking about grass fed beef, not about white oak pastures. And so he went to a food show in, I don't know, the early two thousands, and he got on an elevator with a a foreign man and, you know, long elevator ride, probably very awkward. You everybody's had those elevator rides. And so Yeah. The guy got a brochure from dad and, and said, you know, do you want some unsolicited advice?


Jenni Harris - 00:22:02
And, you know, dad said, well, we got, you know, 20 floors left. I reckon I'm gonna hit it. He said, you know, you're you're working so hard to sell grass fed beef. People don't want grass fed beef. They wanna know you. They wanna know the farmer.


Jenni Harris - 00:22:17
You need to to help them focus on white oak pastures. And I think from that, from that day on, it was less about grass fed beef and more about a vertically integrated food system, you know, that that that goes back to the traditional methods of feeding your community.


Will Harris - 00:22:44
I've I've forgotten all about that. I I do more now. And he, he actually had the brochure in his pocket. I we've we've been on a food show. Wow. And we we got on and and, we we're going up and we reached his pocket and got my brochure out and said what she said. Basically, what he say it is, this is not good, and let me tell you what's wrong with it. And what she said is right. The other thing he said is, and you're making all these claims you know nothing about. Mhmm. And what I know about linoleumic acid, nothing. So Yeah.


Will Harris - 00:23:11
At that point, they, at my request, they tore our website apart and took out everything in it. It wasn't if it wasn't about animal welfare, which we're good at. Yeah. If it wasn't about, land management, which we're good at. Mhmm. And if it wasn't about this local rural economy, which which we're good at.


Will Harris - 00:23:36
If it wasn't about those three things, it had to come out of there. I don't care how true it is. It's not for me to say. I have no credibility.


Kyle Krull - 00:23:53
I love that authentic approach. And I also wanna thank thus far the two strangers who have given you guys great advice in these stories, you know, because that's his wife and the stranger in the elevator. Fantastic. I need to run into more of these strangers in my own life. That that'd be helpful.


Will Harris - 00:24:09
Yeah. You you need you gotta be humble. Yeah. I'm I I know I don't know shit about these things. And when somebody I never had a an original idea in my life. I but I I'll listen.


Kyle Krull - 00:24:22
Yeah. That's great advice. Jenni, you mentioned the vertical food system, and, you know, that's that's what we need. Right? And I'm curious to know it sounds like poultry processing is already taking place. What other processing have you all built into your system at White Oak?


Jenni Harris - 00:24:38
Yep. So on the, on the meat side of things, we slaughter cattle, goats, sheep, hogs, you know, and and seasonally some poultry. So that that's on the the proteins side of it. We also have a commissary kitchen where we make our own broths, you know, jerkies, pickled okra. We grow some figs and strawberries and things that we turn into jellies and jams. So that's our value addition kitchen. We also have a general store here in town, that we sell, you know, staples in addition to all the the things we raise and produce and cook. We've got a restaurant, where we cook 21 meals a week, three meals a day, seven days a week.


Jenni Harris - 00:25:20
We've got cabins or, townhouses where people can come and spend the night, grow some certified organic vegetables, harvest some really, really good honey, from our our orchard. And then we we make our own pet treats out of, hides and esophaguses and tracheas and things that people don't wanna eat. We dehydrate them for pets. Yeah. We make our own leather belts and bags out of, regenerative cattle hides. And then we make some skin care products. I'm actually 62. I know I only look 38.


Jenni Harris - 00:25:55
I'm really 38, and I look 48, but this is not this is my love for for our tallow because it I'm not aging backwards. I promise. Even talking about how great we were on this call, there's nothing that helps you focus on how old you look than a than a podcast. But, anyway, so we we make our own tallow skin care product. We make candles and soaps, large soaps, talus soaps, hand soaps, moisturizers, the whole nine.


Kyle Krull - 00:26:40
I it really is incredible, and it feels like every possible thing you could be making on your land you are, which is fantastic. And the vertical integration piece to me, it just feels really interesting because that feels really hard to do for any brand who's focusing on just one vertical, let alone the number of verticals you all have in your system. So when did it become apparent that you wanted to bring all of that processing in house, and why was that so important to White Oak?


Jenni Harris - 00:27:07
I can do that. So the you know, it was never there was no Harris that aspired to have a a skin care brand. It was a thing we're back on. You know what I mean? It it's it's like when we, complicated or, you know, made our system more complex, braiding layers and layers on top, it it was born out of a problem. Like, for Talos skin care, one of the things we didn't mention is that our plant, produces, you know, maybe eight tons of waste per day. You know, what a a typical commodity plant would would call a byproduct. You know, guts, bones, you know, digestive tracts, reproductive tracts, respiratory tracts.


Jenni Harris - 00:27:38
They're not marketable for human consumption. And so we compost it. We, you know, make a a, you know, a lasagna of carbaceous material with that really nutrient dense byproduct. And in a year or two, it's really great, organic soil amendment to increase the organic matter in our soil. But what does not compost well is fat. Fat forms an impermeable layer that doesn't allow rainwater to penetrate or vegetation, you know, to grow.


Jenni Harris - 00:28:14
And so it's it was it was less about wanting to be in a vertical and more about dealing with a problem and creating a a making a negative a positive. You know, in terms of compost, fat's a negative. The fat's really not a negative. You know, today, tallow is one of the the, most sought after products that we sell. And we're we're currently making the decision. Do we wanna keep making candles, or do we need, you know, to produce a fattier ground beef?


Jenni Harris - 00:28:46
Because, you know, they're they're they're, you know, they're they're pulling from the same ingredients. So, I think that that farms can't really focus on wanting to be at a vertical, but dealing with what you've got.


Kyle Krull - 00:29:04
Makes a lot of sense. And, yeah, I think that's an interesting question right now. You know, Tallow is is so hot right now, to quote Zoolander. But I think it's a it's an interesting problem to have. Like, we we've got, you know, five or six different tallow products. You know, where should we be utilizing our tallow? And in my mind, like, the skin care line or, you know, maybe b two b as a fat, it is the right play. You know, I think that you might get a higher premium there. So interesting problems to have.


Kyle Krull - 00:29:24
And to your point, you know, good on you all for identifying those problems and turning them into commercial value.


Will Harris - 00:29:35
Mhmm. When they, discovered that fat didn't compost well, we spent a bunch of money for a,


Jenni Harris - 00:29:42
Biodiesel converter.


Will Harris - 00:29:44
Biodiesel converter. And, I'll give it to you if you want. Do I


Kyle Krull - 00:29:50
have to come pick it up before you ship it?


Will Harris - 00:29:54
I probably ship it.


Kyle Krull - 00:29:55
Yeah. I


Will Harris - 00:29:55
I really can't do it. And, you know, it it never it never worked very well, but we we weren't trying to save money on diesel. We were trying to get rid of that fat that now is we we run out of. It's it's incredible. Mhmm. I I


Anthony Corsaro - 00:30:11
would love to hear y'all talk about working with other brands. That has evolved over time. Right? Sounds like commodity into kind of everything was was white oak branded. I know you've worked with some other brands. I don't know what the current status of of that is, but, like, can you talk about that journey and where you think that's going?


Jenni Harris - 00:30:28
You know, for for us, there was a time where we needed for other brands to help us turn trim or ground beef into a snack bar or into a jerky. Post COVID, we've been really blessed to to be able to take a lot of that volume and sell it as White Oak Pastures branded products. So we we work with fewer other brands today than we have ever in the past. Now there are still, you know, really great ones out there. Fond, broth is fine. Some fat from us and some bones, You know, we we've worked with, let's see, figure eight foods, you know, for some biltong jerky. There there are really good people out there, but, you know, for us, part of our brand growth, was was being able to mature and and sell it under our brand and not someone else's.


Will Harris - 00:31:24
Mhmm.


