#73 - Allie O'Brien @ Harmless Harvest

Episode Recap:

ReGen Brands Recap #73 - Why Regenerative Is The Right Thing To Do AND Better For Business - (RECAP LINK)

Episode Transcript:

Kyle Krull - 00:00:15
Welcome to The ReGen Brands Podcast. This is a place for consumers operators and investors to learn about the consumer brands, supporting regenerative agriculture, and how they're changing the world. This is your host, Kyle, joined by my Coves, AC, gonna take us into the episode.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:00:33
On this episode, we have Allie O'Brien, who is the vice president of marketing at Harmless Harvest. Harmless Harvest is supporting regenerative agriculture with its regenerative organic certified coconut supply chain, which is now making its way in to label claims across their product portfolio. In this episode, we learn about harmless' unique supply chain in Thailand, sourcing the Nam Kham coconut, their work implementing regenerative agriculture practice on the ground through their recap program, how their regenerative organic sourcing is coming to life in product marketing today. And in the future, plus the support they're receiving from their parent company, Danone. Get your notepads out, folks, because Allie was dropping straight knowledge on this episode It was super interesting and informative to have our first VP of marketing on the show, and Allie went in-depth on all things related to creating meaningful marketing strategies for regenerative claims, whether we're talking certifications, packaging design, claims hierarchy, pricing architecture, in store promotion, channel specific execution, and so much more. Let's dive in. What's up, everybody? Welcome back to another episode of The ReGen Brands Podcast. Very excited today to have our friend Allie from Harvest Harvest joining us.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:01:36
So welcome, Allie.

Allie O'Brien - 00:01:48
Thanks. I'm happy to be here.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:01:50
Yeah. Excited to have you. And, I'm flying solo as our regular listeners will probably attest because Kyle's usually talking at this point of the episode. But really excited about this one. Allie and I had a really, really good introductory slash kind of prep call, and I think she's gonna bring a lot of reAllie keen marketing insights as our first kind of VP of marketing to join the podcast. So excited to have you. For those that don't know much about harvest harvest, which I'm sure is is not many, Allie, but give us the lay of the land. You know, what kind of products do y'all make? Where can people find your products today in terms of stores?

Allie O'Brien - 00:02:24
Yeah. Absolutely. So Harmless Harvest is an organic coconut products company. We're probably most famous for our coconut water that launched about 13 years ago, and has been gaining a ton of, loyalty and rabid fans ever since. And we can talk about, you know, why our coconut water is so great. And so special. It's the pink one for those who maybe aren't familiar with the brand name. We get a lot of recognition for being with the pink coconut water. But we think it tastes the street from the coconut as you can get, and so it's really crisp and refreshing, has those natural electrolytes.

Allie O'Brien - 00:02:51
But as a mission driven company. We've been looking for ways to upcycle and use more of the beautiful coconuts that we harvest for our water. And so that's really been the innovation pipeline, and machine for us as we look to launching smoothies that upcycled the coconut meat and yogurts that upcycled the coconut meat and really trying to use that whole coconut. So we also make non dairy coconut yogurts, non dairy coconut smoothies, and a drinkable non dairy yogurt as well.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:03:25
Yeah. Love it. It's been it's been exciting to see the product development pipeline kinda come to life. You know, I had to get off dairy or conventional dairy at least for a little while from an inflammation and gut perspective as I healed from an autoimmune disease. And so a lot of things coconut based were my replacement. And it was fun to kind of start consuming some of those other products as they they came on board. Especially the yogurt. I think I I think I've consumed my fair share of yogurt. I would love for you to tell the audience the origin story, but I wanna ask a random question because I am I drink a lot of coconut water, and I find that harmless does have a very distinct and unique taste.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:03:51
And you were kind of alluding to it there. Obviously, with the different color, is that because of the coconuts where they're sourced, the manufacturing, like, we're getting out of order here, but I'm I'm too curious not to ask that question.

