#99 - Carolyn Gahn @ Applegate - Applegate Bets Big On Regenerative Beef

Episode Recap:

ReGen Brands Recap #99 - Applegate Bets Big On Regenerative Beef - (RECAP LINK)

Episode Transcript:

Disclaimer: This transcript was generated with AI and is not 100% accurate.

Kyle Krull - 00:00:13
Welcome to the ReGen Brands Podcast. This is a place for brands, retailers, investors, and other food system stakeholders to learn about the consumer brands supporting regenerative agriculture and how they're changing the world. This is your host, Kyle, joined by my cohost, AC, who's gonna take us into the

Anthony Corsaro - 00:00:33
episode. On this episode, we're joined by Carolyn Gahn, who is the Senior Director of Mission and Advocacy at Applegate. Applegate has just announced that they've achieved their ambitious goal to source 100% of the beef in their beef hot dogs from certified regenerative grasslands. By implementing this change, Applegate is helping to transition 10,800,000 acres of grasslands to certified regenerative. Carolyn leads Applegate's regenerative agriculture initiatives, and she joins us to share how the brand has gone from a single experimental product to transforming its entire hot dog portfolio to be certified regenerative. We explore what made Applegate double down on regen even when consumers didn't fully understand it and how this shift reflects the brand's long standing mission of changing the meat we eat. Carolyn gives us a transparent look at the supply chain complexity, the multiple certifications chosen, and how Applegate's position within Hormel actually helped move their regen efforts forward at scale. We also dig into Applegate's nutrient density testing and human health trials, their efforts to create true market signals for farmers, and how storytelling is evolving to make Regen accessible and meaningful for everyday consumers.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:01:32
We went big for episode 99, y'all. Let's go. What's up, everybody? Welcome back to another episode of the ReGen Brands Podcast. Very excited today to have our friend Carolyn Gahn from Applegate joining us fresh off some very, very big news from Applegate on the Regen side of things. So welcome, Carolyn.

Carolyn Gahn - 00:02:07
Thanks for having me. Good to be here.

Kyle Krull - 00:02:10
We're super excited to have you, for a variety of reasons. But I think for me, primarily, this gets to be kind of a different format to have a heavy hitter like Applegate in into the mix. You know, it's not gonna be the same types of questions we typically ask. That being said, I'm gonna start with the same question I always ask in every episode. If anybody I want it to you. Yeah. Exactly. Right? We're gonna do something different and start with the same.

Kyle Krull - 00:02:28
But for anybody, I mean, I can't I can't imagine there are many listeners who are not familiar with Applegate. But just in case, what sort of products do you all produce, and where can people find Applegate today?

Carolyn Gahn - 00:02:45
Yeah. So we, specialize in, natural organic meats. You can find us across the grocery store, with hot dogs, chicken nuggets, deli meats, you know, breaded chicken items, breakfast. We got frittata bites, breakfast sandwiches, sausage, breakfast sausage. So we're kind of all over, all over the the the various meat sections in the in the grocery store, and we specialize in family favorites, that are, you know, made with simple ingredients, are you know, we were founded in 1987, as with that in mind, that mission in mind, creating family favorite, products and, you know, simple ingredient, clean ingredient versions. So, you know, really starting, around, like, removing antibiotics from the meat supply chain. You know, no added fillers or, you know, you know, especially when you think about things like hot dogs. You know, our our mission was to really just simplify, the the meet, you know, meet space, and move the supply chain towards, higher welfare, higher standards. So, yeah, we we started in 1987.

Carolyn Gahn - 00:04:11
Stephen McDonnell is our founder, and really, through, you know, the decades of working in this space, really grown our product portfolio, across all those different categories.

Kyle Krull - 00:04:31
Yeah. Super love that. I have been consuming apple gate meats for a very long time. I'm like I'm like every brand's favorite consumer because once I find something I like, I just buy it religiously. And I was really heavy into the turkey breakfast sausage phase for quite a long time, and that was, like, my breakfast every day. And now I have a ritual where every Sunday night I make a pizza, and I use the Applegate turkey pepperoni. Yeah. Yeah. That I literally and, like, every Sunday, I I top my whole pizza so that you can't even see the cheese.

Kyle Krull - 00:04:55
There's so much pepperoni, and I eat the rest of it just straight up.

Carolyn Gahn - 00:05:03
Yeah.

Kyle Krull - 00:05:03
So You

Carolyn Gahn - 00:05:04
you know what? You remind me of my 11 year old son who every day

Kyle Krull - 00:05:10
Yes.

Carolyn Gahn - 00:05:12
Eats for lunch. I make him a tortilla, plain tortilla with apple cake pepperoni, like, 25 pieces of pepperoni, and that's it. Like, no condiments or anything. I, like, roll it up in the tortilla. I don't he loves it. This is what he eats every day, so I'm, like, just going with it. But

Kyle Krull - 00:05:33
I mean Yeah. He and I should hang out, you know. We can have lunch together. Yeah. And, I mean, it's really, like, my my, my palate never really evolved past eleven years old, so I'm still I'm still there.

Carolyn Gahn - 00:05:44
Well, you are our you are exact demographic that we are serving. So

Kyle Krull - 00:05:48
Oh, yeah. Well, I mean, it it really does. Like, that's I'm not trying to belittle it, but, you know, for me, it it's healthy, clean, convenient, and that's, like, the most important thing. Like, I want to consume the highest level of nutrition I can, and I don't wanna spend a ton of time in the kitchen. You know, there's a lot to do in the day, and I'm a horrible cook. So the easier you all can make it to have access to delicious nutrient dense well sourced food, like, the better.

Carolyn Gahn - 00:06:13
Yeah. Yeah. And that's, I mean, exactly why we we don't call ourselves, like, a kid brand or anything even though, you know, chicken nuggets, things that you think that kids eat most of the time. But it, you know, really is, like, now open to the entire family. Like, let's be real. We all are gonna eat these things with our kids. We're not gonna make separate dishes. So, I mean, I think it's just like making making better products that are, you know, like, available and, like you said, nutrient dense for the whole family.

Kyle Krull - 00:06:48
Yeah. It's only a kid nugget if it's shaped like a dinosaur. Yeah. Otherwise, it's an all family nugget.

Carolyn Gahn - 00:06:55
Yeah. Oval shape is family nugget. Dino kid. Yeah. Got it. Yeah.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:07:02
Well, it's a I mean, it's a good segue into why I think so many people are excited about what y'all are doing in terms of regenerative, Carolyn, because we know that right now, there's somewhat of an accessibility problem, in in source of in terms of, like, family sourcing regenerative products. And so the fact that Applegate now has their entire hot dog portfolio as fully, you know, certified regenerative, like, that's a huge deal. At least we think it's a huge deal. And, I can't even imagine the mass amount of work it's taken just to get there. So we really want to have you kind of unpack that. But, you know, for us as champions of the space, like, to have a scale brand like Applegate that's now owned by a giant company like Hormel that's really committed to regenerative, and the slogan is literally, you know, changing the meat we eat, and now that involves regen. Like, those are all positive markers, I think, of that. This thing is real. We can do it at scale.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:07:50
So, yeah, just super super excited to have you on to talk about all that, for sure.