Anthony Corsaro - 00:31:25
Jenni, when you came back to the business, how how much of the things that we've just listed off here recently existed, and how much has just been since you rejoined the business?


Jenni Harris - 00:31:35
When I came back to the business, we only had the red meat processing plant. There was not poultry plant, none of the ancillary, you know, the garden. I'm not responsible for introducing all that. That that's not saying that when I came back, all that other shit started to happen. That is literally not. I'm the one blessed enough to be in a position to talk to y'all today to represent that hard work that's happened, but that was not me. You know, I I talk a lot about when I came back, the business did not need me. I needed the business. Now so let me know.


Jenni Harris - 00:32:00
Dad's role was that you have to work off the farm for a year before you return back to work for your daddy. And so I did my three hundred and sixty five days off the farm and came back. And, you know, the business was profitable. I couldn't cut meat. I I wasn't Will Harris. I suck at accounting. You know, graphic design is not my thing. Not a great writer.


Jenni Harris - 00:32:23
You know, I mean, really didn't have many skills, and so I was really blessed to have a dad who allowed me to be an apprentice. You know? I'm not a lot of things, but in that list is also lazy. I came to work every single day. And if he came in at five, I was here at five. If he didn't leave until eight, hell, I left today. You know, it's fine.


Jenni Harris - 00:32:48
You know, I've I've I've, but it it was a great opportunity for me. Not that I was doing one of the pastors any favors, but I was doing myself the favor of being Will Harris' apprentice. And he allowed me to draw a paycheck to do that for a couple of years, honestly, a couple of years before I, you know, really formed what is my contribution, which is, you know, the the website and direct to consumer marketing. That's what I love. I love our wholesale partners. They do a great job for us. They serve a a really great need.


Jenni Harris - 00:33:21
But the, the fun and all the levers, you know, of triggering all things and call the actions and watching things happen exist in that direct to consumer marketing.


Will Harris - 00:33:38
Yeah. Ginny's a little hard on herself with that explanation.


Anthony Corsaro - 00:33:41
Yeah. Yeah.


Will Harris - 00:33:43
The fact is that, when I ran this as a as just a cattle farm, there was one decision maker on the farm and that was me. And I had three or four whatever, minimum wage employees that did what I told them to do, and that was fine. I didn't need any management help. As I grew the business, we added more and more and more, components to it, more aspects. And I needed some management, and I I I wasn't very good at delegating that and then and bringing in other people. So I


Anthony Corsaro - 00:34:22
Yeah.


Will Harris - 00:34:23
And so he he reached four hours, managing people all day long and not seeing about my business. And we started, a little bit before she got here, we started adding a little bit of complexity to it and then and having managers and people working for people that wouldn't will. And by the time she got here, I had a need for more of those people. And then, well, she, you know, she was, what, 20 year 20 years old, young, and she had to she had to learn some stuff. So she's been hard on herself, but she's used contributor from day one. But she, had to learn how to manage manage people. And and, today, we've got six or seven directors. I'm one. Jenni's one.


Will Harris - 00:35:04
Other other family members and non family members are directors that manage about 20 managers that manage about a 50 or whatever's left employees.


Anthony Corsaro - 00:35:22
Wow.


Will Harris - 00:35:22
We've got we've got we've got a lot of structure, but we had to go from one one guy to what we do now, and it it was a little painful. And Jenni Jenni's very and not not she's not the only one, but she's one of the people that was very instrumental and influential in getting that done.


Kyle Krull - 00:35:43
Well, if there's anything I'm learning about the Harris family on today's podcast, both of you, you know, as Jenni is telling her humble story of learning how to contribute, Will's sitting there shaking his head like, no. No. No. That's not true. And as Will is talking about Jenni's contributions from day one, she's sitting there shaking her head like, no. No. No. That's not true.


Kyle Krull - 00:35:52
So humility for the self seems evident, and the ability to see value in others seems evident. So I think those are both fantastic qualities to have. I appreciate, you just just seeing that observing that in the in the podcast has been fun.


Will Harris - 00:36:13
Mine goes before the fall.


Kyle Krull - 00:36:16
Yeah. No doubt. Mhmm. Well, you've mentioned the land management piece a few times, and I wanna kinda double click into the agronomy of what's happening on the farm. And I am not a farmer. I know next to nothing about farming. I'm lucky to be on this podcast to try to learn out loud from people like you. Help me understand, like, how many animals rotate on the same piece of land? Does it start with cattle for x period of time, then it goes to sheep, then it goes to poultry? Like, what does the rotation look like, and why is there a specific order of how it works?


Will Harris - 00:36:46
There's a lot of complex that's a good question. There's a lot of complexity to it. So this farm that we're sitting on here is 3 acres, and it's divided up into about a 50 or so, 30 ish acre potteryx. And it and and it was predominantly a cow farm. He's grown exclusively a cow farm for many years, and that's still predominantly a cow farm. But we have, basically three herds of cattle. One are calving herd, a summer calving herd, and a finishing herd. That's not exactly true.


Will Harris - 00:37:14
There's some little variations from that, but that's basically the way it works. And and and generally, every herd gets moved to another another paddock every single day. So, a paddock is grazed about every fifty days roughly and is grazed for one day, and then the animals will move. It'll be fifty days before they come back.


Jenni Harris - 00:37:49
Specifically cattle.


Will Harris - 00:37:50
Specifically specifically cattle. That's what we're talking about. Good point. Good point. That's cow. When I first start I'm I'm a little cow guy. So when I first started in those species, I tried to make them fit that cattle model. Yeah. And it didn't it didn't work. You know how you've heard of cattle drives from Yeah. Mexico to Canada?


Anthony Corsaro - 00:38:12
Yeah. Mhmm.


Will Harris - 00:38:13
You ever heard of a chicken drive from Mexico to Canada?


Kyle Krull - 00:38:17
I have not.


Will Harris - 00:38:20
And that's because it doesn't work. And I tried to make it work, and I I I just about ran off all the good help I had


Jenni Harris - 00:38:28
And putting me.


Will Harris - 00:38:29
Trying to make it work. And I finally, saw that it don't work. So now that the that is the the other species are moved and they move regularly, but it's it it it's, it's it's gotta fit the species. You know, they just don't move as quickly and as far and as fast. So every species moves, we don't overgraze any area whether it's chickens don't breed, whether it's chickens or hogs or cows or sheep, and and it's it's very, very prescriptive. You know, we put the animals where they're needed. I can take you right now on places that need a hog impact or they need a goat impact or they need a poultry impact and then a certain amount of of education and learning when when they need what. And but it's that's that's the way it's done.


Kyle Krull - 00:39:25
It it it almost brings me back to the lawn mower analogy before, you know, like, seeing what is growing in a specific area and prescribing the right animal for that paddock. To drill down a little bit further, like, so so what what does needing hog impact look like, and what does a hog do differently than a cow or a sheep or a chicken?


Will Harris - 00:39:45
Hogs are forest creatures. Goats are forest creatures. Hogs root. We don't we don't put rings in their nose. We leave it so that they're free to root. They disturb the soil, and a certain level of soil disturbance is really good for the ecosystem. Too much soil disturbance destroys the ecosystem. And knowing when it's when it's needed and when it's enough is just, All art, no science. All art, no science. Yeah. We we we'll see it.


Anthony Corsaro - 00:40:24
Yeah. Well, y'all are certainly doing some things right because I've been there, and the hogs looked very happy to me. And you moved God knows however many cattle when I when I watched, and they seemed like they were having a pretty damn good time as well.


Jenni Harris - 00:40:36
If if you come here tonight and spend the night, you can see it again in the morning.


Anthony Corsaro - 00:40:40
There you go. There you go. I I don't know how I could get there by tonight from California, but I am due for a return visit. I will say that.


Jenni Harris - 00:40:47
You're welcome.