Allie O'Brien - 00:04:12
Yeah. For sure. So, all coconut water would turn naturally pink over time, if it's processed in a certain way. So, it's clear when we extract it and when we bottle it, and then turns naturally pink over time, and that's because we microfilter instead of thermally pasteurizing or acidifying the product. So there's a number of ways that you can get to a sterile, clean, safe product, and we wanted ours to be as minimally, harsh on the product as possible because that's what preserves that street from the coconut taste or keeps that streak from the coconut taste. And so our process preserves that natural pinking, process that would happen and locks in, we think just that that excellent taste while making it safe to drink.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:04:58
Yeah. That's super interesting. And I mean, this theme comes up over and over again on on the podcast, which is like the the regenerative production doesn't stop at the farm gate. You know, it continues into the because a lot of those things that happen on the farm, if you're investing in a return of agriculture, they need to be maintained through the manufacturing process. So Yep. It's we we have, I don't know, it almost feels like all. I think this is episode 73 or 74 and it's like almost every single episode. We have some some kind of example there. But I think you mentioned 13 years.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:05:25
So it hasn't, you know, it hasn't been a super long time for the brand, but that's that's a that's a decent spell in CPG. And we know there's been quite a lot of growth and and then a lot of fun stuff along the way. So fill fill audience in just a little bit of the history

Allie O'Brien - 00:05:41
and and

Anthony Corsaro - 00:05:41
kind of the origin story of the brand, if you don't mind.

Allie O'Brien - 00:05:44
Yeah. I mean, the processing and the natural pinking that I talked about is in some ways part of that origin story. So our founders about 15 years ago set out not to create the best tasting coconut water, but to disrupt a supply chain and disruptive business model through conscious capitalism. So that was the ultimate goal that they had set out with, and they were scouring the world for products, and supply chains that they could do that too, and they were actually in Brazil trying acai products when they drank the coconut water street from the coconut and we're like, Wait a second. This tastes so much better than the stuff that you can then you can buy, bottled, like, light bulb moment. We should be trying to find a way to make coconut water that actually tastes like drinking straight from the coconut. And so then they scoured the world for the best tasting coconuts, found those in Thailand, we are single sourced, the Nam Ham coconut is the only coconut that we use in our coconut water. That name and timing fragrant ones. So they're known for being really sweet and light and fragrant.

Allie O'Brien - 00:06:39
We think just the best tasting And so from there, it was off to the races of, you know, how can you bottle this in a way that preserves that street from the coconut taste, and that's where the micro filtration piece was really critical in preserving, those those taste elements and those taste notes. So started selling about 13 years ago. And, yeah, the company has grown a ton. I think we've tripled in size since I've been here in the last 5 years. We know that consumers are incredibly loyal once they try us because our taste is so differentiated from what's on the market and then we think our loyalty is also driven in part by the mission and sustainability elements that have been consistent, throughout our business life. We were constantly looking for ways to do things better, and regenerative is only the latest and greatest piece of that journey.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:07:37
Yeah. I think the audience is gonna learn a lot because you have a really unique kind of perspective having been there for the last, 5 years. As you you'll have tripled in size and and growth. We know Danone's been involved as an investor and now owns the brand, but kinda leaves y'all alone. I think is the way to continue to be on the last call. So I think that's an interesting dynamic. And then also you as the marketer has kind of been a part of this process where they're They've always been sourcing from these regenerative systems, but I think the way that y'all were branding and and telling that story was initially, what was it called, recap? Or there was a what was the acronym that was originally used?

Allie O'Brien - 00:08:10
Yeah. A recap. The regenerative coconuts agriculture project. So that was kicking off right when I started and happy to sort talk about, you know, why we invested in that and and what our regenerative journey has been, if that makes sense at this time.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:08:25
Yeah. For sure. And I think it's, like, interesting going from that to now being rock certified. And then, like, so what was the past? What kind of was that journey like? What does the future look like getting getting a load on and all of that, I think, would be really good insights for everybody.

Allie O'Brien - 00:08:38
Yeah. So I think there's an interesting story about just cogonut farming in Thailand in general in that organic doesn't necessarily command a price premium, which is wild. That's interesting. Yeah. It's because China is such a big market mover. They buy a ton of nom nom coconuts as well. And so if we go and say, hey. We'll pay 10%, 20%, whatever premium for organic. China will just come in and say, fine. We'll pay that for conventional.