Carolyn Gahn - 00:08:00
Yeah. No. It's super exciting. Really fun and awesome to learn alongside many others also working in this space, as you well know. I mean, it's definitely not an individual feat. Right? Like, it's the whole concept is collaborate collaborative. So, yeah. No. It's really exciting and awesome to be able to venture into a, you know, very big thing.

Carolyn Gahn - 00:08:21
Like, it's like, this is the food system we all have been, like, striving towards, and now we have, like, an actual pathway to to accomplish some of those things. It's just really motivating.

Kyle Krull - 00:08:43
Yeah. Absolutely. And, you know, you mentioned that one of the key differentiators for Applegate early on was the removal of antibiotics and hormones. Right? And it feels like there's been an evolution within Applegate where you've continually evolved to improve the standards. How and when did Regen become a priority internally?

Carolyn Gahn - 00:09:03
Yeah. So, I mean, it probably was, you know, back in 2020, we were just getting into this space. And I will say, I've I've only been with Applegate for two years, so I'm not gonna take credit for for, you know, any of this. I mean, this is all definitely a a multilayered, multi person effort. And so it really you know, in 2020, we we started having the conversations with our beef suppliers and, you know, had beef supply some on a small scale, we had beef suppliers ready to go, like, already, like, really jazzed about this concept. And, you know, we were one of the founding members in the land to market, you know, consortium of brands that were, you know, ready to test this out. And so, you know, one of our early on partners, and I know you've had Jamie Ager on Hickory Nut Gap. We really loved working with them, especially as we transition to the EOB, you know, working with them on the EOB model and, you know, giving them space and time to transition, with that in a way that made sense for their entire business.

Carolyn Gahn - 00:10:06
You know, that that we weren't thinking about exactly what we were gonna do with that, after. I mean, we we we we have only a few products that have beef in our portfolio, and so it was, like, naturally hot dogs. Like, let's think about hot dogs. Like, we beef you know, we are you've got grass fed beef. Let's go all in on the regenerative, and start it. You know?

Carolyn Gahn - 00:10:42
Try a product out. Like, so let's let's create a new product, that is regen and see how it lands. So, you know, that's what we did. Do good dog was that product, a separate SKU. It had, you know, land to market on a seal. You know, we really told the story, grassroots style, you know, really got out there and talked to people about Regen, about what it was, you know, did a lot of farmer interviews and, you know, really got a good learnings from that.

Carolyn Gahn - 00:11:08
You know, we launched that in a few, major retailers, Whole Foods, Kroger, HEB. Got great, you know, feedback from them. Really, that was our goal, to test it out, test out the market. Did consumer insights see what was hitting, what wasn't hitting. It was a great learning experience. It was fun and just gave us a good sense of where to go next.

Carolyn Gahn - 00:11:51
And I think that's you know, when you create a separate skill, no matter what standard or certification you have on it, it's like come it makes your supply chain challenged. Right? Because you're you have to segregate things. You have to have minimum order quantities. You have to, you know, work with everybody in your supply chain to make that segregated and make it make sense. And so, you know, that is always gonna be a challenge, and that was just one of the reasons why we, you know, we took we we took the the findings, and kind of went the opposite direction from what the data might tell us.

Carolyn Gahn - 00:12:23
Like, it was like, oh, consumers don't you know, this isn't a familiar concept for consumers. They are not seeking out regenerative. They're not, you know, really aware of agricultural practices. You know, seeing this on pack is not, you know, is not a buying decision for them. You know? So all these things we learned, and we, you know, we got that from do good dog. But instead of saying, oh, okay. This isn't gonna work.

Carolyn Gahn - 00:13:00
We're, you know, we're done with regen. We were like, alright. Let's go all in. We gotta move all of our hot dogs over. Like, you know, this is why I love, you know, mission driven brands because it's like in on paper, this doesn't make sense. But there's a bigger purpose here that we're going for. And, honestly, that's that's that's our that's we owe it to our consumers.

Carolyn Gahn - 00:13:26
Like, they've been on this journey with us for so long. They ex they, you know, expect expect us to be pushing forward. And so, yeah, we we we were like, yeah, we're all in. And then we started on the journey. And, honestly, like, if I have one more meeting about hot dogs, like, I feel like my head's gonna explode. Like, we I don't think we understood what we were getting into Yeah. With the the complicated nature of all of this. So yeah. Like Yeah. Hot dogs.

Carolyn Gahn - 00:14:01
I mean, it's I'm, like, dreaming about hot dogs. It's just crazy.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:14:25
So my my first question is, you know, in in those conversations to really change the approach from single SKU to entire portfolio, you you you kinda mentioned, like, it was a little bit backwards engineering. Right? But, like, what what was the driver? Because my my assumption or my my my guess is and what we've seen on the podcast from all the conversations we've had is, like, the Regen's not a purchasing a primary purchasing driver. Right? So you have to make it more about, hey. This is the best blank or this is a very nutritious blank or, you know, we're always producing the most forward thinking blank and regenerative is kind of the back the back engine.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:14:56
It seems like you guys have kind of embraced that approach too. Was that really the calculus internally as you as you made that choice?

Carolyn Gahn - 00:15:13
Yeah. I mean, I think it's like is this we're we're making this call regardless of, you know, what the consumer demand is. Like, it it it's less important that we put something on pack, and it's more important to just be as efficient as possible to drive the largest impact. And, you know, like, we're one part of the puzzle of, you know, balancing a carcass, you know, by you know, there's a lot more moving parts and at a small scale, you know, demanding, you know, a certification on, you know, x amount of pounds of trim, it's just not worth it for anybody to really do all of that for, like, a little bit. Right? So, I I mean, a part of it, it was just like, what's the biggest impact that we could have, and how do we make this make sense for farmers? You know? Like, this needs to be worth it to them, and that happens with volume, that happens with economies of scale.

Carolyn Gahn - 00:16:17
And then, you know, when we think about the consumer, like, we didn't wanna ask a consumer to make a choice because we knew all that information. They weren't seeking that out. So we don't wanna ask them to choose this. We're just gonna make the call that this is the right thing to do, and we wanna give our consumers the best product possible. So we're just gonna use the better quality, you know, product that we're you know, that's better for the long term, you know, sustainability of the land. So, you know, we're still working on what that looks like on the front end.