Will Harris - 00:40:49
Day after tomorrow and the day after that, we're gonna do it again. So you'll be out.


Anthony Corsaro - 00:40:52
Yeah. Yeah. Will, you mentioned that finishing the cows was a challenge when you made the transition early on. What what has allowed you to improve there? And, like, has there been big forage or genetic changes or components that have, you know, helped you out with that?


Will Harris - 00:41:08
No. That's a really good question. And then now the answer is yes. Yes. There have been forage improvements. Yes. There have been genetic improvements. Mhmm. There have been educational improvements on our part, knowing what to do.


Kyle Krull - 00:41:24
Mhmm.


Will Harris - 00:41:25
There's some there have been some, and also been some adjusting of attitudes about what what to expect. You know, when, if you've been in, your experience with beef consumption has just been choice or prime. That's that's that's what you ate. You know, Ruth's Chris Oak House, that's just what you don't do that with grass fed beef. It's a different expectation. Mhmm. And I've heard I've heard, all the cattlemen say, you know, my beef is as tender as any choice or or prime beef you've ever had. No.


Will Harris - 00:41:53
And I you know? No. It's not. No. No. No. It's not. I mean, it's just not. It's great. It's good. Yeah.


Will Harris - 00:42:03
Well, that comes from a that that beef comes from an obese creature Mhmm. That would never survive in nature, would never never never live a normal life expectancy in nature.


Jenni Harris - 00:42:27
Mhmm.


Will Harris - 00:42:27
And but that's what we've gotten used to eating since World War two, and it's it's good. I mean, I I it's good. I eat it. But it's not good for you, and it's not good and it's certainly not good for the animal. So it's a little different expectation. You know, I I think that if we had a if there's a ground beef contest, you know, our beef would be it would do really well. You know, if there's a, middle meat contest, you know, filet well, filet is a little different.


Jenni Harris - 00:43:02
New York strip.


Will Harris - 00:43:03
New York strip burger. You know, we we it's it's I it's not going to be as tender, and we we try to prepare people for that. We tell them it's it's it's a different product. It's not the same. Yeah. It's good.


Jenni Harris - 00:43:15
If it was a beauty pageant, we wouldn't win the prettiest girl in the contest. We'd round we'd win most well rounded.


Anthony Corsaro - 00:43:21
Yeah.


Jenni Harris - 00:43:22
A really great.


Anthony Corsaro - 00:43:25
Well, I've seen, the the instructions and the recipes that, Jenni, that you and your team have put out, like, via the email newsletter and stuff. So y'all are are doing the right thing, but I think trying to let people know, hey. This is what it is. This is how you should prepare it, etcetera. I'm sure that's been well received to some degree. Right?


Jenni Harris - 00:43:41
Yeah. Absolutely. You know, it it takes us, you know, three years to grow a cow and, you know, a lot of prayer and chance for FedEx or UPS to deliver it correctly in the right amount of time to somebody's door. And then they they unpack the box and innocently can ruin it in thirty seconds. You know? And so the what we found out is that, you know, it is our job to to to to grow it and to process it and to get it into a distribution model that, you know, can just that can deliver it. But, hell, once you get inside your house, I can't help you. You know, I can't I can't fix it from there.


Jenni Harris - 00:44:18
You know, and so that those have been those are for the customers who are receptive and wanna learn and wanna participate, it's great. If if it's somebody who has already made up their mind that they're the best damn cook on the face of the planet and they can't they can't do anything wrong, you know, it don't matter what we put out, it it won't work. So


Kyle Krull - 00:44:45
Yeah. Yeah. Fair deal. Well well, Will, I really like what you said about, choice in prime being obese animals. And I think it's it's indicative of how backwards the food system is in The United States that people are willing to pay a premium for the least healthy animal and the least healthy for themselves and the least healthy for the land. Right? Yeah. So commend you all for the efforts you're making to try to reverse that system. I think it's it's really important. I also wanna kinda dig into when you when you all describe the operation, it seems really complex.


Kyle Krull - 00:45:09
It seems really difficult, but it also seems highly I don't know what the right word is. Like, there's a level of pride that you take in the operation that you all have. And I'm curious from, like, your neighbor farms and other farmers who may not even be neighbors. Like, why aren't more people doing this? What is so hard about it? Why why can't we get more people to adopt these practices?


Will Harris - 00:45:37
Yeah. That's a good question. And, you know, the the fact is, it it it so it is probably more than you wanna know, but we got we got about $30 in assets. It's right over there. About 10 in debt. And then and the business will make maybe may may make a million dollars a year. It may not. That's a very low return on investment and a very low return on equity. But it's what we want to do, and we think it's the right thing to do.


Will Harris - 00:46:03
And I'm not we're not doing it to we're not doing it for others. We're doing it for ourselves. That's what we this is what we want to do. Mhmm. In a in a conventional farming operation, so many of the cost are thrown off for others to bear, and this is important. You know, there's a we're about 80 miles from the Gulf Of Mexico. Mhmm.


Will Harris - 00:46:35
And there's a dead zone in the Gulf Of Mexico that used to be a flourishing oyster ground. Right. It's a dead zone, man.


Jenni Harris - 00:46:46
It's the South Of Massachusetts.


Will Harris - 00:46:48
It's not a little one. It's it's as big as the state of Massachusetts.


Jenni Harris - 00:46:51
It's it's a big


Will Harris - 00:46:52
Yeah. Big zone.


Kyle Krull - 00:46:53
Huge.


Will Harris - 00:46:54
And and and we killed it by chemical fertilizers and pesticides, washing down Spring Creek to the Chattahoochee River to Apalachicola Bay and and and destroying that ecosystem. Mhmm. And and and but the the chemical the pesticide companies and the fertilizer companies and the farmers that are responsible for that won't pay to fix it. We all pay to fix it. So decentralized cost. The, you know, I I I think a lot about, endangered species of plants and animals and microbes. I think that, you know, the ecosystem, every being in that ecosystem has a role, plant, animal, or micro. Mhmm.


Will Harris - 00:47:38
And we have driven so many species into extinction or near extinction, and that has and we did it through farming with chemical fertilizer, pesticides, and, and that has cost. Right. But the pharma nor the chemical fertilizer manufacturer or the pesticide manufacturer covers that cost. We all cover it. Mhmm. Mhmm. Climate change, on and on.


Will Harris - 00:48:01
We can we can spend the day plastics in there. All these things that we put out there that the cost doesn't fall on the perpetrator. It falls on greater society. So no wonder they sell cheap shit. We're all we're all paying the cost.


Kyle Krull - 00:48:34
Right. Fun.


Jenni Harris - 00:48:37
And I'll just add another piece to that. It was very hard to make these transitions. You know, the the cost of, you know, the cost of the transition was tremendous. You know, dad was very fortunate to have inherited a very nice farm, big farm. He's an only child, thousand acres, a nice herd of cattle. You know, let let's also remember that even if they have the desire to make the transition, it's very expensive. You know, it takes, you know, the textbook says one to three years to turn a business profitable. There are not very many people who have the opportunity to lose money for for six months, let alone three years. And, oh, yeah. It's not it's very expensive.


Jenni Harris - 00:49:12
You know, it's not just the lost revenue. It's increased cost. You know? So, chomping at the bit to not make a ton of money, to spend a lot of money, and and maybe lose everything along the way, you know, is is hard. Is it you know, there's not very many people that that wanna sign up for that, and I don't know that I blame them.


Will Harris - 00:49:46
And and this is a purely agrarian economy. Where we're sitting in this county, there's no middle of railroad, Miller Miller


Jenni Harris - 00:49:56
Manufacturing mills.


Will Harris - 00:49:57
Manufacturing. Yes. It's a purely a very in the county. And, you know, the these these people are make they make they make money in the industrial farming model, and they Mhmm. They believe that and then they learn from their father and grandfather about industrial farming. They learn the University of Georgia or and whatever land grant university is by about the industrial farming. The the county agent and department of archives about industrial farming. I know on and on about, institute respected institutions that, promote industrial farming. So nobody nobody feels like they're doing anything wrong.


