#79 - Ben Mand @ Guayakí

Episode Recap:

ReGen Brands Recap #79 - Guayakí’s Market Driven Regeneration™ - (RECAP LINK)

Episode Transcript:

Disclaimer: This transcript was generated with AI and is not 100% accurate.

Kyle Krull - 00:00:15
Welcome to The ReGen Brands Podcast. This is a place for consumers operators and investors to learn about the consumer brands, supporting regenerative agriculture, and how they're changing the world. This is your host, Kyle, joined by my co-host, AC, who's gonna take us into the episode.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:00:33
On this episode, we have Ben Mand, who is the CEO at Guayakí. Guayakí is supporting regenerative agriculture with their various Yerba Mate based products that are farmed in regenerative organic systems. Yerba mate is a tree of the Holly family that is native to the Atlantic Forest of South America, and the consumption of Yerba mate is related to the unique relationship between indigenous peoples and their forced environments developed over millennia. On this episode, we learn how Ben has satisfied his appetite for impact across a wide array of brands, and he shares more about Guayakí's market driven regeneration approach, detailing what that means for their farming partners, their business, and their consumers. Tons of fun stuff in this 1, folks. Let's dive in. What's up, everybody? Welcome back to another episode of The ReGen Brands Podcast.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:01:15
Very excited today to have our friend, Ben, from Guayakí with us. So welcome, Ben.

Ben Mand - 00:01:29
Hey. How's it going, guys?

Kyle Krull - 00:01:31
We're doing great. We're stoked to have you. I didn't tell you this when we were doing the pre prep stuff, but I used to represent Guayakí back in, like, 2012 2013. Oh. My number is. I forgot about that. And and it was 1 of the first brands that I felt like that I I had the owner of selling, that really felt like they're making an impact on the planet in a positive way. So excited to have you on and to and to share the Gulackey story, But for those who, I mean, you're a behemoth of a brand. Right?

Kyle Krull - 00:01:51
I I'm sure everybody's familiar, but for those who are unfamiliar, give us a quick lay at the land. What sort of SKUs do you produce where can people find you today?

Ben Mand - 00:02:06
Well, Kyle, I think, you you might have to you you're gonna participate in in doing the session. Too. So that this might be 1 of the first times where I'm like, I'm being interviewed. I'm like, you know what? I'm either gonna have a fact checker, right, right online with us, or you're gonna join in telling this story.

Kyle Krull - 00:02:22
Well, let me let me set the table up. I'll I'll take a low level merchandiser in 2012 2013. I can give you, like, the a real deep dive into, like, what was happening at Whole Foods And Mothers market. But that's about it. So that's all we got.

Ben Mand - 00:02:34
Yeah. Alright. So now I even forgot. Okay. So you wanna know the product it's up that we sell. I was I was like, I was like, alright. I've got somebody else who's gonna do this with me. Right, Kyle? I mean, they're good. And then you asked me the question.

Ben Mand - 00:02:43
I wasn't even listening. Right? I was like, hey, you know, so good. So, yeah, excited to be here. And, and I've been with Guayke for about 3 months now. And, you know, I'll talk a little bit about just the products we have. And then, you know, we can even talk about the origin story.

Ben Mand - 00:02:57
Kyle will probably help me through some of the fuzzy details as I as learned this business. But, yeah, we're we were predominantly sold in North America. So just the the US is obviously the lion's share of our business. In Canada as well. We've got about between 40 50 SKUs. We do everything from loose and then our Yebremate in the tea bags, which is probably what you were very familiar with in those very early days, Kyle.

Ben Mand - 00:03:19
And then we have, the bottles, you know, so certainly, the the yerba mate in the bottles. We've got it in the cans as well. And so that that would be the bulk of our business. The cans being the the lion's share of our business.

Kyle Krull - 00:03:46
Awesome. Yeah. I think at the time of 2012 2013, the cans were just exploding. The glass bottle RTD was ready to go, but the cans were, like, going crazy. And it was so much fun to sell in, like, huge end caps, and all sorts of stuff. And there's 1 1 campaign specifically, but we'll get into that a little bit later, but it was, like, 1 of the coolest campaigns I've been a part of in the natural food industry. So I'm excited to tell that story when the time comes. But, man, my my guy set

Anthony Corsaro - 00:04:14
me up on cliffhangers,

Kyle Krull - 00:04:15
3 minutes into the episode. I love it. Sean, we're doing it.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:04:20
Yeah. Ben, Kyle doesn't consume caffeine. So I gotta come with 2 favorite products on this episode and my 2 favorites are

Ben Mand - 00:04:29
the

Anthony Corsaro - 00:04:29
blue for you and the rebelberry. Those those are my go tos.

Kyle Krull - 00:04:32
Good.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:04:33
Yeah. What's what's your Guayaqui drink of choice over there that you got today.

Ben Mand - 00:04:38
Oh, it's so hard to choose because III consume a lot of different ones. I'm drinking the unsweetened, traditional right now. And that is that is 1 of my favorites. That's probably a

Kyle Krull - 00:04:47
go to

Ben Mand - 00:04:48
for me. I do really like enlightenment. So I'm a very big mint fan. And then, I actually do drink the either the Yerba Mate in the tea bags or loose. So I'll do that oftentimes in the morning. I'll do loose typically on the weekend. Oftentimes when I commute to work, I'll throw a bunch of tea bags in in in, in in with some hot water, and I'll drink that as as I drive to work.

Kyle Krull - 00:05:17
Yeah. And when you go loose, do you do the full gourd with the metal straw? Like, super classic, or are you, like, a different type of consumer?

Ben Mand - 00:05:25
So I do both. Sometimes I do the French press I do a nice present, and and then I'll I'll do some steamed foamed milk with it. So I do a little Mate latte, but, I also do the cord as well. So just depends on kind of the mood I'm in. And and if depending, you know, if there are others and if I wanna make Mate latte or something like that, I personally kinda like lattes, so I like steamed milk with it. So, I like to consume it that way. And there's somebody in our office in in our Venice office, Venice, LA. She makes amazing Monte latte.

Ben Mand - 00:05:51
So anytime she asks me, you know, is a hot tea latte. Do you want to? I'm like, it could be it could be 9 PM at night, and I'm going I'm getting ready to go to bed, but I'm like, yeah, give me 1 of those spots.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:06:14
Yeah. I I would be there as well. That sounds like a great perk to have. Ben, we wanna kind of mentioned you've only been on the job for about 3 months now. We definitely wanna hear kind of what brought you over. We're gonna talk about some things you've done in the past. But just to just a level set for people that aren't as familiar with the brand. What is the origin story? What's the background? I mean, rather established and scaled brand at this point, but What's the what's the origin story?

Ben Mand - 00:06:38
Yeah. So about 28 years ago now, give or take. Wow. And San Luis Obispo, the the the the the origin story is there are 3 main founders. So Alex, who is from Argentina, and, you know, drank Yerba Mante out of the gourd, and he met at David Carr. And then Chris man So those those guys all were the that the the originals. And they met while they're at, you know, university there. And they kinda came into it from from, from different angles. There there is a funny story of just, you know, David was a, a waiter at at a or Alex was a waiter at a restaurant and David was there, with, with the, I think, a a girlfriend and some friends. And so, that's actually the first time that they met. But they they became friends.

Ben Mand - 00:07:27
They, ended up being in various different events, started drinking, you know, Alex introduced them to Yerba Mate and they became fast friends. They started selling it loose. And the early years, and Kyle, you would know this, you know, the early years, it was all loose yerba mate. So it was drinking on the board, and it was brewing lots of yerba mate and sharing it and doing gourd circles. And so early days was on the road in the van sharing and selling then in these specialty shops.

Kyle Krull - 00:08:06
For those who are unfamiliar with the Gord, sorry to interrupt, but just describe the gourd and that whole sort of ceremonial, like, almost a community drinking situation because it's not something here in the states. First time I'd ever seen 1. I remember Mateo Schroeder, who used to work for Waiaki, gave me 1 when I first met him, and he's like, hey. You're you're selling our product now. We want you to have this, like, welcome to the family kind of Right? It was very like it's like, wow. This is amazing.

Kyle Krull - 00:08:22
So tell people about the Gord.