Carolyn Gahn - 00:16:58
But now that we would work to build the supply out, you know, it's only the opportunities just expand from here. Like, we can get more farmers onboarded. We can, you know, just hopefully, say create, like, a market signal that this is this is what we want. Like, this is the this is where meat needs to go.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:17:32
What's up y'all? Quick interruption to do two things. One, say thank you. Thank you for supporting our work. Thank you for listening to this episode. We greatly appreciate it. From Kyle, myself, and our whole team, thank you so much for your support. It it truly means the world, and it is why we do what we do. And secondly, we're asking for your support. For the first time ever in this new nonprofit structure that we've created, we are raising money via donations. So what does that mean? It means that we are asking our audience, people like you that listen to the show, that in that engage with our content, to see value in it, to support us with a donation.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:18:00
All these donations go to our five zero one c three nonprofit, which means that they're all tax deductible. And right now, we are doing a fundraising campaign where one generous donor has pledged to match all of the donations that come in in the next few weeks until we hit $50,000 total raised. This is a big opportunity for us. This is the first time we're doing this. So we're we're gonna celebrate with a couple cute cool things. As you can tell from this episode, this is episode 98. We got episode 100 coming up.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:18:32
So every single one of you that donates any amount at all will get invited to our community call that's happening here in a couple of weeks where we are gonna celebrate episode 100. We're gonna throw a big party. We're gonna have a lot of fun. We're gonna have some very special guests. So any donation, any amount, book your ticket to our community call in a couple of weeks. Our other really fun incentives are if you make a recurring monthly donation of at least $25, you'll be entered to win a epic, epic, epic 1,000 plus dollar valued giveaway of regenerative products.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:18:55
We got some awesome stuff in there from Good Sam, Roots, Tomato Bliss, Kettle and Fire, all the amazing brands that you've heard on this podcast, some epic regenerative goodness coming at you with a chance to win that. And then last but not least, if you make a $100 plus one time donation, you'll be entered into a raffle giveaway for a force of nature meets grill master box. This is a $300 value with 16 items, some amazing regenerative raised meat in there for y'all. So if you make a one time donation of over a hundred dollars, you'll be entered for a chance to win that box as well. So, y'all, please support us if you have the means. We would greatly appreciate it. We've gotten to the first one hundred episodes pretty much all on our own.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:19:44
We need your help to get to the next hundred episodes. So if you do wanna support, you can go to donate.regen-brands.com/podcast. That's donate.regen-brands.com/podcast.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:19:51
We greatly appreciate you being a listener, a supporter, part of our community, and we would greatly appreciate your support. Thanks so much.

Kyle Krull - 00:20:15
I wanna touch on a few things you mentioned, Caroline, because I think it's super, super important. And I don't know if you know this, but the the first cattle supply team that Applegate used for the Do Good dog, Kettle and Fire actually sourced bones from those same animals. So when you mentioned, like, the whole carcass utilization, you know, similar to you, you know, if you're trying to buy trim, we can't go to a farm and be like, hey. We wanna buy your regenerative bones. Can you implement these practices? Because we're just buying the bones. And it's so awesome for an organization with the power the purchasing power of Applegate to come in and help to create the market demand to spur these transitions on the actual, like, on the land to allow category adjacent companies like Kettle and Fire access to those regenerative bones because, again, we can't spur that that transition on our own.

Kyle Krull - 00:20:43
But together, you know, we we get the opportunity to incentivize these farmers and ranchers to make the right decisions. So, kudos to you all for for leading the way there. And and another kudos, like, the fact that applicants, like, hey. Nobody cares about this. We're doubling down. We're gonna make the whole portfolio regen, is insane, especially, like, in in my mind for a company like Hormel is, is the the owner of Applegate.

Kyle Krull - 00:21:20
And for them to support that sort of initiative, I think, just deserves a lot of recommend or, what's the word I'm looking for? I lost it. The word is gone.

Carolyn Gahn - 00:21:37
Acknowledgment or

Kyle Krull - 00:21:38
There you go. I was gonna say recommendation. That was totally wrong. Thank you, Carolyn. Yeah. Deserves to be acknowledged. And it's it's just it's amazing to see that kind of support from from big food. I think it's commendable. Was the word I was looking for, commendable. There you go. But I'm curious. You know, once you had the good do the goo sorry. Doo, good dog, and you just said, okay.

Kyle Krull - 00:21:50
We're we're gonna make

Carolyn Gahn - 00:21:59
the whole

Kyle Krull - 00:21:59
portfolio region. How did you go about building out that supply chain and making all those transitions and just sourcing regenerative meat at that level?

Carolyn Gahn - 00:22:09
Yeah. I mean and so, I mean, our whole existence has really been based around people in in, you know, lots of fashion. Right? Like, well, of course, we're serving a consumer. We can't do it without our employees, but we, you know, absolutely, like, rely on our partnerships with our suppliers. And our mission, Changing Meat We Eat, is, you know, it's to us, that means, like, moving with the partners, not, like, dropping them, going to find the next, like, shiny thing and picking up, you know, new partners along the I mean, it's just kind of like we're gonna work with our existing suppliers that we've have long standing relationships with to move their farmers in this direction because, you know, they've been working really hard for decades with us and and, you know, on their land. And it's like we recognize the importance of those farmers getting premiums for the work that they've been doing, to take they all are so invested in their land, and that's that's why a farmer would choose to go regen. Right? It's like it's so it's it's really a farmer first concept and, you know, like, to be able to say, alright. You know?

Carolyn Gahn - 00:23:21
Like, we're now gonna recognize all of the work you've are have been doing and want to be doing for your land with a, you know, with a premium. And Mhmm. So, with, you know, with our organic suppliers, they they really loved the rock certification just as a standard. You know, they they weren't they were already, you know, organic, so that whole chain of custody piece, all the paperwork, yes, and that was not scary to them to have to do paperwork on that. What they really liked was, like, the the social welfare piece of rock Yeah. And being able to have added mechanisms in there, you know, it it like, in the work with their farmers that they contract with.

Carolyn Gahn - 00:24:14
So we, you know, we work with, like, the farmer aggregator and, like, they they work with the farmers. But it's like, they wanna take care of the people too, and it just adds this, like, visibility of, like, how are we taking care of people? And so with our nonorganic suppliers so and if I didn't mention this, we have two hot dog lines. We have a nonorganic and an organic, and we've transitioned them both to, certified regen. And so for us, that means the third third party certification. However, with our nonorganic suppliers, you know, they they had a group of a hundred farmers that wanted to do this.

Carolyn Gahn - 00:24:56
And but, like, it's a very specific g you know, geographical location. They have specific environmental issues that are pressing for them that they wanna solve. You know, it they it's like they know better than anyone what needs to be in a standard. And so they came together in, like, a big working group and built out the standard that's, you know, publicly open. It's it's, you know, like, a tiered model to allow farmers to, you know, take the steps to get, get higher. And it it fits in with the the bigger business model that they have together.