Allie O'Brien - 00:08:59
And so you just have this constant escalation

Anthony Corsaro - 00:09:08
Wow.

Allie O'Brien - 00:09:09
And so we we've had to work really hard to, keep our farmers interested in organic, and our agronomists on the ground doing an amazing job of, keeping that network super strong and scaling it for our growth. But There's an element of we need to create a financial incentive to farm better. Organic alone doesn't necessarily create that. And then you layer on the fact that drought, which is cyclical in Thailand with the El Nino. So we're getting getting to the end of a drought drought year this year, creates fewer coconuts per tree and fewer milliliters for coconut, and we know we face this on a cyclical nature. So how can we climate proof? Because organic doesn't really touch the climate element.

Allie O'Brien - 00:09:52
How can we touch our farms in a climate positive way that makes them more resilient to climate change and therefore creates this financial incentive. Like, at the end of the day, our farmers are going to need this financial incentive to opt in when the market structures aren't necessarily there otherwise. And so our goal and and where we initially launched with recap was, okay, what does a regenerative model for coconut farming look like? How can we entice farmers to adopt that. Let's go and study the various regenerative practices, see which ones have the best, you know, financial impact, whether that be through greater yields or additional revenue streams, that was the ultimate goal. And so about 5 years ago, the team was like, okay. Let's just let's go give farmers compost. Let's go give them some intercrops.

Allie O'Brien - 00:10:42
Let's go give them some cover crops and and just subsidize it for him and see how things go and our board at the time said, well, okay. Wait a minute. The Danone Ecosystem Fund is actually funded an organic strawberries project in Morocco that looked at providing inputs to those farmers and helping provide the education and the training why don't we see if there's funding to do something for regenerative agriculture in Thailand? And so we said, okay. That actually sounds like a great idea. Let's let's cost share some of these learnings. Yeah.

Allie O'Brien - 00:11:15
And so we wrote a concept note, got that approved, and then recap kicked off in in 2020. And we started with 10 farmers in our pilot program across, I think, like, 7 different types of regenerative practices, We ultimately scaled that to 350 farmers. There was lots of other, learnings and developments along the way. I think we created 3 different formulas farm on farm compost among many other things beyond just enrolling and engaging farmers in the program. And then it concluded last year, and we actually made all those learnings and materials open source. So those are available in both English and in Thai for anyone who wants them. And now we're in the next phase of, okay, how can we scale this?

Allie O'Brien - 00:11:56
How can we continue to drive that financial incentive for farmers? Because I think they're still work and learnings to be done there.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:12:12
Yeah. Oh my god. I have, like, 14 bullet points popping in my head. I have no idea where to go. That was that was so good. It's such a good overview. And I love like, your articulation sounded like you had it sounded like your role was director of ops. Or director of supply chain. Like, that's how in-depth you understood. And, well, I I just appreciate that. Like coming from the VP of marketing, and I feel like a lot of times, any any brand above a certain size, people wanna automatically hit the easy button of like, oh, this is just this is just like marketing propaganda BS.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:12:33
They don't actually do this work. They don't know what they're about. It's not like you guys are humongous, but you guys are a scaled brand, you know. And so I think it's easy a lot of times to to look at things that way. And it's very clearly not the case here. And so I really just, like, respected and admire that.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:12:58
The the other thing that really stood out to me was this continues to be a recurring theme of the on farm profitability, right, which is we have the certification programs. We have some brands that are getting a price premium for their products that are certified, we can say there's correlation there, but I don't think we can say there's causation there yet. So you know, we can't really for sure say there's a regenerative premium yet. We know there's an organic premium in the macro that didn't apply to this supply chain. So you have you have all these factors kind of circling there. And what you end up with is, hey.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:13:30
We can get these practices implemented by making it more profitable for the farmer. Which I think at the end of the day, you know, there's a lot of kind of ways that we can, have net positive return of impact. Like, that one is always going to move the needle more than any other ones in my opinion.