Ben Mand - 00:08:32
Yeah. So and and when I joined, David and I sat down and, you know, during our first update and, you know, we shared a gourd together. So it's, you know, this this small gourd you put in the loose, Mate you kind of shake it on its side so you get it to settle a bit. And then you put the the metal straw, the Mobia in. And you then add hot water. So not super scalding, like, as hot as possible. Right? But you put in hot water We'll let it steep for a little bit and then you you drink it, you turn it and share it, back and forth.

Ben Mand - 00:09:00
And so you're sharing the straw sharing, the gourd. And you just as you have this conversation, you're passing it back and forth. And it's a it's just it's a It's about connection. Right? There's a there's a lot of tradition and it's about community and connection, which is something that's very I think powerful to the brand. And it's something as I as I come in, it has me thinking very differently about how we build the brand how you think about office space, how you think about how we engage and how we do things.

Ben Mand - 00:09:27
It certainly has sparked some ideas on on how we really embrace this, this, this notion of community and connection, which honestly in the world we live in, is feels very lacking at times, you know, this, this notion of connection and and in real life connection, right, beyond just the digital, sense, but, you know, actual human connection and talking and, having a conversation and just finding commonality Like, we we live in a in a world that's, you know, more divided than we would choose and and would want. So, yeah, so it's you you pass it back and forth. Certainly post COVID or during COVID that, you know, is was a very different thing, you know, of, you know, we we sell a lot more cans and bottles nowadays than we do of the loose, but it is actually starting to really come back for us. I think as as COVID has subsided and people, are, you know, finding their new normal or maybe going back closer to the way life, you know, used to be pre COVID. We're seeing sales have that increase, and it is just a it's a really nice tradition and and and connection, point for people.

Kyle Krull - 00:10:55
So yes. I totally derailed you. But, yeah, back to the origin worries.

Ben Mand - 00:10:59
Yeah. So back to the origin story.

Kyle Krull - 00:11:01
So all my fault. All my fault.

Ben Mand - 00:11:03
No. No. No. This is this is good. So, they were selling loose. And in those early days. And and and interesting, like, you know, that there are a number of businesses out there that are pretty seasonal. Alright. You know, ready to drink beverages typically do better during the summer. You still sell lots of beverages in the winter, but you sell more in the summer. Soup.

Ben Mand - 00:11:15
You sell lots in the winter a little less of the summer. Mhmm. Pie crust, you sell lots during the holidays. You know, thanks getting crisp. But you sell very little, outside of that, that, that period. So everything's a little bit seasonal and certainly with hot beverage.

Ben Mand - 00:11:31
So, like, you know, that Lucy or even Tees and things, oftentimes, the the sales are a little less during the summer, strong in the winter. And so 1 of the things that they they realized is, like, you know, they really wanted to do, you know, like, is there a way to brew this and actually sell it as a ready to drink? And so that's when they started coming out. They had the glass and then launched the cans as as Kyle has pointed out. And that's when the business really took off, right, because it's You now are not dealing with, like, loose that you put into this cord and shake and have a special straw that has, you know, little little holes in the bottom that the, you know, the Yerba Monte does not flow into the straw with hot water. It doesn't fit the cup holder off at times because it's a weird shade.

Ben Mand - 00:12:18
So, you know, it's not exactly meant for, you know, portable consumption and, you know, we're a very portable, convenience driven society. And so, that's when the business really took off, which is just, you know, kind of an exciting thing. You know, using the year, but Monte and now, and and having a business that has an element and that is backbone being about connection in in that tradition, but then having the very portable options for people to consume and enjoy anywhere, anytime.

Kyle Krull - 00:12:53
Totally makes sense. And, Ben, I'm really curious to get just a little bit of your hit 3 prior to Guayakí and what it was that was attractive about the brand? Like, why did you decide to make the jump to come over to Guayakí?

Ben Mand - 00:13:04
Yeah. So I'll I'll just say briefly. I would say I grew up in CPG and learning the basics of how to run the business and and all of that while I was at general mills. And while I was at General Mills, I worked across, you know, established businesses to grow, you know, to doing innovation, customer assignments, all different temperature states. And it was just a really good training ground to not only learn the functional aspects of marketing and brand building, but actually you you sit you you you act as like a general manager there and you run the business. And so learned a ton there. And when I was there, 1 of my personal missions was How do I take something that reaches 30, 40, 50 percent of US consumers a year? And how do I make it better? Right? So how do I take something that has such scale, but make it better?

Ben Mand - 00:13:47
And the real trick on those businesses is you report to Wall Street. So you're It's quarter by quarter by court. Right? So

Kyle Krull - 00:14:00
Right.

Ben Mand - 00:14:00
It is you you can't, you know, there there's not really the opportunity to just gonna take a couple years off and, you know, step back and retrench and then do this, whatever. Like, you gotta you gotta keep it going. Right. So, you know, across the businesses, I did things from, you know, eliminating hydrogenated oils to, removing artificial flavors or official colors, removing MSG, doing asylum reduction and sodium. So for me, it was much more about, like, how do I make great tasting products that people can, you know, consume that people can afford and consume at a regular basis, but how do I make them incrementally better? And how do I then, for me there, beyond the health and wellness aspect of it, it was how do I streamline supply chains, which has a, you know, carbon impact? Now the good news about that type of work is it also saves money. And companies are all about, like, how do you drive lean and efficiency?

Ben Mand - 00:14:49
It just so happens. And it also benefits the environment. So things like when I worked on dry dinners, also known as Hamburger helper, Tuna chicken helper. How do you, you know, to there's nothing like tuna helper at 8:30 in the morning, by the way, when you have to do, you know, a a tasting of all the different all the different permutations. I'm like, alright. Gina helper.

Ben Mand - 00:15:16
And, like, tuna helper isn't exactly what I wanna be drinking at 8:30 in the morning, but,

Kyle Krull - 00:15:22
you know,

Ben Mand - 00:15:23
I've done that before. But, like, how do you choose pasta types and work with the r and d to densify the pasta such that it impacts tighter, but it still cooks up the same. And when you pack a tighter, that means you can get, because the whole insight was, I was cubing out trucks, meaning the truck was not full, maxed from a weight standpoint, but it was, you know, as full as it could be. So when you can pack a little bit tighter, you can get into a smaller case. You can maximize your your case, your your cartons in a case, cases on a pallet and pallets on a truck. Right? And so then you and that, you know, just doing some simple things like that, saves 1, 000, 000 of dollars, yeah, annually, from a from a cost standpoint and also reduces your overall carbon impact.

Ben Mand - 00:15:56
So, that was what I did there. But then eventually, I wanted to go to, how do I go to a small company's and now take all the great stuff I learned in a big company and now take something that's small and inherently great. Make it stronger or do whatever you have to do. And now how do you scale that? How do you bring that to millions of people? So I started at plum organics, which is, you know, early childhood nutrition. So anything from baby toddler, kid food, purees, crackers, bars, things like that.

Ben Mand - 00:16:30
There it was all about, like, how do I get fresher better ingredients? How do I incorporate ancient grains and very highly, you know, nutrient dense ingredients into products that were selling to little ones and really teaching, like, food philosophy. Like, the the whole idea of like eating, you know, the rainbow of colors, lots of different textures, lots of different things, and really trying to, you know, tee, you know, help parents build healthy eaters, for life. From there, going to and that was right before I came here to harm this harvest. And so At harmless harvest, another, you know, organic, purpose driven, company. So this whole notion of constructive capitalism the the idea that it's not just investors that should benefit.

Ben Mand - 00:17:21
It should that everybody starting with farmers, everybody you interact all the way through should benefit from the work that you're doing. And so while I was there, really about boy, it was 5 and a half years ago, now that I made the decision to start transitioning that company to reach end owner of organic. And that was, you know, that's a long path. And at that time, that company was not profitable and not growing fast in And so that's a, you know, when you're charged with, you know, improving the financial results of a company to then you know, in month 2, commit the company to fully transitioning to regenerative organic, which you know is gonna cost millions over many years. It is not a decision you take lightly, but, you know, as I spoke to the board, ultimately, It it fits, you know, you have to make, like, running a, an impact, a purpose driven business, you you, you know, you don't make decisions for that drive impact, when it's convenient to you. It's about making the right decision in the moment and then finding a way as a company to make it happen.