Carolyn Gahn - 00:25:46
So it's like, the, you know, the supplier has they have various tiers of products that they sell. Like, so they can do conventional and, like, work farmers up into, like, the higher premium categories with adding standards. And so the whole thing is about, like, just bringing farmers forward. And, then with yeah. So with the nonorganic, standard, it's like then you give that to a third party to then do the auditing. So it's, you know, it's not, you know, just any old person in, you know, in the company saying, alright. Check. Box checked.

Carolyn Gahn - 00:26:24
It's, you know, a third party that's going out and checking. And so that was a situation that really worked for the farm farmers, and, you know, made a ton of sense for them. And, again, like like you're talking about with the carcass utilization piece, I mean, that is it's gotta make economical sense. Like, if they can't move the rest of the animal, it's they put all this effort and money in, and if they can't get a premium on the whole thing, it's it just that it all breaks down, like, economically. And so I love what you just said, and, I mean, I have loved that story that, you know, Kettle and Fire is this awesome brand, like, the bones. We've also, you know, worked with fashion brands, and, you know, that's an awesome story too because they'll say the same thing.

Carolyn Gahn - 00:27:17
It's like buying hides, like, no one's gonna change their production system and, you know, standards to get a certified regen hide. You know what I mean? It's kinda they gotta sell the meat. So, but being able to partner up with, you know, across the, you know, different industries to you know, because we're all creating this new supply chain, and we all have to kinda go together to make sure it's balanced. And there is a market for those hides, and there is, like, you know, a pet food company, that that is buying. So it's like that's how this is sustainable, and we feel, like, also accountable to making sure that all all those pieces get put together because we have asked our farmers to do this.

Carolyn Gahn - 00:28:01
So we need to make sure it's gonna work for them as a holistic system.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:28:22
Mhmm. I mean, just the amount of people and groups and organizations that we've already mentioned in this conversation that have to matrix with each other to make this happen. Right? Like, the ranchers, the aggregator, you know, the aggregators that they work with, the processors, the certifiers, your brand, the other brands inside of Applegate. I'm sure it's the marketing team, it's the sourcing team, it's you and your team, it's, you know, operations. Like,

Kyle Krull - 00:28:50
can you

Anthony Corsaro - 00:28:50
just speak to the insanity that that probably creates and the complexity and and maybe illustrate some of the workflows to actually make something like this come to life, like, in a package product on the shelf?

Carolyn Gahn - 00:29:04
Yeah. It's a lot. It's definitely a lot. I mean, I I, I like I said, I don't think we really because our we're already full of standards. Like, we have the NASCAR package

Kyle Krull - 00:29:17
on our turf.

Carolyn Gahn - 00:29:17
Like, we have and so we're no strangers to, like, these complicated supply chains that, like, really, you really put yourself in a box with every standard you have, which is okay. It just requires, like, a ton of planning. And so Mhmm. You know, I think, just adding a new one, I don't think we understood how it would become so much more complicated. But it it yeah. It really I don't and I honestly can't even put my finger on why it's been, really complicated, but it's taken everybody in our company. It's taken everyone in the you know, our suppliers.

Carolyn Gahn - 00:30:00
But I mean, all the partners involved have, been doing a lot, just from compliance to, you know, getting all of the right every single supply chain

Anthony Corsaro - 00:30:20
Mhmm.

Carolyn Gahn - 00:30:21
Stop point has to be now, you know, certified or have a a check-in there. Right? That that product has been sep you know, separated. It hasn't been blended with anything. It's, and so when you add in freezers and, you know, temperers, I mean, you you add in every truck. It's like, okay. You know, here's another stop point. We gotta account for this. But then on the, you know, on the quality side, and this isn't really very different from just what we deal with on a day to day, especially with, you know, things like like beef, hot dogs where there's a very specific ratio of, you know, lean to fat that we have to have.

Carolyn Gahn - 00:30:47
It's in our, you know, in our formula if it's, you know, not that formula. It just doesn't the recipe doesn't work. So

Anthony Corsaro - 00:31:17
Right.

Carolyn Gahn - 00:31:18
You know, when we have very limited supply already, if that ratio is wrong, it's like you can't just take you know, in another scenario, let's say organic say we had too much lean meat and not enough fat in the ratio. Well, we we could use our other supplier that was organic to buy the fat and blend that in. But with regen, it's like there isn't more supply just floating around of regen organic

Kyle Krull - 00:31:55
Yeah.

Carolyn Gahn - 00:31:55
Beef fat. So it's just stuff like this. Right? Like, you don't you can't really plan for any of this, but, I guess that's this is another proof point of, like, we need more. We need more volume. Like, we just need all of this to to transition so that more products can can be out there.

Kyle Krull - 00:32:20
Yeah. I absolutely just wanna double down on the we need more, like Yeah. For so many reasons that we can get into later. But I think you spoke to the end result of the complexity, and that was hot dog dreams slash potentially nightmares.

Carolyn Gahn - 00:32:32
Yeah. I thought when you said nightmares.

Kyle Krull - 00:32:35
Yeah. I I picked up where you threw it down. I got it. I know. I mean, unless you really like hot dogs, you could have hot dog dreams, but it sounds kinda netmarish. I'm really curious. I wanna I wanna kind of circle back to the two different certifications. I think that the certification landscape today in the regenerative movement is so contentious, and there's some pretty die hard camps a lot of the time. And it's Yeah. Pretty rare to have an organization with multiple different regenerative certifications. It's not unheard of, but it's rare.

Kyle Krull - 00:33:01
And I wanna make sure that we talk about why it was important to Applegate to have Regenerist Certification on both the organic and the nonorganic piece. Can you speak a little bit about that?

Carolyn Gahn - 00:33:20
Yeah. I mean, it so I guess it's just as a basic, any any claim we make or, you know, anything we're gonna promise, we we just have to have a third party certification on it because, without a third party, it's just too we're too we're since we're not on the farm every day, it's just it is the only way to ensure what we're, you know, what we say is, you know, happening. Not that we don't trust anyone. It's just we're too far removed to be able to, just like, we're not the farmers. Right? So Mhmm.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:34:03
We we forgot to mention that legal was also part of that matrix of of people involved.

Carolyn Gahn - 00:34:07
Right.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:34:08
I'm sure they like third party third party validation of claims.

Carolyn Gahn - 00:34:13
Well, you know, I think, like, there's regenerative practices, which are super important and can happen in so many different types of agricultural environments. It does not it's not the same as a regenerative certification, but still important, and it it's a pathway to, you know, regenerative. And so I think, like, for us, and look, I'll I'll say we're still on a journey to, you know, look at what this looks like with other species. Like, can you really have a, completely, you know, a uniform umbrella, you know, standard that fits with chicken, pork, you know, row crops. Like, you know, we're still working through that. But with beef is, like, we know the things that have to be there in a standard. And so we first and foremost, we wanna make sure farms have a written documented plan, that will allow for that continuous improvement.