Will Harris - 00:50:28
These people these industrial farmers around here, my friends and neighbors and brothers, are good people. They are wonderful people. And they don't think they're doing anything wrong. I think they are. They don't think so. And, you know, I can get in some serious arguments with them about that.


Will Harris - 00:50:53
We don't talk about it because, you know, they don't wanna argue with me. I don't wanna argue with them. But


Kyle Krull - 00:51:04
Right. Some families don't talk politics. Your family doesn't talk regenerative versus industrial ag.


Will Harris - 00:51:09
That that that


Kyle Krull - 00:51:09
I mean, you should.


Will Harris - 00:51:11
You shouldn't. Sometimes sometimes it slips out.


Kyle Krull - 00:51:13
But Of course. Of course.


Will Harris - 00:51:16
But it's, it it's just it's, it's hard to transition. It's very, very hard transition. Had I not done it when I did, I don't know if I could've done it or not. Had I not had a paid full form, I don't know if I could've done it or not. I I can go old enough.


Kyle Krull - 00:51:32
Well, I really appreciate that perspective. And, again, as somebody who is not a farmer and does not understand the myriad of challenges it takes to transition, this is good education for me. And I also really wanna pick both of your brains about what sort of incentive structures in your minds could change to help make that transition less risky, easier, more appealing to the farmers who are currently not participating in these programs.


Will Harris - 00:52:00
Yeah. It it it if we see a significant change in the way we produce food in this country, if we do, it's going to be consumer driven. Mhmm. It won't happen without consumers driving it. I I told you it's very difficult and and expensive and risky for the farmer to do it, so the consumers gotta do


Kyle Krull - 00:52:21
it. Mhmm.


Will Harris - 00:52:22
Big food companies are are not going to benefit. It's it's it's it's it's if it happens, it's gonna be consumer driven, and I worry about it. You know, I I I feel like I I used to I've I've I've vacillated through the years. You know, I I told you I started making this transition because I wanted to because I didn't like what I was doing and transition to to this. And then people started talking about regenerative agriculture, and I I can remember going through a period of time. I said, I am what they call an early innovator. And what I'm doing, more and more people want to do, and I think that's great. I we we we don't aspire to make this the biggest company we can make. We probably we probably as big as or bigger than we need to be now.


Will Harris - 00:53:07
So we're not trying to grow the company. So we aspire we we we support other people that won't that wanna do this. And then I've I've gone through this. You know, may maybe I'm not an early innovator because it's hard. People aren't doing it. Maybe I'm just a niche marketer, and that's okay.


Will Harris - 00:53:25
I I like early innovator, but a niche marketer is okay. But we got we got you know, we we gonna survive, and we we probably are. Now, currently, we sell our product in 48 states, and and we don't want to. You know, we we wanna sell our product as locally as we can. I can't do it in Bluffton, Georgia, but I you know, Georgia, Florida, Alabama? Good. Mhmm. Surely, you can sell this much stuff in Georgia, Florida, and Alabama.


Will Harris - 00:53:56
And leave it for people in the Upper Midwest or New England or Pacific, coast to to do the same thing. But it, it it's just not happening very, very quickly, and I I'm not sure it's gonna happen at all. I hope it is.


Anthony Corsaro - 00:54:23
It's it's an interesting segue into, I think, the other transition, the business transition. Right? So we talked a little bit about the on farm transition. We've talked about this shift. You've all had more to the d to c side. Jenni, I would love to hear you kind of talk us through that journey and also talk us through some of the the inflection points. It sounds like COVID was a big inflection point. It sounds like, you know, increasing margin capture, as some of the retailer margin eroded was an inflection point. It sounds like having this this assortment that's grown, needing to sell that kind of in one basket to people is is an inflection point.


Anthony Corsaro - 00:54:49
Just walk us through that if you don't mind.


Jenni Harris - 00:54:58
Yeah. That that's a complicated, complicated question. I don't exactly know how I'll answer. But I'll start out by saying that, you know, the the the website sales, ecommerce, you know, has been a thing since, like, 02/1112. And we've had every iteration of it. Back when, you know, the real early, you know, people were with Zen Cart. You know? I don't know if y'all remember that, but I was a Zen Cart girl. I mean, I was, like, really dating me.


Jenni Harris - 00:55:21
And instead of, like, fixed spec, two chops per pack or an eight ounce steak, it was this steak was 8.56 ounces. This steak is 8.64 ounces. This steak was in the invoice, you're literally typing in, you know, those exact weights. I mean, that's how manual, catch weight I mean, it's just incredible.


Jenni Harris - 00:55:39
And we've we've really, you know, moved the light years ahead, and and we were encouraged to do so because of the, you know, the imported product that showed up in grocery stores in the 02/2015 or so, you know, time frame. When dad built the business, it was entirely wholesale, entirely grocery. And he had no interest for it being anything any different. You know, we have in fact, I don't even know that you focus on there being a different different type of of model out there. And but that change, you know, it worked really, really well up until about 02/2015 when mandatory country of origin labeling was removed from, meat packaging. So in 02/2015, you could be eating ground beef from an animal that was raised in Australia, slaughtered in Australia, shipped on a cargo ship, you know, as meat, lean trim, and then ground in The United States and that be marketed as a product of The USA.


Jenni Harris - 00:56:33
It's it's it's just like, you know, the shirt I'm wearing. And I know, Anthony, you're wearing a shirt that is made with or, I think organic domestic cotton. Right? Yep. So and I I have some of those that you sent me. But, you know, today, you know, you can be eating product of The USA bee from an animal that never walked a step on American soil, drew a breath of American air, but that's a product of The USA.


Jenni Harris - 00:57:10
Now that's supposedly gonna change in January of next next year. We'll see if if that remains the case. But, you know, for us, the opportunity to sell direct to the end consumer was was really invaluable because we weren't going to have enough tallow candles to give to somebody or rawhide pet juice to allow a grocery store to sell. You know, ecommerce for us was a place that you could get, you know, the the fig jam and strawberry jelly and, you know, beef jerky and whatever else in these little tiny quantities. And we're very dynamic, you know, and proportionate to the the available raw material. You know, it's like Mhmm. Our organic vegetable farm is maybe two or three acres.


Jenni Harris - 00:58:00
Well, we have some okra, but it's not two acres of okra. It's just some okra. And that okra that we get, we pickle and we turn into pickled okra. But we don't get a couple hundred jars a year. You know, and so there's there's really no wholesale model that can support that. So for us, you know, that direct to consumer side of things was was the answer. Did I answer that question?


Anthony Corsaro - 00:58:33
Yeah. I think you did. I I have one, a little story that into a question. I was back home in Indianapolis, Indiana over the holidays, and my one of my little nephews is playing basketball. And one of the dads has a white oak pastures hat on. And so I go up there. I'm like, white oak pastures? Blah blah blah. And he's like, I heard about them on Rogan, and I buy we buy we buy them once a once a month now, and we went down and stayed at one of the cabins in Bluffing.


Anthony Corsaro - 00:58:50
I'm like, awesome. Love that.


Jenni Harris - 00:58:59
That's great. What a small world.


Will Harris - 00:59:01
Tell tell him Frank. Tell him tell him we said Frank.


Anthony Corsaro - 00:59:05
I will. I will. But I'm curious. And and you guys don't need to share numbers or anything, but, like, what has been the effect on the ecommerce business of being on Rogan twice?


Jenni Harris - 00:59:14
Yeah. That that's great. So, you know, we didn't have ecommerce figured out, but we had figured some of the stuff about ecommerce out. So our ecommerce business is, the product of being able to fail over and over and over again for years and, oh, yeah, pandemic that happened Yeah.