Ben Mand - 00:18:32
And it just felt that number 1, it was totally germane to us as a business. But the real interesting thing and important point to remember, and this is for anybody who's thinking about how you run a business is there are real benefits beyond just, like, it's not just like I'm trying to just do good by the environment. I absolutely am. And there are lots of other benefits. 1 is we felt that we could, you know, we have a hard time at at harm us at a hard time from a sourcing standpoint competing with the Chinese who would buy, you know, diamond cut that, buy coconuts and create diamond cut coconuts that they sell in other markets. That had different economic realities and, like, what they could pay for it. So it's really hard from a sourcing standpoint.

Ben Mand - 00:19:16
1 of the issues we're having is just loyalty with farmers. 1 of our stated goals was to raise farmers income by at least 10%. Right? So when you start creating a real benefit by working with farmers, a financial it. And we're having we're doing positive by the environment. But importantly, from a business standpoint, The way regenerative organic works is you're now what you're trying to do is you're trying to build a more biodiverse ecosystem.

Ben Mand - 00:19:40
And that biodiversity is really important to overall health of that ecosystem, including, and very importantly, the soil. Right? So you have the right kind of micro nitrogen micronutrients, the right kind of bacteria. And what happens is that the root structure becomes better. Moisture retention becomes better. And what is the 1 of the top, you know, things that drives, yields with coconuts? It's moisture. Right?

Ben Mand - 00:20:09
And so if if the root structure is better and you have better moisture content, you get more ml's per coconut. So milliliters per coconut. And you have more coconuts per bunch. So there's also long term, a payoff for the business. Right? You drive loyalty with farmers.

Ben Mand - 00:20:24
You get better MLs, better, better, more coconuts per bunch. So you're include you're increasing the supply, but you're also helping farmers because now you have stronger supply. They get to sell more product. And better, you know, even out your economic, your financial security as you move forward. So lots of wins, but also wins for the company. So it be it makes it an easier case to be made.

Ben Mand - 00:20:51
You just have to be willing to make a long term decision in that moment.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:21:00
Yeah. So we'll we'll plug in the show notes the episode with Ally from Harmless Harvest, but she she echoed everything you just said and in spades if you wanna, you know, get all the details. But, like, we titled the recap of the episode why a regenerative is like the right thing to do and good for business, which is so clear that that was the way that y'all really attacked it, you know, while you're there. So to cut you off, but just

Kyle Krull - 00:21:21
Yeah.

Ben Mand - 00:21:21
No. That's good. No. Absolutely. And so while I was at harmless, I definitely, you know, you're you're in a smaller industry. We all know 1 another and you have other brands and products out there that you're really interested in. And I I have known about Guayaqui for years. And had consumed it, admittedly not from the gourd early on. So I'd I'd had drank the cans. Was typically the the the format that I I consumed, but I knew knew about the brand. And I and to me, it was another 1 of those very special brands that has this deep seated purpose.

Ben Mand - 00:21:52
And and it started with the founders early on in both cases. And as a, you know, cut I'm a business person as well. Like, I just felt that there was opportunity. I felt that it had not really realized its full potential. And felt that there was something that I could offer. And so, you know, it was I kept my eye on it and 1 day, I found out that they were looking for a CEO It was literally in an afternoon.

Ben Mand - 00:22:16
I found that out, and I was going to reach out the next day and lo and behold, they reached out to me. And so, you know, I went through that process. And it was I think it's the only time I've ever said this. I remember I talked to the, to the recruiter, and she was like, oh, yeah. I think think they might actually wanna talk to you. And I was and I said, I and I'd normally never say something like this, but I said, they'll definitely wanna talk to me.

Ben Mand - 00:22:43
Like, this job, this is, like, for me and I and like I am like this is this is the opportunity. But you know, when you know it and you know it was 1 that I've been tracking for a while. So, and then the rest was history.

Kyle Krull - 00:23:03
Super appreciate the deep dive for the career path that I end. I what I should say is I'm not trying to take credit for everything that you've done, but, like, my family grew up crushing hamburger helper. Like, we we were like, I mean, 3 to 4 boxes, like, per meal, 2 to 3 times a week. And, like, I mean, beef stroganoff in particular, and cheesy enchilada, those were, like, staples in my youth. I kid you not. When I was a broker, we did plumb organic. I did a ton of work with plum organics, in particular, the launch of the ancient grains with the Greek yogurt, those mixed pouches, which I would consume on a regular basis.

Kyle Krull - 00:23:27
It's also when I was doing Guayaqui. When I was with 30 hands merchandising, we crushed homeless harvests. So you and I have been kindred like spirits in the CPG world for quite some time, and it's so ironic that we're meeting here now to talk about all this. Kyle

Ben Mand - 00:23:47
Kyle, I think you're gonna have to do this interview with me. My yeah. Like, like,

Kyle Krull - 00:23:51
we're doing it together, man.

Ben Mand - 00:23:53
I've got fact checkers on on all levels of my daughter. Did you do consulting as well prior to working at, General Mills products?

Kyle Krull - 00:24:02
Maybe maybe not. I don't know. But long story short, when when I got most excited about when you're talking about Guayakí and is ironic that we started talking about is like, you know, people sit in a circle. It's like this weird leaf that people consume. You're just kinda selling it on the side. Remind me of something else, but what you what you said in particular was, like, your gateway in were the cans. Right? That was, like, your gateway into this particular plant that has this incredible impact.

Kyle Krull - 00:24:23
And you wanna figure out, like, how you can make this plant even more prolific or the brand more prolific than it already is. So I think that's really cool. And I think it's a good way to kind of pivot into, like, what makes the Yerba Monte plant specifically so different from a lot of other plants and tell us a little bit about how, like, it is grown relative to. I I don't know if Guwaki is the only shade grown ever, mate, or there are others who are not shade grown, but, like, talk to us about the plant specifically, and the sort of impact it can have in an environment.

Ben Mand - 00:24:58
Yeah. That's a a great question. So Yirba Mate is it's like a tea in the sense that its leaves are caffeinated. But interestingly, it's not part of the tea family. It's actually part of the Holly family. So it's a totally different species. And so You know, when you think of sources of caffeine, there's 6 main sources of caffeine, there's tea, there's coffee, there's cacao, right? Yurba Mazzi is 1 of them. But not many people are familiar with Yerba Mazzi. It's indigenous down to in South America, in the Atlantic Forest. So often consumed in Argentina, Uruguay, Paraguay, and, in Brazil.

Ben Mand - 00:25:23
And so The so let's talk about the leaf. So we harvest the leaf, and a bit a bit of a stem. And it is tumble dried. Chops. We age it. And the benefit of the Yerba Mate is 1, you get the vitamins, minerals, polyphenols, or which are antioxidants that you commonly associate it with, like, a green tea. Right?

Ben Mand - 00:25:49
So you get those those benefits from there. You get the about similar caffeine as you do from a cup of coffee So similar caffeine levels. Many people talk about it being just a smoother, less jittery, caffeine than than coffee. And then there's there's a little bit of theobromine in there in in there as well, which is what you the compound you find in chocolate, which gives you that enjoyments, maybe a little bit of a euphoria kind of enjoyment, feeling, as you drink it, as you consume it. So you know, really an interesting kind of backbone for a for a product. So that's where it is.

Ben Mand - 00:26:32
So the as far as shade grown versus sun growing, so most Yergamante, in fact, I don't know of any other brand that really exclusively does shade grown like we do. So most Yerba Mate in in its original way, it was is very sure shaped around. It's part of the forest. Right? So you have different layers of the canopy in the forest. And there's these Euromante bushes, in some cases, they can grow taller such that it feels like a tree or you can keep it, you know, smaller, like, more like a bush.

Ben Mand - 00:26:59
And that is so we do anything from, like, a wild harvest, meaning it's just growing wild in the forest. And we harvest once a year. So we have, agronomists and others that are just constantly assessing and when they're ready, and then you only harvest a certain amount. That is the appropriate amount. Subset then the bush and and regenerates. So we do anything from wild harvest to everything from there too, what we do is 1 of the things from a regenerative standpoint is we're trying to do is protect the forest and expand kind of reclaim land with additional forest.