Carolyn Gahn - 00:35:06
And that, again, another benefit of the actual certification is this process that requires, like, data checking and check ins and, like, all the things that allow that improvement to actually happen. And then, you know, like, for the other pillars, it's you know, the animals are for us, have to be part of the equation. So

Anthony Corsaro - 00:35:48
Right.

Carolyn Gahn - 00:35:49
You know, if some and I can't you know, I don't have any examples. But, like, if a standard was written for only crop production or something and didn't have, you know, a a good documented process for how animals are incorporated into that, then it it just doesn't make sense for what we're trying to do. So we you know, that's what we were looking for. And then, like, having, metrics around soil, water, and community, were really kind of the key things. But the acknowledgment that, each farmer group is in a different place in the world, and they have very specific needs. So, you know, I think when we that's another goal is just to get like, take into account the geographical location. And maybe it just doesn't look the same everywhere, and we have to be in tune with all where it's all coming from so we can best design the system that works for those those farmers.

Carolyn Gahn - 00:36:44
And well, and we like, that that's another we don't wanna be designing the system. We wanna be leaning on experts and actual farmers to design the system, and we wanna make sure they know we are a buyer of, like, what comes off of that. And so, we can push and be that market signal. But, like, we don't claim that we're not gonna we're gonna not claim to be experts, and another reason why we rely on third party programs to, have that all laid out in a way that makes sense.

Kyle Krull - 00:37:36
Totally totally makes sense. And I think what's so cool to me and what's so important is that Applegate is not only striving for the best of the best with the ROC certification, but they're also making regenerative products accessible with the non organic regenerative certification. Accessible and still high bar, still high integrity. And again, I think it's rare for an organization to do both at the same time. And I think AC and I, we talked about it on a lot of the episodes, like both really need to happen at the same time. And it's really cool to see that happening under one organization. You know, we touched a little bit before on how the goo goo the man, I'm really struggling with

Carolyn Gahn - 00:38:15
You can call it the goo goo dog. I think that's the goo

Kyle Krull - 00:38:18
goo dog. Yeah. There you go. I was also thinking to myself earlier, like, we need we need a lean dog. Somebody needs to make a lean dog, like a a less fat dog. But we talked about the goo goo dog, which now sounds like goo goo dolls, which is no. I did that one on purpose. I know. But we talked about how consumers didn't really respond to regenerative at the time. They didn't seem to care all that much about it.

Kyle Krull - 00:38:37
And I know that there's been a pretty interesting nutrient density study taking place within the Applegate ecosystem, and AC and I are both big proponents of the theory that that is what's going to unlock the regenerative interest for the market. So tell us a little bit about that study, why you all are doing it, and what sort of results you can share so far.

Carolyn Gahn - 00:39:04
Yeah. So, yeah, we totally agree. Like, being able to, that's the proof. That's the the golden nugget that we all need is, to kind of, you know, prove out the hypothesis that I mean, everyone that cares about, you know, food and has been in the space for a long time, I think, has just inherently believed that the health of the land is more it creates more nutritious food. And so, you know, if regen is the the the way to improve the land and, you know, like, in the animals and everything that comes off of it, well, we should be able to see that in the nutrition of the meat. And so, you know, this is a lot of people are working on building this, this up, this you know, I think the recognition that that more data is needed in this space to

Kyle Krull - 00:40:08
Yeah.

Carolyn Gahn - 00:40:08
Really make this point about what is nutrition, what is nutrient density, what does that even mean, and what was it before? Like, because we kinda had limited data before and that we all you know, everyone only puts the nutrition panel on pack. Right? But what all was in there? And how do we, like, use that as a baseline to then improve from? And so, yeah, like, there is this, we started out working with, like, on just like, okay. Let's talk to the people in this space.

Carolyn Gahn - 00:40:29
Biomutrient Food Association, was, you know, a great, great partner there, to, like and I don't know if you've heard of their beef study that they, have been running for several years now, to take, you know, a sample of manure, a sample of soil, and a sample of meat and really, like, kinda start to create that correlation, looking at the data and create that baseline. And so we, you know, started, you know, testing our product, and, you know, gathering some data there. But then we, I guess, it was about a year and a half ago now, launched a human health study with the Hormel Institute, which is, a separate institute, not related to Hormel. It just the name kinda started from, you know, Hormel Funds, but it's a separate they do a lot of cancer research. And so we worked with them to develop a study that would measure human health biomarkers when the study participants consumed a diet of grass fed organic regenerative beef versus conventional beef.

Kyle Krull - 00:41:56
I don't mean to interrupt, but I'm just sad that I wasn't part of that study on the regenerative side. You know? Like, oh, yeah. Pay me to eat, like, the best meat around and take my blood test? Sure. Cool. Sign me up.

Carolyn Gahn - 00:42:08
Well, I will say that we had to we had to make all the meals and, like, freeze them. Wow. So everybody was eating the same thing. And I'll also say that the study was run-in the Midwest, and one of the criteria for the participants was prediabetic. So we are we were already so we kind of had to, I mean, they like, tenderloin steak wasn't a part of the, you know, part of the study. Right. Right. But, yeah. So we're kinda coming up at the tail end of that, and they're, like, in the process of bringing all the data together to see what what does it show?

Carolyn Gahn - 00:42:44
What it you know? It was, you know, a big enough sample to help us understand where to go next once we get the information. Like, is this what question marks are there still you know, do we still have after seeing this, and where do we do more research the next time? Yeah. So, like, hopefully, it gets us on the right track, but it's definitely I don't know. When you start thinking about nutrient density, you're like, wow.

Carolyn Gahn - 00:43:18
We are all in it for the long haul. Like, this is not something that's gonna be solved tomorrow, which we all wish it it could all be there and all the data's there and all the, you know, science has been done. But that's just not the case. I think, you know, that's another area where I think brands can really come together, and invest together in because research is freaking expensive, guys. Like, it's like and we can't assume someone else is gonna do it. So Right.

Carolyn Gahn - 00:43:54
Like, what like, let's all kinda not work in silos and, like, what other questions and things do we need to be testing from the consumer side? Like, there's, you know, a lot being gathered from just, like, the lab samples of the meat itself or the food itself. But what about the person eating it?

Anthony Corsaro - 00:44:19
That's why I was most excited when you initially talked to me about the human health trial as we went into climate day prep. Carolyn is like, that is actually the holy grail. So it's not just testing the product, it's testing the effect on the human beings that consume it, which we can all, I think, learn from, like, what we've seen happen in the supplement space. They back a lot of things up with clinical trials. And I'm not an expert there, but I would assume, like, it drives a lot of customer attention and adoption and credibility. And Mhmm.