Anthony Corsaro - 00:59:33
In March of twenty twenty.


Jenni Harris - 00:59:35
We did just two share numbers. 02/2019, I think, $2 worth of revenue online, you know, which, hell, I was proud of. You know? I I thought that was just awesome. And, you know, March of twenty twenty rolls around and it was like, you know, the business tripled. It literally tripled overnight. So our ability to grow ecommerce was not because we're such shrewd marketers and because we're just so good at what we do and the brand is just that awesome. It was, you know, literally a panicked pandemic situation where people were just trying to feed their families. And we happen to, you know, have the ability, to bypass traditional methods to get, you know, products to people's homes. And so that was good.


Jenni Harris - 01:00:11
Dad went on, Joe Rogan in November of twenty twenty two. And we made some huge mistakes from a marketing perspective, that that I got an opportunity to fix the next time. But the the Rogan effect for us, can be summed up to about twelve weeks of not being able to find your ass with both hands. I mean, it was it was incredible. And there there was really nobody or no way to prepare for it. You know, we I didn't I didn't know that it was possible to go through what we went through.


Jenni Harris - 01:00:49
It was a blessing, but it was, we were extended a lot of grace, during that period. So we finally caught our breath probably April or May, you know, after that November airing of dad going on. And that was a really powerful episode. I mean, it still gets a ton of


Anthony Corsaro - 01:01:11
Yeah.


Jenni Harris - 01:01:12
You know, of reference and a ton of of activity. You know, he was just really on his game and and, you know, was laying down a lot of truth. And Joe was incredibly receptive and interested. You know, it was just this perfect combination of huge platform and lots of experience, and, it was it was a real blessing. Not only for White Oak Pastures, but I think for, you know, small regenerative farms and, you know, all over.


Kyle Krull - 01:01:34
%. Totally.


Jenni Harris - 01:01:36
And then, we had the opportunity to go back on after his book was published. Book came out 10/1023, and we went back on. He and I both went, in November of twenty three. And we knew the mistakes we have made the prior year and fixed those entirely. I will say,


Will Harris - 01:01:54
I'm Yeah. I I


Jenni Harris - 01:01:54
will brag on our marketing team and saying that we handled it that next year round. We


Anthony Corsaro - 01:01:59
There you go.


Jenni Harris - 01:02:00
Had gotten a second bite at the apple as we southern or say, and we bit that son of a gun hard. So we, you know, we use that as another opportunity to tell to tell people about regenerative farming. So the the


Kyle Krull - 01:02:14
the effect is real. I don't wanna disappoint, but you're not gonna have the Ray Jam branch effect to the same to the same degree. Good. We don't have quite that platform of audience yet. But I do I do wanna touch you know, obviously, you know, Rogan twice is fantastic. Love the support for the book launch. Wanna dig into the book a little bit. You know? Why did you all decide? You know?


Kyle Krull - 01:02:30
Well, why did you decide to to want to write a book? What were you wanting to say? What was that process like, and what sort of reception has the book received so far?


Will Harris - 01:02:43
I didn't want to write a book.


Kyle Krull - 01:02:46
Who forced you to write a book? Sure.


Jenni Harris - 01:02:50
Yeah. I should say we were we've been thrust in a lot of businesses we did not wanna go in. You know, tourism was, you know, a gift, but it was because there were a lot of curious people that showed up and said, you you know, come here and show me what you're doing. And being a nice, you know, interested, passionate person, he dropped what he was doing and show them. And then, you know, we we kinda formalized tours, and then we formalized overnight stays, and then we formalized our restaurant. Because, you know, when you bring people out here and you keep them overnight, you gotta have a place to feed them. There's not a whole lot of opportunity around here. So the book is just another iteration of being thrust into an opportunity.


Will Harris - 01:03:28
So we got I got called by a couple from New York City who I now understand are agents for.


Jenni Harris - 01:03:38
They're literary agents.


Will Harris - 01:03:40
Yeah. For for Right. Penguin Random House Viking. And, they proposed that I write a book, and I told them I can't write a book. I don't read books. I can't tell you that right. I'm my my education is University of Georgia, College of Agriculture. We're writing a book. It was not part of that. But we, they were they were very insistent, and Jenni got involved. And the, the cunning plan became to hire a a a writer to write a book for me.


Will Harris - 01:04:04
And the the writer, I wasn't too excited about that, but the writer wound up being a little sweetheart just about Jenni's age. I like to say that.


Kyle Krull - 01:04:27
Yeah.


Will Harris - 01:04:28
Just a sweetheart. And I I kinda fell in love with her, and she spent a lot of time down here. And, she wrote she we talked endlessly. And, we got a date every Friday. And when she left here, we're back California. We had a every Friday, she called, I called. We had a one to three hour call, and she'd ask questions. She's like a drill sergeant. And and then over, she got she run everything out of me that I have ever known or thought I knew or wanted to know.


Will Harris - 01:04:53
And she wrote wrote the book, and I think she just did a fantastic job. If if if it's good, it's because she knew good. If it's bad, it's called I screwed it up.


Anthony Corsaro - 01:05:14
There you go. There you go. I like it. Well, we will definitely link it in the show notes. Encourage everybody to check it out. It's on my bookshelf. I have not read it yet. Is there an audio version? Can I get it on a version


Jenni Harris - 01:05:25
of it too? Will Harris himself?


Anthony Corsaro - 01:05:28
Oh, okay. That's what I need. I I need I need it in the voice of Will Harris,


Jenni Harris - 01:05:31
not not my


Anthony Corsaro - 01:05:32
dumb brain trying to read it.


Jenni Harris - 01:05:33
Well, they started sending samples of voices to read his book, and I was like, this is not gonna work. This this can't be the way the book goes. He'll never write another one. This cannot be it. Yeah. And so I I had to really beg him. It's amazing what a man will do for his grandchildren. I said, daddy, don't do it for me. Don't do it for you. Do it for your grandchildren. They need And, and he he gave in.


Jenni Harris - 01:05:52
They,


Will Harris - 01:06:01
that, so they to to to read the book, I had to go to Albany about 50 miles away to a recording studio,


Anthony Corsaro - 01:06:10
Mhmm.


Will Harris - 01:06:11
Everyday for about some eight days. Supposed to be five. I mean, some eight days. It'll be four originally.


Jenni Harris - 01:06:18
It was supposed to be four and it took him


Will Harris - 01:06:20
eight. Yeah. And the reason is because the


Anthony Corsaro - 01:06:24
He's excessive. Remember? You're excessive,


Will Harris - 01:06:28
you know? Like you said earlier,


Jenni Harris - 01:06:29
excessively slow to speak,


Will Harris - 01:06:31
but drive. Well, so the the producer director, whatever it was in New York City, He was an asshole. And they, I'd have to read, and I'd read it. He said, read it again. I read it again. And I I mean, I read everything to at least twice, maybe three times Wow. Because he, he because he couldn't understand the way I speak. You know?


Jenni Harris - 01:06:59
That's and for those people, you should read the book.


Will Harris - 01:07:02
This one. So


Kyle Krull - 01:07:03
That that sounds like a frustrating experience. I can only imagine.


Will Harris - 01:07:07
If I could've if I he was in New York. I could've gotten my hands on it.


Kyle Krull - 01:07:12
Would've been a faster process, I would imagine. I do wanna talk about the title, a bold return to giving a damn. Why did you choose that title? Because I think I mean, I love it, and I just wanna hear from you. Like, what why was that important to you to to use those words?


Will Harris - 01:07:28
Well, that's I mean, it's just one of the things that we say. There is a it's a we we have a a lot of, very southern expressions that we use, and that's one of them, and they they just chose it. They,


Jenni Harris - 01:07:41
I think the book was slated to be called a more or a simple business, a more simple business. And, you know, that was that was what the, you know, the the publisher they were very nice. They were very easy to work with. But that was what they originally slated it for, and we we said, no. You know, what about, like, radically traditional farming? That's you know, we do. We gave them just a list of things that we thought, you know, were more us.