Ben Mand - 00:27:29
And so what we're doing is we have, you know, in some cases where there's, tree cover, but let's say not as dense as like a dense forest, we're planting additional Yerba mate there as well, as well as indigenous and other types of trees that are commonly found in that area. And so what we're doing is we're expanding the forest cover. And as you get further to the edges, then you're having to plant more trees, more yerba mate And so it becomes a little thinner from a from a tree cover standpoint, but all have some level of shade. That is converse to what a lot of your roommate has done is just it's it's straight monoculture. So they've stripped the forest It's just a field and they're planting rows of Yerba Mate. And that's what they're and and that's what they harvest.

Ben Mand - 00:28:23
And so it's, just different. And what we find is, you know, as I talk to the team and, like, what are the differences from a from a taste and, like, are there any kind of, taste differences? And And what they find is, it's a a little more bitter when it's sun grown. It's just a harsher leaf because it's a harsher conditions versus You get you have a smoother, year of a Monte experience when it's and when it's shade grown. And so, just That is, and I still am doing all sorts of, like, sensory cuttings where you can taste, you know, toasted versus regular versus a more green, There are a lot of different ways you can kind of age and roast your your momate in addition to shade grown versus sun grown. So I can report back as as we go, Kyle. I'm sure you've you've probably had no all these.

Ben Mand - 00:29:17
You've probably tasted it years ago and can and it can explain to everybody, all those different this?

Kyle Krull - 00:29:28
I I can't. Like, Anthony said earlier, I don't consume caffeine, have it consume caffeine in decades at this point, which is crazy to say out loud. But it's 1 of those brands that, like, as soon as a representative is like, this, I hate that I can't consume this. It drives me crazy that blows the brand so much. And I really appreciate the story you told because that kinda harkens back to the campaign I mentioned earlier. You know, I I can't remember exactly what year it was. It was either 2012 or 2013. And Guayakí had come up with this this program that they wanted to run at different Whole Foods stores, where they basically calculated, you know, how much Guayakí they sold from cans, bottles, loose, and so on.

Kyle Krull - 00:29:53
And what that equated to in terms of, like, actual loose loose leaf produced, And then they equated that to number of acres they were able to purchase to grow the rain forest essentially in South America. And they had custom signage for every single individual sort of say, hey. Thank you consumers and Whole Foods staff. Because of the purchases made at this store, you saved, you know, maybe it was, like, 300 acres of rainforest. And I'm totally making that number up. I did not recall what it was, but it was individual impacts shown at every single location because of that shade grow shade grown Monte, and that has stuck with me forever.

Kyle Krull - 00:30:31
It was such a cool campaign to make people feel empowered that not only are they purchasing something that's good for them, and clean, but it also has this, like, really tangible benefit to the planet. And I never seen anybody else do something prior. So that was super cool, and so amazing to be a part of it. And and me, a part of it is just like the guy who goes to the store says, Hey. You can hang up this sign. You know, I did, like, a finger's worth of the work here. But it was amazing. It was it was a great campaign.

Ben Mand - 00:31:06
Was it the finger that you chopped off last night or the

Kyle Krull - 00:31:12
Maybe. It could have been, but, yeah, for the listeners, I've got a band finger. I I cut the top of this this finger off yesterday, slices some carrots. So we're going through I think I'm sure you're more in this episode than having any previous so I'm not happy.

Ben Mand - 00:31:24
You're wild and loose with sharing your fingers.

Kyle Krull - 00:31:28
No. You gotta do what you gotta do. You gotta get get your hands dirty.

Ben Mand - 00:31:32
No. On a serious on a serious note. Like, individualizing impact is really powerful. So I I agree with you. That's a it's a great way know, oftentimes we speak in just more macro terms, but when you can do it, store basis, like a store that you shop at knowing that you and your and the other consumers who bought the product, that's a that's a very powerful message.

Kyle Krull - 00:31:54
Yeah. Yeah.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:31:54
Agreed. Ben, this might be too much in the weeds on the agronomy side, but I'm curious in the agroforestry systems or in the rainforest systems that are being created with your bemante involved. Are other things being grown alongside them commodity crops, like cacao, coffee, or are they more like stuff that just lives in that forest and doesn't really have a food or beverage application?

Ben Mand - 00:32:17
It it it depends. In some of the communities, yes, there are they are planting other things. So what's interesting and and and I've never encountered this in my life, but it's 1 of my 1 of my favorite aspects is, you know, our, our head of Brazil operations in the factory Mhmm. Is a PhD ethnobotonous. And so he and he's from Brazil. And so, you know, when you think about factories and all the technical things that go into running a factory and and all the business and stuff like that, to have a PhD ethnobotanist running it is, I think, an amazing thing. And that and to me, it's testament to who we are as a company is wildly, you know, the key has learned all the stuff he needs to learn. He's learning all the stuff from a running a factory.

Ben Mand - 00:33:02
But to have somebody who going long winded way of getting back to your kind of your your question and your answer is You know, he's also working with agronomist understands, like, this is these are, like, this is the first kind of tree that kinda grows in this you know, has the the taller canopy, and then you need this layer and this layer and here are the other things you plant. And so just, you know, that that Fortissa knowledge and knowing immediately different things and how, you know, whether something's healthy or not, you know, from a from a plant various plants to, approaches and, on, on, you know, being successful in, in the forest and on these farms. So there's a variety of types of, of cover and trees that they plant in addition to then oftentimes these are, you know, these are our farming communities. And so they're growing other crops as well. Some of which is, you know, in a in a more traditional kind of garden and some of which is, like, intercropped into, into the forest where the where they have the Yerba Mate.

Kyle Krull - 00:34:11
Interesting. Got it. So it sounds like there's some variety, depending on the location here. I'm really curious. You know, this this plant, especially the shade grown feels inherently regenerative. Right? You know, when it's shade grown, it implies that there's some other plant nearby that is taller, providing shade, biodiversity, really taking that box. So from and I know you've only been at Guackey for 3 months, but, like, what is the quote regenerative journey been like Guwaihi, because it feels like 1 of those, like, inherently regenerative kind of legacy brands before the term was really around. So how how will our How are you all navigating the regenerative landscape today? And what are your plans in the future with that term?

Ben Mand - 00:34:48
Yeah. So for us, regenerative is more than just the farming and, you know, regenerative organic farming, it is the business model. So how do we really bill make craft products that people really want that inherently drive demand for a better and a a better way of doing business, not only from a regenerative organic farming standpoint, but how we interact with communities how we partner with suppliers, how we actually run our entire business is is, you know, this market driven regeneration. So that that is really the focus. I think when we get specific to, I would say, I'll I'll break down 2 components that I think are pretty interesting. 1 is when we think about it from a a regenerative organic farming standpoint, to me, they're, yes, there's inherently because it's shade grown. You're in this forest ecosystem that is inherently regenerative, and we are 1 of the original that we've been regenerative and just only are now, as we go through the certifications, getting credit for being regenerative organic. I think the powerful part to me and to the team is as we keep expanding. Right?

Ben Mand - 00:35:54
So preserving these forests, right, you know, there are so much of the area has been deforested for cattle, various different things. And to provide AAA livelihood that protect that allows people to live in, you know, concert with with with with the forest and actually generate an income through the the Yerba Mante is a is a powerful thing. And so that, to me, from a protecting and then importantly expanding. How do we start, you know, instead of, like, creeping 1 way where you're losing for us, how do we creep the other way and spend for us. And that to me, as a personal mission and just overall as a company, that's where I get a lot of South action is, like, when you start expanding, not only protecting and keeping it from being, deforested, but now starting to expand that. I think the second thing that I find really powerful in our in our model is the commitment and partnership that we have with our local communities.

Ben Mand - 00:36:53
And, you know, on 1 hand, yes, when we buy your, we pay a 25% premium to whatever the market price is. So we make sure that in each area that we're paying 25% higher. And then separately, with money that goes into a fund that then gets used with these communities. And but I what I think is powerful and especially in today's age is the longstanding commitments and relationships that we have with these communities. And so, you know, this isn't just switching suppliers for you know, cane, sugar or, you know, peach puree or whatever it may be. This is working with communities for decades. Right?

Ben Mand - 00:37:47
So when I went down to South America, I think what what really struck me was we have communities that we've been working with for decades. Right? So we've, like, we have teams that work with these communities. On teaching them some, you know, some ways to, like, how you harvest the seeds, how you get the seedlings to sprout, and then you You grow them for a year, and then you plant the seedlings. And, like, the whole process and what you do, and what what is amazing is I got to see and spend time with the community, is actually an indigenous community that has been marginalized for decades. And this is a community that we've been working with for a couple decades. Right?