Kyle Krull - 00:44:50
I I

Anthony Corsaro - 00:44:50
think that's a safe assumption just based on how much you see it and how many labs do the testing and all the things. And if we can find a way to do that with food and beverages that are linked to re to Regen and prove what we all assume, I think that has a powerful effect with the consumer. But with that said, it's also, like, back to the original point we're making around kind of the decision fatigue and just the overwhelm. The average consumer, do they even have the, like, bandwidth to entertain that level of data and nuance? And Mhmm. I walked into Whole Foods yesterday, and there was a single brand that makes a single ingredient SKU. They had a conventional version, an organic version, and a rock version all right next to each other that all were separated by $2 in the SRP.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:45:27
And I'm like, man, you're really making it hard here for a consumer to just understand all of this and and really make the best decision. So I love that y'all have really eliminated that with the hot dog choices. Right? And it's just the the typical bifurcation that the natural shopper would see, which is organic, non organic. Mhmm. But when you talk to the marketing team about, like, what you guys are gonna do now before the nutrient density data is there, before the human health trial data is there, I think you mentioned in a previous conversation that, like, consumers understand biodiversity.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:45:50
They understand bumblebees and pollinators. What what is your marketing team, like, focusing on as y'all start having these regenerative SKUs hit shelf at retail, like, via social or or in in store from a promo perspective?

Carolyn Gahn - 00:46:18
Yeah. Yeah. And, we're definitely still trying to land on the best, you know, the best approach with consumers. But, you know, with beef, I think it's it it's kind of, a good place to start because consumers you know, grass fed was always on the label, and that is a claim that consumers really are looking for. I mean, that's a big priority for them. And Right. So they're already, like, kinda there with this because they're connecting grass fed with their own nutrition. And so, you know, I think, like, what are those kind of proxies that we can build out further? And, you know, when I think about it, it's like, have we all, like, really told the best story about grass fed?

Carolyn Gahn - 00:46:59
Like, I think there's more we could unpack there.

Kyle Krull - 00:47:09
Yeah.

Carolyn Gahn - 00:47:09
And, like, we could talk about the omega three six ratio, that in the grass fed context, even though it's like the nutrient density conversation, but they're already kind of at the table. So maybe, you know, that's a, you know, good proxy for beef. For other things, it's like what do consumers really understand and care about? And it's you know, they get biodiversity. They get wildlife. Like, they get that, you know, there's a balance in nature. And and so I think, like, the the pollinator biodiversity conversation is and I wanna be careful because I don't wanna simplify. Right?

Carolyn Gahn - 00:47:43
Like, we don't wanna be totally, like, simplifying a really complex topic. But, like I said, like, I do think it's a farmer first concept, and there's we all, like, kind of went pretty far in, like, the consumer, what's on pack. But it's like, maybe we were Yeah. Talking about that too early because there's still a lot of work to be done on the farmers, you know, the farm side of things. Mhmm. So, like, making sure we don't lose sight of that, that it's like we actually have to get the the land piece really moving forward.

Carolyn Gahn - 00:48:24
So that, you know and I think there will be a lot more to talk about after, like, we get the the volume and more people on board. But we you know, I think supporting unpack, if we are thinking about unpack and telling a story, like, supporting copy, like, not just a certification, is really important. So, like, you know, for us and, like, you know, with the hot dog labeling and do good dog, it's like, we we want consumers to know that they can do good by buying this hot dog. And we don't need them to understand all of the, science behind soil health. But, like, you know, if if you know that you can do good and this is ridiculously delicious, like, boom. Like, we're good.

Carolyn Gahn - 00:49:21
But it's gotta, you know, like, it's it's gotta, like, signify, like, flavor and taste and the things that they're looking for, right, to be able to to sell it.

Kyle Krull - 00:49:43
Yeah. I really appreciated that answer because it it in a way, it synthesizes all of the complexity in this messaging and and marketing piece because it is nuanced. It is complicated for consumers to understand that it needs to be relatively simple, but brands wanna be authentic and tell the real story. It also has to taste good. You know, you you hit all the boxes, and it's really hard for any brand in particular, like these small startup CPGs that don't have the budget and the larger brands like Applegate and Hormel to try to figure out, like, how do we do this the right way? Yeah. But I really like what you said about the proxies for, like, Grass Fed, for example. And as you mentioned, though, I was thinking to myself, like, okay.

Kyle Krull - 00:50:15
Like, why did consumers resonate so much with grass fed? And was it because they understood inherently that cows are supposed to eat grass? Mhmm. And because of that, they assume they're a healthier animal. So I I wanna eat that animal. And then I think about, okay, what are some other claims that have really seemed to proliferate in the past, you know, five, ten years and pasture raised eggs in particular come to mind?

Kyle Krull - 00:50:35
So it's almost it makes me think, like, do we spend more time understanding what consumers think they know about those two claims and then try to take whatever that mechanism is and apply it towards regenerative claims. And maybe that's a path to simplification in an authentic way that consumers can understand and and could move the needle.

Carolyn Gahn - 00:51:03
Yeah.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:51:05
Yeah. I just to just to attack onto that, I had the same reaction to the grass fed thing, and I was honestly shocked that we've never put two and two together that, like, it is a a really good proxy for regen. And in my head, I made a mental note of, like and it took us twenty years. Like

Carolyn Gahn - 00:51:19
Right.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:51:20
In all these conversations we've had, we, you know, we talked to, you know, Jenny and Will from White Oak two weeks ago or whatever it was, and they're like, yeah. We started, like, selling grass fed beef and talking about it in two thousand and two. It's 2025. And, like, finally, it has some, what I would call mainstream resonance. So I think we just need to acknowledge that it's gonna take time. Right?

Carolyn Gahn - 00:51:38
Right. Yeah. And I also think it's, you know, we have to acknowledge, like, when you talk about the the confusion that consumers would, you know, tryna, like, decipher. Well, like, they're seeing regenerative in the middle center store. They see it on, you know, processed products, and then they go and they see it on, you know, milk. And then they go and they see it on eggs, and they see it on produce. And it's like

Kyle Krull - 00:52:03
Tortilla chips. You know what? They they they see

Anthony Corsaro - 00:52:05
it on skin care. They see it on stem cell injections. They see it on regenerative business principles. Like, it's everywhere now.

Carolyn Gahn - 00:52:12
Yeah. So, like, what are they thinking? They're like, how how does this I don't even know what this word means. I don't know why I'm seeing it on all these different types of products. Like, they probably, like they're like, okay. I think it means this. And then they go see it on some other product that has nothing to do with what they thought. And they're like, well, I don't freaking know. Like, now my whole hypothesis is thrown.