Jenni Harris - 01:08:03
And, and on the list was a bold return to giving a damn, and they were like, that's the one. You know, let's let's go with that one. So Mhmm. It that was not a confrontational thing. It just that their their pick wasn't as good as ours.


Anthony Corsaro - 01:08:21
Yeah. I like it.


Kyle Krull - 01:08:22
I I dig it. I I have to know, like, can you give me, like, top three other southern phrases that are maybe the rest of the non southern world doesn't doesn't know. I need just for my own I I need to hear these.


Jenni Harris - 01:08:34
Yeah. A nat's ass. So that's a pretty small thing. A nat's ass


Anthony Corsaro - 01:08:39
is pretty small.


Jenni Harris - 01:08:40
You'd rather be beat with barbed wire.


Will Harris - 01:08:43
Oh, I have my ass with a piece of barbed wire.


Jenni Harris - 01:08:45
I'd rather have my ass with, accent. I keep my ass with both hands. That was, you know, one


Anthony Corsaro - 01:08:50
that Yeah.


Jenni Harris - 01:08:51
After you hear it, you're like, oh, yeah. That makes sense. Let's see what else. Okay. I'll email him to you. I can


Kyle Krull - 01:08:59
I Okay?


Jenni Harris - 01:09:00
There's a list of thing funny things that he said that somebody started a long time ago through email, and I'll find it and email it to you. You can put it in


Kyle Krull - 01:09:08
the chat. That.


Will Harris - 01:09:09
I wasn't trying to


Kyle Krull - 01:09:10
be funny.


Will Harris - 01:09:10
I wasn't trying to be funny. Yeah.


Kyle Krull - 01:09:12
That's why he's great,


Anthony Corsaro - 01:09:14
though. Yeah. We we definitely need that. Speaking of terms and phrases and all that, like, I'm really curious to hear you all talk about regenerative, this term. You know, it's been mentioned a few times already. Like, when did that become part of the brand story, and where do you all see that going for your brand, but also, like, how it's being used at large in the marketplace? Like, what do you think about the state of the term?


Will Harris - 01:09:40
Well, yeah. You know, ever since I've been in this business, the industry has been taking terms away from us. You know? You know, USDA served out organic. You can grow tomatoes hydroponically in no soil, under lights, no sun, and it's a certified organic tomato. So organic became meaningless to me. What sustainable?


Jenni Harris - 01:10:10
Sustainable was taken away before anybody really knew what it meant. Yeah.


Kyle Krull - 01:10:14
I mean


Anthony Corsaro - 01:10:14
Right. You know?


Jenni Harris - 01:10:15
And I think regenerative is gonna have yeah.


Kyle Krull - 01:10:17
It's It


Will Harris - 01:10:18
it will go to you know, the the there there are people that make a lot of money taking phrases and, you know, the the wordsmiths, and, you know, we can't compete with them. You know, we and then and I don't wanna talk to me. I don't want to build this business based on the word regenerative. It is regenerative. We we regenerate the cycles of nature that we talked about earlier. But, you know, it will be taken away from us. You just got to we all wanna make it so simple, and it can't be that damn simple.


Will Harris - 01:10:46
The consumers got to know something about their farmer and the way he produces their food. If it's going to work, it's gonna be it's going to persist.


Kyle Krull - 01:11:05
In your opinion, how do we help to solve that problem? And I I totally hear what you're saying that these words get co opted and lose their meaning. I think you're right. I hope it doesn't happen for regenerative, but I think history tells a different story. But how do we still solve that problem? If it's not the term, how do we help people understand where their food is coming from and how their farmers are producing their food?


Will Harris - 01:11:26
You know, I think I think consumers gotta meet their farm. And now I I understand if you live in a high rise condominium in New York City or LA or somewhere, it's difficult to get out and meet a farmer. I get that. Mhmm. But I didn't say nothing about going to the farm. I think it's great if you can. But with social media being as, inquiring and invasive as it is And free free as it is. Invasive. But but it's Yeah.


Will Harris - 01:11:43
Invasive in a good way because, if you've got if the farm has got much of a media presence, you can sit in your apartment in LA or New York and and learn all you need to know about that farm to make a selection, to make that that your choice. And if you don't like that one's look a little bit further. You know, none of us are just alike. It's not a cookie cutter


Jenni Harris - 01:12:20
deal. Mhmm.


Anthony Corsaro - 01:12:20
You


Will Harris - 01:12:21
know, some of us may be better at the regenerative side. Some of us might be better at the animal welfare side. Some of us might be better at the rural economic recoveries. On and on. You know? On and on. So find somebody you like. It's like dating. You're dating.


Will Harris - 01:12:28
You find your wife online. For sure, you


Anthony Corsaro - 01:12:42
can call her dad's boss.


Kyle Krull - 01:12:45
That should be a new slogan. This should be a campaign. That's it right there.


Will Harris - 01:12:49
But but, I mean, I I do think that you you you've got to do you gotta do that, you know. And and the, you know, the problem is we you know, Jim talked about how we, got our start in grocery. I'm grateful to those people. They got us started. But none of us farmers are big enough. None of us real, regenerative, sustainable, dot dot dot farms are big enough to supply a grocery chain. Mhmm.


Will Harris - 01:13:04
So and it's very difficult for them to say, well, we'll let Will do it in Atlanta, Georgia. We'll let John do it in Philadelphia and and and. That that that Right. Falls apart in place. So but it it is possible for consumers to to to get online and while they're dating their next wife, they can pick their next farmer and all the


Jenni Harris - 01:13:43
food. I'll say another thing. You know, information is easier to get today than it's ever been. I mean, look at y'all. Y'all are, you know, two professional people, you know, interviewing, you know, a farmer in Southwest Georgia. You know, the y'all are clearly using your platform to make connections for people. I think, you know, there are a lot of people that are interested in doing that. So I think that food systems are really participatory from lots of different areas. Not just on us raising food, it's on the receptiveness of consumers, you know, and, you know, the the way information is shared by people like you between the two. Mhmm. We spend a lot of time.


Jenni Harris - 01:14:22
He spent he specifically spends a lot of time doing just this, and it's it's because we understand that the the, food system can change if it changes with, you know, consumer preference.


Anthony Corsaro - 01:14:38
Mhmm. Yeah. Love that. I I wanna double back to the whole international versus domestic supply of grass fed beef. Like, I'm curious what you all see as the consumer responsibility here domestically to support the domestic producers. Like, I I feel like there is some. Maybe it's hard to articulate what that is. The the labeling policy is clearly asked backwards, and that's just common sense policy. Like, it shouldn't be labeled as that. So, hopefully, that does go into effect, and that's a that's a fix.


Anthony Corsaro - 01:15:02
But, like, for the American consumer, like, what what is the responsibility or the role to try and support the domestic producers?


Will Harris - 01:15:12
Well, I think that, sadly, most of the big beef companies do import their grass fed you know, some of their grass fed beef. I won't say who unless you twist my tail, but Jenni was on a call.


Jenni Harris - 01:15:29
If you could tell the story.


Will Harris - 01:15:30
I'll finish there. I won't say who unless you twist my tail.


Jenni Harris - 01:15:32
I'm not twisting his tail, So we're not saying who.


Anthony Corsaro - 01:15:34
Yeah. We don't get twisted a tale.


Will Harris - 01:15:36
We were selling grass fed we were selling some grass fed beef to another national grass fed beef company that they put on the bear label. We used to sell them And Jenni was doing our annual review online with them, teleconference like this. And, they went through their little presentation and said that, you know, they they picked up this grocery company and that grocery company and whatever else, whatever else. And we got down to the end. And it sounds great. They're just growing like gangbusters, which is good. Yeah. It got down to the end.