Ben Mand - 00:38:25
So from a long time and the level of impact we have there where It's not just harvesting Mate, the Yerba Mate, but over time, we've worked with them to build a factory, right, and so just a basic upfront process So now you think about it. They're not only selling the Yervamonte at a premium, but now they're actually doing some processing of it, which means that employs some people. Right? And then they get a, you know, tolling fee and and and and profit on top of that for running that. And now we've worked with the World Bank, and the World Bank is investing a few $100, 000 to finish off and build out this factory. Not when you think about, like, somebody's got a, like, you know, you've got all the offices, you know, the people kind of kind of running it.

Ben Mand - 00:39:09
You got the engineering. You've got the people working in the line. You've got people harvesting. So now you've created purpose for this community where there's, you know, it it is beyond just a simple harvest, and now you have a lot more sophistication types of jobs, types of responsibilities. And to me, that is really rewarding. Like, you've worked long term with this community to, you know, build kind of a an enterprise that they own, they run, and they benefit from.

Ben Mand - 00:39:35
In addition to, we've we've put water attrition in in into their, community. Like, we've done all the other things that I think you would commonly see, but actually working with a community to kind of build up in infrastructure is is pretty powerful. And then on the flip side, met with another indigenous community that we just started a new relationship with, I think, like, 3 months ago. So it's a brand new, and they're literally, like, the week before they had just finished this little greenhouse, and where they all start with the seedlings and stuff. And there'll be 0 financial benefit from that relationship for at least 5 years. Right?

Ben Mand - 00:40:20
Because you have to, like, by the time you get the actual seedlings and then you and you plant them, it's gonna take another 3 3 to 4 years for those to start you know, bearing any kind of, a crop. So, you know, from from the day you start, it's 5 years. And that is so much. If you look at the way the business world runs, it's just so much on short term results, right, Whether you're backed by investors or you're publicly traded, it's hard as leaders and as a as businesses. To really balance that short and long term. And that is, like, to me, that's 1 of my favorite things is a turning run business that's getting more out of them.

Ben Mand - 00:41:01
But but really, you know, having a stake in the long term and doing the right things long term, but still managing a short term successful business. And that you know, I think too many companies are just kinda like the 1% for or whatever, you know, they just write a check. And to me, what's powerful is it's the long term relationships. It's rolling up your sleeves and getting in there with communities and not just simply writing a check.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:41:32
Yeah. That I think that's 1 thing that Kyle and I enjoy most about this work is we have so many examples now of regenerative brands really doing that, doing that work, which is usually harder and more complex. But also proving that there is a business benefit to it, right, especially in the long term. And if we look at historically what's happened, you know, in the past 100 under 300 years, it's people have gone into these communities. They've extracted all of the resources out, really not had been in right relationship with them and what y'all are building and done for the best 20 years as the exact opposite of that. We need we need a ton more of that. And I think the modern food cons food consumer is less aware of a lot of those relationships because everybody puts the cool global staff looking farmer on their marketing poster, even if they aren't in right relationship with that person in those communities.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:42:05
Not to mention just all the implications around you know, if this is an indigenous drink, it it was it was, you know, cultivated by these indigenous cultures and wanting to honor that and just kind of the even the non business y part of it. And I love, I love market driven regeneration. I I wish III almost wish y'all didn't beat us to that because I feel like that should be our tagline, Ben. But maybe we'll license it from you or we'll borrow from you, but we will definitely kind of endorse it as as really cool. Love I love that y'all are kind of touting that and have trademarked it because it's it's beautiful and it's, I think, exemplifies what Kyle and I and this community that we're building here are trying to show people through these brands as, like, market driven market driven regeneration is is very possible and very real and happening right

Ben Mand - 00:43:00
You know, it's funny is while I was at harmless harvest when we were just solidifying. And this is 1 of the things that often I think is important when the founders are no longer inside the business. They're on the board. They're advising. They're helping is 1 of my jobs is to future proof these businesses. How do we make sure years down the road when the team that's working on it are no longer there and there's a whole different set of people that they're living the doctrine, that they're absolutely and so, you know, that comes into, you know, kind of core values as a business and how you hire, how you compensate how you, reward people. But it's also, you know, just kind of language that you use to talk about what you're about.

Ben Mand - 00:43:38
And and funny thing is we never termed it, you know, market driven regeneration, but we at harmless, we had written copy that was just about create that natural demand for and what and we talked about the whole concept. That's what we were that's what we were about. Not realizing that essentially that is you know, what Goliath he was doing. So, interestingly, that, that is AAA nice parallel. I'll also jump back to 1 thing that you said, and I think it's what, you know, like, in these businesses. There's all sorts of just interesting nuggets and surprises and whatnot.

Ben Mand - 00:44:11
And I think, you know, I, and I'm guilty about this as well in the way I talk about it because it's just often the easiest way that people, associate. But We often talk about farmers, and the farming. And 1 of the things I definitely found at harmless harbors, but it's even in in just in some cases, true here is often the person harvesting the crop is not necessarily the farmer as well. Right? And sometimes there are separate harvesters. And often what I find is is when you're thinking about, like, who is potentially the most volvaldible and who do you wanna make sure that you have the right kind of protections in place.

Ben Mand - 00:44:44
It's really the harvester. Right? And but that is a consumer when you when you think about, like, when you articulate things and you talk about things, it's just not necessarily what people really understand. They just think farmers Right? And that's just and and then, you know, as marketers or as business leaders, you just kind of keep perpetuating because it's just it's easier to kinda get get the point across. But, you know, what I always say for my teams is like, a, it'd be nice for me to stop saying only farmers and really recognize harvesters.

Ben Mand - 00:45:14
But, Yanna, from a policy standpoint, That was 1 thing, you know, that, especially as we got going at Harmeless Harvest, that was probably my biggest concern was making sure that we were we're really looking out for the harvester because they're the ones that are the most vulnerable and where potentially the most of the abuses occur. Is with the is with the harvester. So, you know, from a consumer standpoint, they need to know and believe that you're doing right and that you're taking care of these things. And as leaders, when you start to understand who has power. Right? It's just the basics of business. Right?

Ben Mand - 00:45:49
Whoever has power is kind of like, can wield that responsibly or irresponsibly. And in that ecosystem, the, that is where sometimes, abuses do occur.

Kyle Krull - 00:46:05
Man, I super appreciate that distinction. And it's like, as you say, it's something that I have known, but had never heard spoken, like, that clearly, you know, it was like an inherent truth. So, yeah, I think that's that's very well said and well articulated. And I think, you know, AC and I probably had the same thought. Like, we gotta make sure we do that on every 8 podcast episode moving forward. I make that distinction clear because it's it's so spot on. You mentioned future proofing the business, and I wanna kinda, like, harken back to what you said, you know, working with a company like General Mills and not trying to throw them under the bus to large publicly traded companies.

Kyle Krull - 00:46:27
But it's so different to me because you have these, like, what I I call them, like, zombie corporations. Right? They're not run by founders anymore. They're, like, run by the board, and their primary goal is to extract profits. So they don't they're like, their future proofing model, like, doesn't really exist because they report to the shareholders who just wanna maximize profits. And what you're building in Guayaqui is, like, the exact opposite.

Kyle Krull - 00:46:57
And I'm curious from your standpoint, having worked internally in those 4 those publicly traded organizations, like, how do you get them to shift to future proofing in this direction? Like, what needs to happen to show them? Like, this is how we really need to be thinking about building our businesses moving forward?

Ben Mand - 00:47:18
1st and foremost, it starts with the financials. Right? Like, the future of business, and I fundamentally believe this people. So throughout decades. Right? If you ask people, like, you know, do you believe in doing right by the, environment and by people, whatever? They always say yes. Right? Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.

Ben Mand - 00:47:28
And then you look at their actions and there's a massive gap. Right? There's a small portion of people that do it. But that is starting to change. For the first time we're starting to see these this younger generation is find like we're reaching a crisis and I can vote with my wallet. And if I'm gonna wait for government, if I'm gonna wait for other things like that, it's gonna take forever. And so more people are are voting with their wallet.