Carolyn Gahn - 00:52:30
So I think we have to just, like, acknowledge, like, how fast we kind of, like, ask them to get get to where we're at without providing. And I'm no fault it you know, to brands or anybody. It just kind of maybe is the same as how other certifications rolled out or it's just kinda chaos for a little bit. And then

Anthony Corsaro - 00:52:53
Yeah. That just came I think so.

Kyle Krull - 00:52:56
In addition to the myriad of ways people are introduced to this term that you just laid out, each one of those brands, companies, categories may have a different attribute that they're linking towards regenerative. You know what I mean? So to your point, the consumers gotta be overwhelmed and confused. And I I would love to figure out, like, how we get access to that data. So to your point, like, what are they thinking? What do they think this term means, and how can it apply to all of these different things?

Carolyn Gahn - 00:53:21
Yeah. Yeah. And we definitely in our consumer research, we definitely got that back. Like, they you know, there's a disconnect between the products they see it on. You know? So, I mean, not only is it a concept that that's difficult to understand, but the fact that it's on all these different things. I mean, that was feedback we we got, in our research. Well, you know, and we've, you know, I think we, all have seen this, but just rock is is great because it's sitting right there next to organic. Organic is in the name. And consumers already understand, and they buy organic because of what it does for their own health. Like, they're buying it for the health of their family, and then, you know, they're less so about, you know, some of the environmental pieces, but it like, I think they're familiar with it enough to know that there's this environmental component.

Carolyn Gahn - 00:54:03
So having rock associated with organic just helps consumers, like, know there's a benefit to them.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:54:26
Yeah. It's it's a massive advantage, I think, for rock as a certification body and for the brands and products that have the seal, like you said, because it's one of the most trusted and recognized labels in food in in the country. And I also think that entire conversation that we just had underpins, like, shameless self promotion, like, what we're trying to talk about with the coalition, which is if these groups that are talking about this thing differently and should talk about it differently based on their ingredient and their products don't come together at the high level of consumer awareness from a literacy standpoint and work with the retailers to build that, like, we're never gonna bridge that gap to where it becomes still this rightfully disparate thing at the at the point of purchase by the individual product, but has this overall easy to understand harmonized halo on top of it. Mhmm. So yeah. I mean, we're we're the people trying to make that happen. So it's easy for me to biasly say we gotta do that, but, like, I just every conversation we have, it feels like that's a it's like, yes.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:55:20
We have to do that.

Carolyn Gahn - 00:55:27
Yeah. Well and I also just wanna add, like, I don't wanna, only acknowledge the consumer facing products in this because we need all food to be regen, not just the ones that have labels on it. And so Yeah. How do we talk to farmers who who knows that they're know, what they're growing is never gonna go into a packaged product?

Anthony Corsaro - 00:55:52
Right.

Carolyn Gahn - 00:55:53
What's the benefit to them, to do all this work and make sure there's still a premium in there for them? Mhmm. And, like, who do we need to educate, in that supply chain to well, it's and this is ends up being the same supply chain. Right? Like, how do we educate everybody, who's off taking from that the importance of, you know, communicating it in the right way?

Kyle Krull - 00:56:19
Yeah. Totally agree. And I think, you know, we don't get there without the early adopters. Right? So it's it's companies like Applegate who are leading the way to hopefully pave the path to a potential future where that does take place. And if and when it does, I really think that we need to, like, totally flip the paradigm on how our food system works. And this is a pipe dream that will I don't wanna sound, like, too, non hopeful, but but we'll probably never come to fruition. But, like, right now, we tax all of the people doing it the right way. You've gotta pay more for certifications, more for extra labels. You know?

Kyle Krull - 00:56:45
There's there's so many tax yeah. It it costs so much more and it's so much less profitable to do the right thing, and the consumer has to pay so much more. And really, like, at some point in time, if we can invert that scenario into your point, Caroline, like, all food should be regenerative, and that there shouldn't have to be all of these label claims. And if you're doing it the wrong way, like, hey. This this has this glyphosate. They use pesticides. You know, like, imagine a world where that took place.

Kyle Krull - 00:57:11
And I think it would be so much easier for consumers to make the right decisions and to send market signals back to the farmers like, hey. This is how we want you growing food. And I would love to just kinda I don't wanna say fast forward and live there because, I mean, the journey is part of the the experience. Right? But it would be so cool to live in that world.

Carolyn Gahn - 00:57:35
Yeah. I totally agree. I mean, it's really comes back to externalized costs and why we're in some of the mess we're in. And, yeah, I mean, it it shouldn't so, like, small and they're mostly small brands that that are mission driven that are taking on a bigger problem in the world. Right? Like and it shouldn't be that, they that costs more. Like, it's like, it shouldn't be cheaper to ignore problems. Yeah.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:58:11
Or create them.

Carolyn Gahn - 00:58:12
Yeah. Or create them. And that's Yeah. Yeah. I mean so I totally agree. It's it's a accountability, like, values accountability, but also on paper. Like, we need to do better accounting on true cost of of food.

Kyle Krull - 00:58:30
Yeah. No doubt. Well, I do wanna pivot a little bit, and let's talk about, you know, the majority of today's conversation has been about the Applegate beef hot dogs. I'm curious if you can share anything about, like, what the future of regenerative is for Applegate. If that you you kind of alluded to the fact that you're trying to figure out other animal systems, are there other beef skews, or any other things that might come out with a regenerative cert. Like, what's down the regenerative pipeline for Applegate?

Carolyn Gahn - 00:58:55
Yeah. Yeah. That is that

Anthony Corsaro - 00:58:56
isn't top secret because I'm sure some of it you can't share. But

Carolyn Gahn - 00:59:01
Yeah. I mean, no. It's really, again, it's the like, we're definitely on a journey. We're not claiming we've, you know, solved this. And I I mean, I've found a lot of, you know, solidarity in talking with other brands, that are in the same you know, asking the same questions, so that we can kind of, you know, really think about this in the right way. You know, with beef and, like, you know, it's grass fed beef is a is a closed loop system. It's you know, there aren't really a bunch of inputs being used in that system. And when, you know, other species, that are not ruminants, they need inputs, for, you know, protein requirements and things like that. It gets just so much more complicated so quickly, to think about what does it mean to be regenerative and how where should we focus? I mean, that's kind of where we're at.

Carolyn Gahn - 00:59:58
It's like, is when we think about, you know, others' pork and poultry, it's like it's more about the the feed that they're eating. And the most of the land used in that system is gonna be to grow the feed. And so when we think about, like, where our focus should be, that is there's so many ways to to tackle that. And I and I think that's kind of, like, where we're at now is, like, what is the biggest problem with feed? We're not, like, trying to pedal to the metal, try to get regenerative, you know, certified on everything. Like, it's, again, like, it's not the most important thing to have the seal on it.