Will Harris - 01:16:05
They said, and, our projections for next year, we're going to maintain the same volume every month. And that was fine with us. We we we're not trying to grow that business, but Jenni, being a visible, said, well, that's fine. No problem. We'll continue to provide for you. But Mhmm.


Will Harris - 01:16:20
With all that growth you just told me about, where you gonna get it from? Because there's just not that many large grass fed beef producers in the country. Right. And everybody got quiet. And she she is pretty good. She knows that if you ask a question and nobody asks it, just wait.


Anthony Corsaro - 01:16:47
Yeah.


Will Harris - 01:16:49
Yeah. So she did and found out when I broke and said, okay. Okay. So we're importing some grass fed beef. Okay?


Kyle Krull - 01:16:56
And


Will Harris - 01:16:57
she said, well, I don't know if it's okay or not. And we cut them off. We cut them off. And it was a a supplier that we've had an excellent relationship from a long time and are personally friends with the founders, but screw it. We're not going we're not going to be used to cover up, something that's that that divisive and yeah.


Jenni Harris - 01:17:22
You know, you asked earlier about, you know, selling selling product to other brands. It's just, you know, for us, we've been burned. You know, it's it's, you know, for that, it's not worth it. Would I love to continue to sell that amount of beef every month? Absolutely. That that would have made my job a lot more simple. But


Will Harris - 01:17:43
Right.


Jenni Harris - 01:17:44
Philosophically, you know, it just was not not where we thought we aligned. But, you know, their business changed, and they that's fine. You know, they they deserve the latitude to change the business, but we deserve the latitude to decide if we wanna participate.


Will Harris - 01:17:58
And the customer deserves to be told. The customer deserves to be told.


Kyle Krull - 01:18:03
You know? And this I I wanted to double double, like, check on We


Will Harris - 01:18:06
we cut or or the issue. So we we we we cut them off. But we still had cows in the pasture that were gonna have a slaughter date scheduled. So we Right. Jenni had to really scramble to find a place to go with that beef that we previously been depending on themselves. But we we we're not gonna help them we're not gonna help them camouflage.


Kyle Krull - 01:18:30
Yeah. Yeah. The camouflage aspect, that's it's really the the fact that foreign beef is coming in labeled as a USA product. That's the big issue that you all have, and you don't wanna be a part of that. Correct?


Will Harris - 01:18:42
Mhmm.


Kyle Krull - 01:18:43
Yeah. And and that makes sense. You know? I I at first, I was thinking, like, do you all just not wanna see beef imported into The United States? And I again, that doesn't seem like it's the issue. It's you don't feel like it's, correct to label it as a USA product.


Jenni Harris - 01:18:57
Imports erode the opportunity for domestic producers. You know, dad talks a lot about look at the sheep industry. You know, the sheep industry's basically gone because of imports, and cattle are are now following the same suit. You know, it it we we're kinda at a fork in the road with domestic cattle production. And this year or 2024, so last year was the first year that marked us importing more pounds of beef than we exported. We don't wanna participate in that. We think that there needs to be more domestic cattle production. We think that the ability for American farmers to feed American consumers is a pretty big deal.


Will Harris - 01:19:38
And we don't we we don't our claim is not that, imported grass fed beef is inferior. I'm I'm not saying it's not good. I hadn't I hadn't been to look and see. I don't know. I I assume it's fine. But it's not a product of The USA. Just say it out loud. Why would you say product of The USA?


Will Harris - 01:19:57
You know, but prior to that change, you Department of Ag change, product of USA, amen, born, raised, and processed in the 50 states. Mhmm. And, as Jenni pointed out, and if value was added, you call it product of The USA. But that's just intentionally misleading.


Kyle Krull - 01:20:20
Yeah. Totally agree.


Jenni Harris - 01:20:21
This shirt, you know, sewn, grown, you know, put together in a lot of different, you know, in in in Taiwan or whatever. And then we bring it in and we set that button on it or maybe even just put it from a bulk bag into this shirt having its own individual bag, and then this shirt becomes a product of The USA.


Kyle Krull - 01:20:40
Mhmm. Yeah. Very, misleading to say the least. I had another question queued up, and I completely lost my train of thought. And I'm so bummed because it was gonna be a really good question, but it's it's gone.


Anthony Corsaro - 01:20:51
I can interject with something as you as you think about what it was.


Will Harris - 01:20:54
I I I knew you'd come up with a good question if you get patents long enough.


Kyle Krull - 01:20:59
Yeah. I I just need about an hour to warm up, Will. You know, I gotta give you some time. I'm a slow starter. I'm like a biodiesel converter or something like that. You know?


Anthony Corsaro - 01:21:08
The, I'll I'll I'll share a story, then I I have a question, then I'll follow. That's a different Hold on.


Kyle Krull - 01:21:12
My question came back. I'm sorry.


Anthony Corsaro - 01:21:14
Okay.


Kyle Krull - 01:21:14
Go ahead. Okay. So, Jenni, you mentioned that great stat about we imported more beef than we produced in The United States for the first time. My assumption is that is because of the demand for 100% grass fed, grass finished is increasing, and most of what we're importing is grass fed, grass finished. Now, again, that's a complete assumption. Is that is that true? Is that not true?


Will Harris - 01:21:34
No. No. It's just pounds of beef in versus pounds of beef out.


Anthony Corsaro - 01:21:39
Yeah. All was worth in. Versus export not produced.


Jenni Harris - 01:21:43
And it's not just grass fed. I'm not talking about the grass fed category. I'm talking about beef at large. You know, the what America produces is largely fifty fifty trim, and fifty fifty trim is not a marketable product. So we have to import pounds of lean trimming to then create an eighty twenty, 90 10 ground commodity, ground beef, you know, product. So what what the commodity cattle production, cattle system produces is not what consumers can can purchase.


Kyle Krull - 01:22:15
I did not know that. So I'm so glad I asked what actually now seems to be maybe not a great question, but I got a great answer out of it. So thank you.


Jenni Harris - 01:22:22
All good. Dad's got a blog coming out, in the next day or two about it, so stay tuned.


Anthony Corsaro - 01:22:28
There we go. Cool.


Will Harris - 01:22:29
We'll we'll


Kyle Krull - 01:22:30
include that in the show notes as well.


Anthony Corsaro - 01:22:33
That that tees up something I would like y'all to highlight and just educate folks on, as well, which is two things that y'all work on. One is CIFAR, which I believe is a educational nonprofit that you all run. And then the other one is the internship program. And I'll just tell a real quick story then then let y'all handle the rest. But when I was getting my start in this space, no idea, couldn't find my ass with my two hands myself. You know, I was I was trying to learn as much as I could. And I sent Jenni an email about a workshop that White Oak was hosting where Gabe Brown and Will were gonna speak.


Anthony Corsaro - 01:22:57
And I forget what it cost, but it was something I couldn't afford. And I asked Jenni. I said, hey, Jenni. Can I can I come? I'm a be driving through town. I'm driving my grandpa's car up from Pensacola to Indiana. No problem. Absolutely come.


Anthony Corsaro - 01:23:09
And it was really a magical day with with with you two, with Gabe, with all the interns that were there, with a few farmers and ranchers that showed up to learn. So I'm just deeply grateful because it it really was very impactful to me at a very important time in my kinda journey trying to support this space in the way that I I do now. But I also think it shows you all have plenty going on. So you you could definitely kinda shut shut the doors, put walls up and say, hey. We're just gonna do our thing, and we don't need to really share this with the world. But you've really taken a turn to do just the exact opposite of that.


Anthony Corsaro - 01:23:44
So I'd love to hear you just speak about that, you know, you know, why in those two programs specifically.