Allie O'Brien - 00:13:53
Yeah. Yeah. It has to be, motivating because changing a family farm that's been in the family for generations is not it's hard to do that just on heartstrings alone. Right? So there needs to be an incentive, and a financial commitment from a company like us. So helping those farmers go on that journey and the providing the data and the rationale is is part of it, but then also, you know, where can we provide support on materials? Where can we roll farmers in developing that compost connecting them to other farmers to purchase that compost, and just building that network because the supply chains just aren't there, the food supply chain needs to change. Right? Like, if these farmers are gonna invest in intercropping, like, we need a food supply chain that's gonna offload those intercrops that maybe aren't as scaled as they would be on a monoculture farm, in a way that that builds that revenue for those farmers and builds that incentive for them to invest in the intercropping.

Allie O'Brien - 00:14:34
So it's it's daunting. But we're super committed. And and I think, you know, those that are adopting it are seeing really positive results and We're now we've now set an audacious goal of what if we could get 50% revenue improvement from regenerative farms? Like, that That might be crazy. Maybe we land at 20, maybe we land at 30, but, like, let's try and get them 50%. And what do those tactics look like where are we gonna get the best bang for the buck? There is no silver bullet.

Allie O'Brien - 00:15:18
It's gonna have to be multiple practices, which is better for the earth anyway, but, You know, whether it's, coconuts are farmed in canals, which I think is really interesting. So there's you know, rows of trees and then in between the rows, there's this these water canals. And that's because we harvest young coconuts, and so if they were to fall into the ground when you cut them off, they would bruise and damage. And so they drop into the water and then they collect it from the canals. It's really cool. You should be, actually just refreshed our mission web page on our website. Yesterday.

Allie O'Brien - 00:15:51
And so there's a lot of great new imagery that the team captured from some of our regenerative photo shoots, but, yeah, these beautiful canals, but we actually learned that 46% of our greenhouse gas emissions come from the coconut farms themselves. Which I think Woah. People's minds, you're like, how can the farm be this, like, you're shipping coconut water from Thailand to the US? Surely, it's your shipping. Like, well, actually logistics are, like, 5% of our emissions. But what's happening is all of the plant waste is falling into the miles and then decomposing and releasing methane or you have other, farm waste on the property that's not necessarily being utilized well and decomposing and and causing emissions.

Allie O'Brien - 00:16:25
And so how do we introduce fish into the canals to control some of that waste. Wow. The duck the duck weed as well and help, make sure that the erosion elements and all of, like, just a completely healthy ecosystem them. And then the farmers can sell the fish. Right? Like, how can we think about complete circularity on the farm, in ways that help us achieve our regenerative goals, but also help us achieve our climate goals because we do believe that regenerative agriculture is going to be a huge enabler for us in reaching net 0, which is our ultimate climate goal.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:17:16
Yeah. Yeah. So many, once again, so many things to unpack there I I think one thing that's interesting is it's really about waste mitigation and upcycling of waste more than it's like the actual agriculture practices or that net. GHT issues. So that's that's super interesting. And then another interesting piece here is, like, Danone's been on y'all's cap table. They own y'all now, like, said, I think they're pretty hands off, but they've clearly supported these projects in this work. So we'd love for you to just talk through the journey of maybe their input and support along the way in the work that y'all have done on region ag?

Allie O'Brien - 00:17:49
Yeah. Danone has been a great partner. They've really understood where they can provide support where it makes sense to leave the brand alone and let harmless be harmless and and do what it does best. So I'm super grateful for that. But, yeah, the Danone ecosystem fund 50 percent, co funded the recap project and then was there along the way providing resources you know, we don't have a dedicated, at least in the US, a dedicated sustainability person. Right? There's definitely a big big team in Thailand, and we do have a sustainability manager there, but, there's not a huge, part of the organization that works on these things as their single day job. It's something that we do because we love it or we're passionate about it.