Ben Mand - 00:47:51
And that's what they have to recognize is the future to be successful. If you're gonna be selling product services, whatever it may be, being a responsible business is going to be the table stake. And it's not quite the table stake yet. But it will be in the future. And so, you know, if they want to drive consumer loyalty and price premiums and, you know, drive sales and make profits and stuff like that, they have to be responsible. And it's not just from the consumer standpoint. It's also from a Wall Street standpoint, investors, and whatnot.

Ben Mand - 00:48:28
So you know, you you you the the market forces are are painting the picture. I think 1 of the challenges they have is I think at some level, they recognize that, but and they will put stakes in the ground and start moving down that way, but they're still okay in winning enough in the short term where You don't have to it's not like it doesn't have to be a kind of complete overhaul of their business. So, you know, the more people start voting with their wallet, and start making impact part of their decision making, the that will usher in much swifter I mean, they're just very, marketplace driven. The, you know, the challenge, you know, it is not easy for them. You know, like, if I need regenerative organic, cane sugar. There's like 1 supplier that we know of. And, you know, not in huge quantities. We can get it.

Ben Mand - 00:49:30
Like, When general mills needs regenerative organic cane sugar, I mean, there's not enough supply in the world. Now you can that saying you would buy search creative demand, but it's it's not as easy as just saying it. Like, you have to work it takes years working in these farms with people. So inherently, the bigger you are, it it just becomes more difficult, not impossible. It just takes time. You just have to start doing.

Ben Mand - 00:50:01
And so, yeah, so that's, you know, III think the marketplace will will force them, and and and we'll draw that behavior for them.

Kyle Krull - 00:50:13
I think you're spot on. And, you know, coming from kettle and fire, you know, we wanna source as many regenerative bones as we can, but to your point, like, there are not enough regenerative and or chicken bones to to make all of our products today. Supply Chain simply don't exist. So we're working to try to develop those supply chains and build them out so that maybe eventually we can get but we can't flip that switch. Supply's just not there.

Ben Mand - 00:50:33
And that's that's a Kyle. That's a really good point. And that's tricky part for small and large. Right? Big and large, they have to hit a certain number of of of sales and profit and the dynamics of why people are at a big company and how they operate is very different. Right? It's more about, like, this is a career, a long term job, and type things. And so I honestly, I personally believe, like, most people make decisions not to get fired. Right? And so it's hard, you know, hard stuff, you know, is, inherently doesn't pay off in the short term and often, you know, doesn't, you know, put you in good stock, you know, from a from a longevity standpoint.

Ben Mand - 00:50:55
But thinking about it just even from a small company standpoint, you know, at the end of the day, there's you have to raise money. You have to somehow be balanced the business realities of sales, growth, and profit. While doing these things. And so, you know, you can't be totally unprofitable and very strong from an impact standpoint because then you're a nonprofit. And, like, at some point, investors stop investing. Right?

Ben Mand - 00:51:21
Right. And then the flip side, just running a business for sales and profits, like, long term, like, who wants that? Like, that brand is soulless. Right? You know, there's there's nothing to it, and it's not gonna win a long term. So you need both. And it is a delicate balance.

Ben Mand - 00:51:42
And that is, you know, there are there are lots of decisions that benefit both, which is good, but there's also decisions that are you make that are maybe more financial or, you know, drive sales and profit, but then there are other decisions you're making that are really, you know, far more about impact and purpose. And and and as leaders, you have to balance it, but it's a it's a delicate balance of trying to build out supply, invest in these things. Having the resources that work with them that don't necessarily contribute to sales and profit. Right? It's it's you have to find that delicate balance for each company is a little bit different.

Kyle Krull - 00:52:24
Totally makes sense. And I'm curious, you know, you mentioned voting with your dollar. So how are you all conveying this, like, additional value add to your consumers moving forward. It's always been shade grown Mate. Now it's regenerative Mate, like, how are you changing your language and your your marketing attributes and topics and let, you know, things. I'm I'm totally losing track of my thought process here. And I'll say that out loud. How are you pivoting? Clear. To tell? How are you pivoting yourself, Ryan?

Kyle Krull - 00:52:44
Oh, it didn't feel fine. But that's okay. I know you mentioned regenerative organic certified. Like, I know those things are happening. Like, what's the plan moving forward? How are you gonna tell this this new version of sort of the same story?

Ben Mand - 00:53:07
Yeah. So there are a few things here. I think 1, we benefit from we have a really a really great kind of ambassador program, where people really learn a lot more about our brand. They tend to talk a lot about our brand. And they share the, you know, the the positive things that we do. And and, unfortunately, like, the things that you do from an impact standpoint tend to be a longer story. Right? They're not always, you know, easy in a 1 line tagline or whatever it may be to really convey the depth of of things you do.

Ben Mand - 00:53:34
So, typically, it's a longer format, type of communication. So, certainly, when you have great brand ambassadors and they talk about your brand and stuff like that. That is a great way to share it. And that has been the backbone, and and we've benefited a lot from that. And, honestly, it's, like, probably 1 of the best assets that we have is how we how we engage with our with our consumers and how they then you know, share, beyond. As we move forward, though, we do need to do a better job.

Ben Mand - 00:54:09
I think 1 of the things that we don't we haven't done a great job is actually just making sure at quick glance that we get credit for some of the great things we do. So, I mean, if you look at a bottle, you don't see anything that just says, fair for life, doesn't say anything about being regenerative organic. None of those types of things are are there in present. And honestly for for the vast majority of people, you need a couple of those quick hit things that make it abundantly obvious that, like, okay, they're probably pretty responsible. Now there are there are certainly companies. There's a range of responsible even within that ecosystem.

Ben Mand - 00:54:43
Like, you can have the labels on the front but what level of of of commitment and what level of resources and energy are they putting towards furthering, themselves in those areas? That that always takes a a little bit of AAA longer format, either conversation, marketing, or investigation. But we need to do a better job of that those brilliant base and that's not something that we've done. It's different than harmless harvest. Right? When I when I joined harmless harvest, you know, the the marketing campaign was all about the farmers and whatnot. And for them, I was like, okay.

Ben Mand - 00:55:15
Well, we're already called harmless harvest. And we've got, you know, the organic and fair for life on the front. And, you know, it's you don't know what fair for life means, but it's not unfair for life. So there's you already have something there. For them, it's about, like, how do you build a little more lifestyle and embracing the pink and and what So each brand is a little bit different on, like, what your starting point is. Guayakí, certainly, you you you get that there's something from a heritage from a craft, from a, you know, standpoint, but you don't necessarily fully understand the responsible aspect of it.

Ben Mand - 00:55:48
So I think we have to work just a little bit harder than what Harte and when I joined harmless had to, you know, for them given that their name is, you know, harmless. So I I would say we need to do some of the brilliant basics better. And then I do believe there are some ways that we can go deeper into verticals that make sense. Right? So there's certainly the PR and media and things like that, but, there are some ways that we can now start getting you know, go deeper and interact with other thought leaders, be this leader in this market driven regeneration. And then focusing it on the areas that we're really becoming experts. Right? You know, so regenerative organic, fair for life, and how we work with indigenous communities.

Ben Mand - 00:56:36
Like, there's some real powerful aspects to what we do where we can you know, both as a brand and a personal mission of just helping others, right, helping other small businesses that are really trying to drive a positive impact. How do you help make them successful?

Kyle Krull - 00:57:01
We we've got a way that we we can't talk about on this episode, but we're building that way. So we're excited that you're that's something you wanna try to solve for.

Ben Mand - 00:57:10
Yeah.

Kyle Krull - 00:57:10
It looks like you had a you had a question ready to go.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:57:12
Yeah. You'll you'll be briefed on some development there rather soon, Ben, that that we're excited about. You know, I I think 1 thing that I'd be interested to hear you talk about more is have y'all gotten into the weeds in terms of what the actual future of that claims architecture looks like, or like, do you wanna have rock on pack eventually? You know, what what does that look like? Can you do it for those 40, 50 SKUs? What's possible? What's not? Like, what is the actual hardcore application of regen claims on products look like?

Ben Mand - 00:57:44
Yeah. So 1, I definitely wanna get, the basics of what we do on pack. So the regenerative organic certifications, fair for life. We are certified B corp. You know, those things I think are really important. And I think, you know, the the other thing is just helping break down even on package, you know, very few people read the back panel or anything. So I I recognize that. Yeah. But there are some who do But can we break down into kind of bite size? Like, what does regenerative organic farming mean?