Jenni Harris - 01:23:54
Yeah. I think that, you know, dad mentioned earlier, we all really, really don't wanna grow the business. You know, it it I'm I'm, I'm a wife. I'm a mother of two. I'm a daughter. You know, white oak pastures is very important to me, but I'm also important to other people. And


Kyle Krull - 01:24:11
Right.


Jenni Harris - 01:24:11
You know, I can't put in another ten hours to do a hundred thousand dollars more of sales or another twenty hours to 2 more. And so I don't I don't want that for me. I don't want that for my family. I'm very satisfied with with my quality of life. You know, so there is really no temptation to grow the business. We are very, very happy. It's it's as complicated as as our feeble minds can can stand around it.


Jenni Harris - 01:24:35
You know, if it gets much harder or much bigger, we'll probably have to hire somebody, an executive, something something to help us run the business. And we we really don't want that. And in that sort of journey and and, you know, coming to accept that we don't wanna grow the business, we wanna just continue the business. We wanna continue to do what we're doing. We focus on the fact that regenerative agriculture is not very scalable. It is very replicable.


Jenni Harris - 01:24:58
You know, we'll never no farmer will ever be able to write a how to manual or a, you know, a hot list of things to do or tell somebody exactly how it should be done because, you know, you could take him the best, in my opinion, you know, cattle person on the face of the planet and move him a few hundred miles in any direction, and he's all of a sudden, you know, as lost as anybody. You know, it's it's that, it's that, regional. And so for us, education became a huge thing because we we now are focused on the fact that we're not scalable. And probably anybody operating a business like this is not scalable. We've we've done scalable food before and that's a commodity food production system. So we've gotta help this system replicate, you know, all over The United States Of America and the world.


Jenni Harris - 01:25:58
I mean, you know, but the formation of CFAR, which is the five zero one c three, was dad's, hope to invest in education, to give, foundations, to give, you know, corporations, the opportunity to donate to see this movement replicated in other parts of The United States. So we have educational sessions, probably one every month that range between production, pasture production, to the fundamentals of regenerative agriculture, to, some of the very niche to us, but also to others, niche or sorry, solar grazing. And, we rotate those, you know, individual classes, through the year and host people, at Wat Oak Pastures to help not tell them what to do, but show them what we did so that, you know, they'll they'll be inspired and go home and take the things that worked for us, take the things that didn't work for us, and retool it, and make it work for them.


Kyle Krull - 01:27:13
Mhmm.


Jenni Harris - 01:27:14
Yeah. The internship program, you have anything you wanna add about CIFAR? No.


Will Harris - 01:27:18
I did.


Jenni Harris - 01:27:19
The internship program, was another one of those things that we were thrust into. You know, probably, I don't know, fifteen years ago, dad, you know, got emails from people all over the world that said, hey. I'm willing to donate my time if you'll just let me come learn. And, you know, he said, I don't I reserve the right to, you know, to to fire you if you're not if you're lazy and promote. No. I don't want you to you know, I don't know who you are. Your time is not something that's marketable to me.


Jenni Harris - 01:27:43
I need I need folks to know what they're doing.


Anthony Corsaro - 01:27:51
Yeah.


Jenni Harris - 01:27:51
And so and also from a liability perspective, we couldn't just have, like, random people running around, you know Right. Doing what they do, which is still the case today. So, he formed the internship program. It first started with just the the organic vegetable farm and has morphed. And probably for the last eight years, we've had, four sessions of, interns every year, twelve week sessions of forty eight weeks out of the year, people here. And we're unfortunately in a housing crisis in Bluffton, Georgia. There's, you know, not not very many people here. The there haven't been a ton of people here, so the infrastructure is very small and limiting.


Jenni Harris - 01:28:26
And fortunately and unfortunately, more people wanna come here than we can house, so we we choose six applications, you know, every every semester, every twelve week period. And they're here rotating from, you know, sheep production to hog production to cattle production to honey to, you know, tallow skin care production to, you know, whatever. They they vacillate and move through in a very systematic rotation. At the end of twelve weeks, you know, if they like us and we have got a spot for them, we'll offer them a job, at White Oak Pastures. And I'm, fortunate to say that a lot of the managers I work most closely with are products of our internship program. They Yeah.


Jenni Harris - 01:29:08
You know, came here and rotated through and, you know, have stayed three, four, five, six, seven years later.


Kyle Krull - 01:29:23
Hell, yeah. That's amazing.


Anthony Corsaro - 01:29:26
Yeah. A few of those a few of those interns are some of my very good close personal friends in the space and, just really cool. So I appreciate appreciate y'all's leadership in a lot of regards with that, especially because like you said, you know, we have to spread this from a replicable model perspective, because it can't necessarily scale, at a certain point in a lot of places. Well, we'll take you home with the final question, which, you know, I feel like I say this every show now, but we've been kinda talking about the whole episode. We we ask everybody that that comes on this one, how do we get ReGen Brands to 50% market share by 2050? How do we do that?


Will Harris - 01:30:04
Consumer education.


Jenni Harris - 01:30:05
Yeah. I think you continue to use your platform to, to make what we do accessible for people that will never never have the opportunity to know us and us not have the opportunity to know them. Yeah. I think you're doing what, what can be done, but, ultimately, it it lies with the consumer.


Anthony Corsaro - 01:30:25
Yep. Appreciate that.


Kyle Krull - 01:30:28
Well, we super appreciate the time. I think AC is right. We've been talking about it the whole time. And, well, you've mentioned consumer education a handful of times, which is, I think, spot on with our theory of change. I also just wanna double back, circle back, talk about the regional system that you mentioned before and how you all don't want to sell product across the country. I think that's so admirable, and that ties into, Jenni, what you said about, you know, it's a replicable system, not a scalable system. And the way I see the hopeful potential future of regenerative ag is there are other white oak type operations that pop up in these different regions. And, hopefully, we get consumers to understand the benefits that these sorts of decisions have on their backyard, and we get to tie the the ecosystem benefits to people's home turf, and that incentivizes more purchase. I don't know exactly how we increase household penetration regionally, but to me, this feels like part of the answer. You know?


Kyle Krull - 01:31:15
So that consumer education piece and telling people like, hey. This is not just good for you, but it's good for your area that you live in. So,


Will Harris - 01:31:28
you know, the temptation is always there for me to start naming people that I know that I think are real good, that I respect. And I I I hate doing that because I always forget somebody and somebody's pissed off because I mentioned somebody and didn't mention that. But, you know, there are there aren't enough of us out there, but there are a lot of us out there. Yeah. And if consumers will support the ones of us that are out there, it'll encourage others to step up, and I can just see it I can see it growing if it if it could be that way. And as we said earlier, the the obstruction of that is the fact that industrial food is so good at messaging what they're doing and confusing the consumer. And that happens all the time. Consumers are so busy, you know, that they and and and the messaging is so good.


Kyle Krull - 01:32:29
Yeah. Well, if if I don't wanna give you any homework, but if you and you don't have to say it here on the podcast, but if you can come up with a list that we can share in the show notes of the other producers across the country, we would love to share that. But, you know, no pressure.


Anthony Corsaro - 01:32:42
I think I think a lot of them are on episode zero to 96. So I think we have some of the bases covered already. But yeah, man. It's just it's been a joy to have you both on. I I, for the longest time, because I'm in charge of scheduling, like, didn't feel worthy of asking you all to come on. So was kinda holding out until until I felt like we were ready. And, I really appreciate it.


Jenni Harris - 01:33:02
Ridiculous. I'm sorry. You've been so wrong.


Will Harris - 01:33:05
Yeah. I mean, she's right. You're so wrong. We're we're delighted we're delighted to talk about what we do.


Anthony Corsaro - 01:33:13
Love it. Well, we appreciate y'all very much, so thank you for the time.


Kyle Krull - 01:33:17
Thank you all. Thank you.


Anthony Corsaro - 01:33:21
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