Allie O'Brien - 00:18:30
And so Danone was able to provide a lot of expertise, people whose, you know, full job is sustainability and they live and breathe that. And so there was a lot of great subject matter expertise that they were able to bring to the project, and provide along the way and, just general support. So that was that was really welcomed and really appreciated. Mhmm.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:18:56
Yeah. That makes a ton of sense. And mean, it's great to see. Like, we have, I think, everyone at this point making big net 0 commitments or regenerative agriculture commitments and the fact that this project was not only financially supported, but, categorized and summarized, and that is open source, I think, is is really cool. And you've already given us a ton of kind of nuggets of insight from that already, but anything that was we'll link it in the show notes. Anything from the recap stuff that's been published publicly that was, like, super informative or was, something that y'all didn't expect or was, like, a really you know, potent learning from from all that work?

Allie O'Brien - 00:19:36
Yeah. I mean, I think the fact that there's no silver bullet was an important learning. I think there was no single, hey, do intercropping and you're good. I think it is powerful, and that lets us know that, like, gotta just keep moving on all of these things. But we did evaluate, the practices against their benefits to the ecosystem, their benefits on the soil, their benefits on climate, and then their financial, return for farmers. And I think we did learn that three rows to the top and really checked all four of those boxes, and that was in turning the farm residue into compost. Implementing cover cropping and then implementing intercropping. I think those were the best thing for the buck that we were able to And so those are definitely things that we're continuing, to push forward, but it all depends on the farmer's needs. Right? We work with over 300 farms Some of them are small. Some of them are bigger.

Allie O'Brien - 00:20:29
You don't have this overwhelmingly industrialized agriculture in Thailand that you do here in the US. You really are on the ground working with the individual farms or our agronomists are and saying, okay. Well, actually, you know, you need more pollinator penetration. And so let's let's, get stingless bees onto your property. Let's look at vermicompost. Maybe those are more impactful for you than the big three that work at that some of the other farms.

Allie O'Brien - 00:20:56
So it really is customized tailored sort of farm by farm basis. And I think there's beauty in that, but there's, you know, challenges in that too. It's more resource intensive to really bring folks along on the journey.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:21:17
So Yeah. Well, it sounds like you'll have have an exceptional data set and really a lot to be proud of in terms of managing that complexity and still having some some hard kinda nice data to to back up the work and the the future work, right, and what you've learned from it. Y'all are now rock. You're now regenerative organic certified. I think you told me last time we talked that the seal is just now kinda getting on to some some product labels. When when did the transition kinda happen from focusing on the recap project and then turning that into rock, like, and what has that journey been like?

Allie O'Brien - 00:21:50
Yeah. For sure. So recap wound down in August believe of 2023. And so it was this, you know, what's next question? And we'd always had our eye toward certification and thinking that that would be something that would be impactful, and really help us celebrate all the efforts that we've made. And so in October, we did our audit, and we're certified at the bronze level. I was really encouraged to the audit report and see that we're actually meeting gold in a ton of the areas. And then, you know, we have a number of areas where we're bronze. And so Those will be areas that we continue to work as we'll just overall farmer enrollment and implementation. And we have a goal of a 100% coconuts from regenerative practices by 2030.

Allie O'Brien - 00:22:32
So

Anthony Corsaro - 00:22:39
Nice.

Allie O'Brien - 00:22:40
That goal line keeps moving from a quantity standpoint as the business keeps growing. So successfully, please call our team is like, okay. This is really ambitious even though it maybe seems like that's, you know, 6 years to do it. It's like, yeah, but it's getting more and more each year. And so we, yeah, we conducted the audit in October passed at the bronze level. We're super proud of that. I think we have, 78% of our farms are engaging into at least to regenerative practices, which is amazing. I think 43% of them have cover crops.

Allie O'Brien - 00:23:04
So just some really cool statistics that that we're able to come out of that and decided, you know, okay, we wanna put this on packaging. We ultimately decided to put it on the side panel of our bottles. We just have more room for exposition there. I think one of the challenges that we think we face is consumer understand or we know we face this consumer understanding of regenerative organic. And so we wanted that space to do some education. So we put it on the side of the panel.

Allie O'Brien - 00:23:39
We wrote a paragraph about what regenerative agriculture means, how we're on this journey, and then we have a QR code that links to our new web page, which goes into as much detail as a consumer could possibly want about regenerative. But we just didn't ultimately feel like we could trade off the space on the front of pack yet for that claim. Regenerative is not as well known as regular organic. We felt it was important to keep that certification on there. We're Fair for life certified, which we are really proud of, and that's important to have on front of pack. And so my hope is that, you know, we as brands can help, educate consumers and do some of that heavy lifting, but that also that the organization are there along the journey with us and helping create consumer pull for regenerative products because we're small.