Ben Mand - 00:58:09
You know, and just some little icon short, like, 1 sentence 2 sentence max kind of thing on the very, you know, what is Sherba Mate? What is the culture of, you know, where did it come from? And just some basics on that. What does it mean to be fair for life? Market driven regeneration just as a philosophy. You know, just some of those bite size I think is really important just in our in our basic materials.

Ben Mand - 00:58:32
Packaging being 1 of them. But think about it when we sample, we have a tent Right? That is great real estate, because somebody standing in line to get us, you know, get a sample. Right? Understanding that you've got somebody who's pretty fixated on your brand wants to try, like, what could you start to share with them on that tent or signage around that? There's just ways you can start bringing it to life.

Ben Mand - 00:59:02
So if you wanna do a more immersive, which means more expensive, but you pick a couple, you know, tend to pull events where you, you know, when you're sampling, maybe you spend a little extra and you bring the forest to life and you bring to life what it really, like, how you harvest and what you do in addition to handing, you know, we sell cans and hands, you know, that type of thing. Like, in addition to handing out products, Can you use that opportunity for a slightly richer experience where maybe not everybody is engaging, but if you get a quarter of people to engage for more than 5 seconds to, like, 20 seconds to 30 seconds. Then you have some people are there for 5 minutes or 15 minutes. You now they've experienced the brand. They know so much more, and then they talk about it. So there's a range of things that we can do, and it's finding the right touch points in the right ways to help seed the story.

Ben Mand - 00:59:50
And we, as a leader, you know, part of why I think it's also important. It's not just so we get credit. It's how do you leave, lead a movement and spur others to do this. Right? And so having these icons, having these stories, talking about it, helping founders on an individual basis, or you know, just helping you engage in with consumers. That, you know, those are ways that you can you can help lead and and and and feed the movement.

Kyle Krull - 01:00:34
I love that response for a variety of reasons, but in particular, like, the leading, you know, a brand like, WildKey with the power you all have, I think, and and how much great work you all have done to kind of hone in your message and lead that charge is something that none of your brain can do. Right, you will have the size, scale, distribution, and awareness to really make an impact and tell that regenerative story in a way, in a in a new category, a way that it can resonate and kind of go cross category eventually, right, so that you you can sort of be the tip of that spear. So that's really exciting. I think you just did a really good job of answering this question from a marketing active. And also I'm cognizant of the fact that you've only been with Black Cave for 3 months, so you're probably still in assessment phase. But out of curiosity, like, what is coming for the future of Guayakí? Is are there additional product types or categories you wanna get into?

Kyle Krull - 01:01:15
Is it really, doubling down where you've already got distribution? Are there additional mortgage that you're not in right now or or channels? Talk to us about your future plans.

Ben Mand - 01:01:34
All of the above, actually. But, yes, let me break it down in some in some in some basic ways. 1, we have a great product. And, so what I, 1st and foremost, believe is I do think that there's a lot of opportunity to Both bolster our core set of products that we have right now, which, you know, in some cases, might be just some new flavors, different, you know, some with, you know, just with cane sugar, others that are in Sweden. So just having a variety and kind of thinking through the different products and the hierarchies. And then making sure from a package design standpoint that we're clear. It's not always, you know, as an outsider coming in, it's not always obvious to me, like, from a especially from a, like, even a couple feet away. Like, what, the different flavors and which ones are sweet and less TV and which ones are unsweetened and which ones. So there's just some basic cleaning things up for consumers so they understand more easily what these different products are and they can find the product for them for that's right for them because as we all know, we have there are very different consumers out there and some people, you know, like an unsweetened.

Ben Mand - 01:02:25
Some people like it, you know, low sugar, but they like the sweetness So using a stevia and others are just just given to me as just regular sugar. I want something simple like that. It's delicious. Right? So Everybody has kind of a different name. But there's kind of your core things there.

Ben Mand - 01:02:47
There are some things I think about on just how we map our supply chain and how, how and where we grew our Mate. So both that I think has massive carbon, like, lowers our carbon impact but also then creates, some opportunities from a product standpoint, from a base standpoint. So That is, you know, some ways I think about, our core from an innovation standpoint, there are a number of different, directions that we can go and, you know, that the even before coming, there was some ideas I had in my head and it turns out there were never new, new ideas, just new marketers that joined us. So, So we're gonna dust off some of those things. Now there are some technical challenges with some of the things that we wanted to do, but, I'm confidence now. We're building, building up the resources and the team. We've made it a big focus. So I revealed kind of some the some key priorities that I felt were critical.

Ben Mand - 01:03:44
For success. And 1 of them is product, right, both from a core standpoint and from an innovation standpoint, really upping our game there. And if you want to think about it, it's just like, you know, it's not just the cans and whatnot. How do we think about loose? How do we think about them, yerba mate in the tea bags? Right? How do we think about building that as a backbone, you know, for for consumers?

Ben Mand - 01:04:06
They start to see it in the same light as they see coffee and tea and and and and other sources of caffeine. So I think there are some some things we can do there. Thinking then also about where you find it, not just a convenience store or a grocery store, thinking about where, you know, is that discovery? And is it brewed hot, you know, at a university? A student going in and sitting by hand? Maybe they want a hot Monte, right, and how do you sell and brew, yeah, brew that for, you know, those types of food service environment.

Ben Mand - 01:04:38
So there's a number of different things we can do to really penetrate and establish your, as as its own thing. And that's that's a different kind of thing than when I was at harvest harvest. Right? Homeless harvest, people kind of understand what coconut water is. For harvest harvest is about, like, this fresh much better tasting, you know, like, you know, perishable coconut water. So it's a better version than is that concept versus creating a whole new category.

Ben Mand - 01:05:13
Those are 2 very different models and how you and and and what growth looks like and the types of activities you have to take, to kind of drive that growth.

Kyle Krull - 01:05:27
Yeah. Man, as somebody who's trying to make bone broth the category, I very much under stand, a lot of what you're saying, and it's hard. It's hard. You know, there's there's additional steps. It's it's not easy. People don't understand, you know, what's different between bone broth or broth or stock. Like, it's it's difficult to be able to communicate to your point earlier. Like, in a small enough window of time and a concise enough period of of of letters or sentences, to effectively communicate those different differentiating points. So, sounds like you got your hands full. And I'm excited for what you do.

Kyle Krull - 01:05:54
And what I love about your answer of it is getting back to basics, making sure that you're clearly differentiating your different product types for those different types of consumers. Right? So it sounds some low hanging fruit and also some exciting stuff down the way, which is, you know, super exciting.

Anthony Corsaro - 01:06:13
Yeah. Yeah. I'm amazed at how far it's come. And how many how much opportunity still exists, you know, like, you think about the overall probably household penetration or awareness of your Bimonte. I don't know what it is, then maybe you can tell us maybe you can't, but you know, it's still not coffee or regular tea. Right? And so it's like

Ben Mand - 01:06:29
Yeah.

Anthony Corsaro - 01:06:29
We're in this space and we see Guayakí as this this awesome successful scaled brand, but there's still so much opportunity out there. So first question that I feel like you have a very unique perspective on, Ben, before we go to the final question that we ask everybody is you've you've worked in big CPG and you've worked in some of these high growth emerging brands now. We have this regenerative claims universe where we have kind of this variance of claims. Right? We have like practice adoption initiatives, like, with big CPG that maybe aren't making it to end product that are mass balance into supply chains. We have absolutely 100% certified, you know, single ingredient skews that are on the whole food shelf with the certification. And then we have stuff in the in between when you sit there as a CEO of a brand and you, like, are also an advocate for the positive work that needs to happen in the space, like, how do you reconcile the differences of those things and that they're happening at the same time?

Anthony Corsaro - 01:07:09
Like, where do you think that's gonna net out? Like, where are we gonna be in 5, 10, 15 years in this regen claims universe?

Ben Mand - 01:07:29
Yeah. I I personally believe regenerative is organic. Right. So to me, it's doesn't kinda work if if you're using pesticides and things like that, that's not regenerative in my mind. So to me, ultimately, regenerative is about organic. And I think that ultimately is the way we're going. And I I do believe I think on some level, most people believe in under Dan, that all the chemicals and stuff that we use can't be good. They how bad they are is debatable, but, like, I think a lot of us realize they're really bad. Right?