Carolyn Gahn - 01:00:44
So what problem environmental problem, food system problem is the biggest issue, like, when we think about feed? I mean, there's a like, there's so many things. Right? So it's like, we wanna talk to, you know, the the experts on the ground in the geography that we're looking. It needs to be specific, to where we're searching from and identify what that is. Like, is it water quality?

Carolyn Gahn - 01:01:12
Is it, is it just, like, finding alternative marketable crops that can fit into a rotation and make sure the soil is covered over the winter. You know? Like, what would have the biggest impact? So I think I mean and then, you know, like, just, you know, cropping rotation is, like, three years. Right. So one, if we're buying one year harvest out of that, what does a farmer that's trying to move to regenerative do with the other two cycles?

Carolyn Gahn - 01:01:49
Like, is somebody promoting regenerative practices on those off years? Like, we have to partner with others on this. So, yeah, I I'm not really directly answering your question, but it's because it's, like, complicated.

Kyle Krull - 01:02:19
I I think you are, and you're acknowledging why it's such a difficult question to answer, which I think is really important. And when I think about how we consume food today when we go to the grocery store and we purchase a product, it's so easy to forget how complicated all of this is. And I can't help but think back to, like, you know, in my mind, like, how did we get here? And it's specialization and, centralization. Right? Whereas, you know, maybe a hundred years ago, if somebody's raising chickens, they're growing their own chicken feed, and many more people are raising chickens, and you don't have these centralized systems, and nobody's super specialized. And now trying to figure out, like, how do we do this the right way in this specialized centralized model becomes an increasingly difficult question to answer. Mhmm. Yeah.

Kyle Krull - 01:02:55
I I

Anthony Corsaro - 01:03:06
like how you led with, like, context and producer dynamics and, like, actually solving problems on the ground. I think it'd be super easy for someone like Applegate to say, hey. We're one of the top premium meat brands. We think ROQ is the future of premium meat. We just wanna get as many ROQ skews created as possible because it's a very consumer driven kind of thing or whatever. Like, it's it's this much of a premium price and there's this much lift. Instead, you're like, no.

Anthony Corsaro - 01:03:24
These other, you know, monogastric species, there's all these dynamics with feed, and that affects the acreage, and that affects, like, land transition and farmer economics. So I really appreciate that you're kinda leading with that, because I think it's gonna fundamentally solve the problems better and for a longer term. And two, like, if we don't solve that, the the product on shelf is is a fool's errand anyway because it's just not gonna last or it's not gonna it's not gonna really be successful. So

Carolyn Gahn - 01:03:54
yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's so it's so true. I mean and this again, this is where, it has to be a collaborative thing. It's, and then yeah. That's why it's, like, so complicated and hard because it we need to have standards. Standards are super important, and they need the standard is a standard because it's the same everywhere. Right? Mhmm. So it's just like, shoot. But, like, now we're talking about a concept that is inherently not the same everywhere. Yeah. So what do we do with this? Correct.

Kyle Krull - 01:04:36
Yeah. Well, and that's that's part of why I think that the savory model, the EOV is so interesting because it focuses on, okay, like, we understand context is different, and we're gonna focus on the outcome. So the practices may vary given these different animals, crop types, physical geographies, soil types, whatever. But we're gonna focus on the outcomes and make sure that whatever practices are taking place in a regenerative fashion, we should be seeing these increases in specific metrics like soil organic matter, water infiltration rate, and so on and so forth. Yeah. So that's a that's a really interesting model. I I'm inspired by that framework they put together.

Carolyn Gahn - 01:05:10
Mhmm. Yeah. I do love the EOB model, for that exact reason. And just having the outcomes built in, you know, to the the process, it's all about the outcomes. And I you know, like, I think, it's all such a long game when we talk about outcomes. So everyone everyone's gotta be a lit like, think a little differently about how to communicate this if not like, oh, we've improved soil carbon by x amount this year. I mean, it's just, like, not that short of a timeline. Right? So Right. How do we talk about, like, the goal the journey to the outcomes in a way that's compelling and really can help people understand what's going on?

Anthony Corsaro - 01:06:03
Yeah. Carolyn, this has been a super fun conversation. We will end it with the final question that we ask everybody, which is kind of a daunting one, but we've been prepping prepping you the whole episode. How do we get ReGen Brands to have 50% market share by 2050?

Carolyn Gahn - 01:06:20
Oh, wow. Oh, jeez. I guess I would say, you know, farmer first. Like, keep the farmer first mentality. Like, let's do what works best for farms, and then it kind of will normalize. Like, it should be normal in the supply chain to do that. And to do that, we need scale.

Kyle Krull - 01:06:53
I don't disagree at all with what you're sharing, and I think it's so refreshing to hear. I mean, Applegate might be the largest brand we've had on or one of the certainly, like, top five.

Anthony Corsaro - 01:07:02
Probably. Yeah.

Kyle Krull - 01:07:03
And for your answer to be farmer first, I think speaks to the level of authenticity, in your dedication to this movement. I think consumer is super important. But to your point, like, if the farmers aren't growing it, it's never gonna happen. Right? So whatever we do, like, we've gotta we gotta focus on that. So I I just appreciate that and the fact that that interest is coming from Applegate to me. I mean, like like I mentioned when we started the episode, I'm already a fan of the brand. I'm gonna have to start buying, like, two packets of pepperoni for every pizza now and just double it.

Kyle Krull - 01:07:30
I don't know what I'm gonna do to support, but,

Anthony Corsaro - 01:07:35
You gotta buy some hot dogs, bro. Come on.

Kyle Krull - 01:07:37
I need a lean dog, man. I don't I can't

Carolyn Gahn - 01:07:39
eat that much fat.

Kyle Krull - 01:07:40
Oh,

Anthony Corsaro - 01:07:40
you're fine. You're in great shape. You can afford it.

Kyle Krull - 01:07:44
Fair. Fair deal. But, yeah, I really appreciate that answer.

Carolyn Gahn - 01:07:48
Well %. Yeah. No. I appreciate all the the work you guys have done to bring this movement really forward. You know, I I think it's it's collectives like this that really allow this to to grow and blossom and, you know, we're very thankful that you've done all this work to get us here. So, thanks so much. And I'm I mean, Kyle, I'm I'm gonna be going to get some broth and making some goo goo soup. Yeah. So

Kyle Krull - 01:08:25
we'll we'll we'll connect after the episode. I'll I'll send some your way, and we can do a a goo goo collab. You know? Yes. Love that.

Anthony Corsaro - 01:08:34
Thank you, Carolyn. This is awesome. Appreciate it.

Carolyn Gahn - 01:08:36
Yeah. No. Thank you guys so much.

Anthony Corsaro - 01:08:41
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