Allie O'Brien - 00:24:17
We have very low brand awareness, and top of funnel marketing is probably not gonna be led by regenerative. Right? Like, I need people to understand what harmless is before I can start talking to them about regenerative. And so I think that the industry and that the organizations and the trades can really help create that consumer pull. And so excited to partner with them on that in the future.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:24:56
Yeah. It feels like that's the next expedition for all of us. And we've been talking about it a lot on the podcast for, I mean, year now, years, I guess, maybe plural. And, you know, the right order of the right order of operations has occurred, which is, hey, we gotta get the trade to understand what this term is. We gotta have kind of the Regen Wars about defining and certifying it. I get all that. We have to kinda get those programs established, get the farmers on board, get the brands on board, but I do think we've reached kind of a critical mass in doing that. And now it is time to shift some resources to that consumer education because what we've seen in the broader region ecosystem is, like, kiss the ground, common ground, biggest little farm.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:25:26
Like, those have had broad, like, overarching kind of awareness, but that might not drive direct point of purchase awareness and intent and action. And, you know, I think I'm gonna talk out of two sides of my mouth here. Like, we have to do that, and I think there's wins to be had, but it's still marginal compared to just operating a great CPG brand and the fundamentals. Like, regenerative is always gonna be I think you used to use a very good marketing terminology. You said it was more of a loyalty and retention. Play.

Allie O'Brien - 00:26:07
Yeah. I think. Mhmm.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:26:08
Yeah. And I think I think it will always be that, but we still need to invest in seeing how far we can push it as a primary driver, which I don't think it it exists at any significance, you know, at the moment.

Allie O'Brien - 00:26:19
Yeah. Yeah. For sure. And I think retailers can be a part of that. That journey for us. I think we're we've seen Whole Foods, make a lot of positive, steps in that direction, and we know that that brands that benefit the planet and do so through regenerative practices are going to be one of their consideration sets as they look at line reviews, which I think super great and super important. Like, we should be rewarding the brands that are doing the work, and, and walking the walk and putting our money where our mouth is. So it's great to see retailers stepping into that fold, and I hope that more will follow.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:26:55
Yeah. And I I think once again, it's complex. We have appreciate that Whole Foods and other retailers are thinking about it in terms of sourcing. I believe they need to do more in terms of, like, actual marketing execution in store. And I'm curious, like, for you as a marketer, what is that? Do you think it's POS? Do you think it's, you know, shelf talkers? Like, what do you see as leverage points to bring that consumer education more into the retail environment?

Allie O'Brien - 00:27:23
Yeah. I definitely think, POS needs to be a big part of it. I think that in general, there isn't a ton of of POS at Whole Foods. And so that's a huge benefit to brands. And I think that that's, like, that's something that they can attract brands with is, hey. You'll get this POS benefit if you have a regenerative story to tell. We, you know, we reserve our POS for things like regenerative or bigger investments in bets, because that is really where the consumer is making a lot of their decision. And so if you have the opportunity to tell that, that sustainability message that maybe is gonna tip the scale for them to try you versus someone who hasn't made that investment. I think that's huge and that and that's powerful.

Allie O'Brien - 00:28:02
I think that as they think about their, you know, off shelves and some of those really attractive promo periods and who gets selected for those, this kind of criteria can absolutely become a part of that decision making. I think that those kind of incentives would be huge.