Ben Mand - 01:08:00
And and I think, you know, what has been, you know, mother nature always knows best. And and I think fundamentally, we're gonna get to a point where we're just going to embrace mother nature, and that is that is regenerative organic and and getting rid of all these, like, artificial and and pesticides and things like that. So I think that's ultimately where it's going. I think in the meantime, What I would say, and this is just something that's, I think, important for anybody who's on these types of businesses is I'm always of the philosophy of just put 1 foot in front of the other. And I think sometimes we all get discouraged by, like, oh, it doesn't seem like that much, or it's not that, like, you know, ex you know, like, you know, when I was at harmless harvest and we we started converting to a 100% RPT plastic, So no more virgin plastic. I mean, the first step we did was 30%. And I had a lot of people say, like, is it even worth it? Right? You know what I mean?

Ben Mand - 01:09:00
Like, it's only 30% and, like, Yeah. I mean, it's it's 30%. And we start getting experience with that. Just do it and then get better. And then, you know, eventually, it gave us enough technical capability working with it, then because we're blowing our own bottles, then we got to the point of like, oh, now we know how to do with a 100%. Had we not done that? It would have taken longer to a 100% is is really the point.

Ben Mand - 01:09:23
And I so progress is, you know, you people say progress over perfection. It's a 100% true. You I mean, know where you're trying to go. Like, where are we trying to get to? That is an important exercise in making sure you know where you're going. But just start doing. And and don't apologize.

Ben Mand - 01:09:34
I don't feel bad about if it's not perfect because that's not gonna be perfect. And how most everything we do is not perfect. Right? So just start making it better. And and I think you you you that is just important on an individual basis. And I also think just for companies, you know, we talk I talked earlier about this, like, balancing things. Right?

Ben Mand - 01:09:56
And there are decisions I make that are purely impact There are decisions I make that are purely profit. There are decisions I make that purely to drive sales, but I'm but I'm balancing the whole thing and making sure that we're doing enough on on each 1. Now you never do anything that is at complete the opposite. You know what I mean? You wouldn't do something Yeah. That runs against your core purpose and what you stand for as a brand. Of course, you wouldn't do those things. But there are things.

Ben Mand - 01:10:23
And and there are lots of decisions that just balance all all of it, but I think sometimes I think that's, you know, like, when I'm speak to leaders or people who work on teams, they almost kinda feel like every decision has to be, like, all 3, right, and you gotta bounce them. And what happens is when you try to do that on every single decision, you tend to suboptimize each of those decisions, and it suboptimizes the company. I'd rather optimize the company and the overall impact in sales and profit, recognizing that some decisions are really just a profit decision where some decisions really are in impact decisions. And there are plenty that are like all of them or part or or a little bit of profit and a little bit of of of of impacts. But Don't let that. Like, just because you make a decision that really just drives sales or really drives whatever, it's in it's in balance of everything that you're doing.

Ben Mand - 01:11:11
It's funding what you're trying to do from an impact standpoint. And so I think people, you know, what I would, you know, advice I'd give to people is be good with that, right, because you're just you have to drive progress and you need a successful business that's driving impact. And and and you're gonna make all sorts of decisions. Keep stepping back. Hold yourself accountable. So, like, on the whole, are we doing enough in the areas but don't get tied down on each individual decision.

Anthony Corsaro - 01:11:49
Super cool. I mean, Ben, this has been awesome episode. Really appreciate it. Tons of good insights. Tough tough question here that we always wrap up with, but I think you've answered it kind of along the way, which has been fun. But how do we get Regen Brands, 50% market share by 2050. What do we need to do?

Ben Mand - 01:12:07
I'm gonna answer this a little differently than I have so far. I've talked a lot about when we have to do how you run a business, how we as the bigger businesses, like Guayaqui like a harmless harvest or whatever it may be that can lead and mentor and help these next these other generations of brands I would throw the challenge out to retailers as 1 constituent in this and and others. Here's the deal. We talked a little bit throughout this of, like, how hard it is and just a couple words to get across that we're responsible or we're we're work whatever. Because we're all fighting just to make sure you know what, in my case, what is your BOMante? What does it do for you? Right?

Ben Mand - 01:12:39
And if I'm not talking about that, then they're they don't know to buy us for, you know, caffeine. So, you know, there's, like, each of us brands has this, like, you're trying to just sell the products and then you want them to know people to know that you're responsible. Retailers, think about it this way. They make decisions on what gets on shove. And so often big retailers have big pockets and they really buy their distribution or block out other responsible brands. They do and and oftentimes, they are doing the cat man. So they're category captain for these categories.

Ben Mand - 01:13:15
And so they do all the back end work, which is great for the retailers. But it's obviously not purely objective and it and it certainly serves their, but it it, you know, their self interest. And so retailers have to make sure that when they're putting price on shove, we could all talk about we have to drive change. We have to drive change. Well, if you have all these fledgling businesses that are barely making a trying to do it. And then you've retailers who don't put it on shelf.

Ben Mand - 01:13:38
1, I mean, yes, you have to be you have to have a good tasting product if you're talking products. And you have to be reasonably priced. Right? It can't be a $20 beverage that tastes like crap. Right? So it has to be reasonable. I'm not I'm not saying that, but Yeah.

Ben Mand - 01:13:53
They have to they have to take efforts to put those products and shove. For retailers who are doing private label and doing knockoffs, Like, just putting an organic seal on there and just doing a an organic knockoff. When you know, consumers don't know the layer below and yet these brands are doing generative organic or fair for life. They're setting money. They're making sure everybody gets a livable wage of all those things and the retail and and and the retailer brands are not doing that. Well, that makes it really tough on these on these businesses as well.

Ben Mand - 01:14:26
And then just then also from a merchandising standpoint, they have the power to do end caps, which they sell. They make lots of money. I'm like, but do 1 on, like, responsible business, like, you know, a different way of farming and and then have a whole collection of brands on there. And not just Whole Foods, like Yeah. Target, all the other brands that target actually does a pretty good job of those of things as far as big retailers. But we need them to help.

Ben Mand - 01:14:55
It's it we won't get far if it's just a bunch of small manufacturers trying to do this and trying to break through, what you need is you need them to also sign up and putting it on shelf And then they can, just the way they frame it and with signage and stuff like that, make sure that everybody knows, like, oh, these are all you know, fair for life or these are all regenerative organic. And what does that mean? And why is that important? Like, there's, you know, straightforward things that they can do to do that. And they can charge for it. Right?

Ben Mand - 01:15:20
Some nominal fee that's not like, you know, like, not like what a big, big company can afford to pay, you know, the 100 and 1000 of dollars just to get your brand on an end cap. We're talking down on loans, but, like, it it then they share the burden of of this transition.

Kyle Krull - 01:15:46
Ben, we started this organization called the Resane Coalition a couple years ago, and you basically, like, that answers, like, the exact theory of change that we have. Like, to a tee. So you're very much speaking our language, my language, for sure. And we think there's a lot of opportunity there. We think it's also really nuanced and right now, especially with the competing certification landscape where retailers are having a difficult time trying to figure, okay, do do we just do ROCs or ROC plus identified? Is the ROC regenified land to market? What about, SCI? What about demeter?

Kyle Krull - 01:16:11
You know, so I think that they're having a really difficult time navigating this landscape because they rely so heavily on party certifications to begin with. And as we all know, regeneration is so nuanced and complex. Like, if there isn't an organization doing that work for them, I think it right now, it's just sort of the throwing arms and they're like, this is too hard. Yep. And that kinda goes back to, like, why an organization that does this needs to exist. Long story short, love that answer. I think you're spot on.

Kyle Krull - 01:16:35
And and I'm excited for where those sort of partnerships and activations are going to be in the next you know, 1 year, 2 years, 3 years because I really think we're gonna get there.

Anthony Corsaro - 01:16:53
100%.

Ben Mand - 01:16:56
Love it, man. Awesome. Thanks so

Anthony Corsaro - 01:16:57
much for joining us. Really appreciate it.

Ben Mand - 01:16:59
Yeah. I've I've really appreciate it. Thanks, guys.

Kyle Krull - 01:17:02
I appreciate your time, Ben.

Anthony Corsaro - 01:17:07
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