3 - 00:28:22
Yeah. We have we have a lot

Anthony Corsaro - 00:28:23
of work to do there. I think our big concern is with the multiple certification programs and even some non certified claims that are legit. What happens when a consumer's walking down an aisle and they see regenerative in 4 or 5 different products with different expressions of that. You know, how do we how do we not totally kill the term, but also let each individual claim certification, whatever, express its essence and and stand out for what's different about that? That that'll just be a collective challenge that I don't think we have an answer to today, but, you know, I'm I'm keen to watch it and potentially help solve it if if that's a a role that we're asked

Allie O'Brien - 00:28:59
to play. Yeah. That's awesome. I think it's it's still evolving. And I look forward to seeing play out. I don't think I'm gonna be the one to solve it. Yeah.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:29:13
I I think it's it's gonna take all of us, for sure. So it's coming to some product packaging. You might have already said this, but if I miss it, I'm sorry. Is it coming to all skews? A certain number of skews? How did you think about that? Like, I'm curious how that how that thought process was?

Allie O'Brien - 00:29:32
Yeah. So it's coming to most of our coconut water beverages. So all of our coconuts are regenerative certified at the bronze level. But because of the percentage requirements for labeling, needing to be at that 95% content that excludes a couple of our skews, and we didn't really wanna parse things out further and say, made with and sort of the the caveats that you need to do when you're below the 95 percent level. So, I mean, our coconuts are certified at the bronze level. So regardless of what products you're buying, if they have our coconuts in it, you can you can feel good about that. But from a claims standpoint, and a labeling standpoint, we're putting that on our coconut water, on our sparkling coconut water, our coconut water with pulp or coconut water with aloe, which is a huge portion of our portfolio. But it will not be on our yogurts or, our smoothies. Although some of our smoothies do meet the requirement. We just haven't touched those labels yet.

Allie O'Brien - 00:30:24
It's a big project to touch. Yeah. Every label in the portfolio or most of the labels in the portfolio. And so, yeah, I think it's it would be amazing if it we could have all of our products certified, but it's tough. I mean, We can't necessarily find regenerative organic certified watermelon juice so that we can get our watermelon coconut water certified. Right? Like Right.

Allie O'Brien - 00:30:47
Those options don't exist for some of our products. It's not just, you know, the fact that that we're at the bronze levels that there are no other ingredients in some of these categories that we plan that we could get that are regenerative organic certified. So that's something we continue to talk to our partners and sourcing, ingredient suppliers about, but, it's not not quite there yet.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:31:19
Yeah. It's just that classic, like, progress over perfection mentality. And Mhmm. I really appreciate you sharing that because, you know, when we started the podcast, we didn't really know what it wanted to become. But it has clearly become this source for more B2B information because what we're trying to do back what we're trying to do is, like, peel back the layers on how complex. This work really is. And so I think we take for granted the fact that we walk into a Whole Foods, we grab a harvest harvest coconut off the shelf, and we see the cool new, you know, side panel with the SERP, with the copy, with the QR code. But, like, the amount of time that goes into designing that, thinking about that, ordering the labels, making sure the labels work, setting the manufacturer of the labels for those that are the same, bottle size as the watermelon SKU, but the watermelon SKU is not gonna have that label. Like, just the, you know, the amount of intricacies and and complexity there is is really important to note and I think to understand that, you know, I I got some feedback from someone the other day and they were like, what you're doing on the podcast is showing people how much efforts going into, like, really building the supply chain and the commercialization piece of this that you know, the conventional peers to regenerative brands, like, don't have to do.

Allie O'Brien - 00:32:34
Right. I think one of the things I'm most proud of too is that, like, we don't have to do it either, but

3 - 00:32:39
we are.

Allie O'Brien - 00:32:39
Like, it's that's true. Like, everything that we do from a mission standpoint. Like, there's There's no one saying you have to do this or you won't be on shelf here. But we've made huge investments and huge commitments, whether it's in our packaging format, whether it's in our claims and certification, whether it's our farming practices. I mean, 1,000,000 and 1,000,000 of dollars of investment because it's the right thing to do. And we we believe in it. And but we also believe that business can be better for it. And I think we've proven that. Right?

Allie O'Brien - 00:33:08
Like, we have, you know, tripled in 5 years while doing all of these things. And I hope that that sends a powerful message to other brands, and I hope that consumers and I I think they are starting to wake up, but there is a difference between what they say in polls and surveys about how important a brand's sustainability practices are and how they vote with their pocket book at shelf. Yep. I think the tide is turning on that, and we'll be, you know, well positioned as it continues to turn. But like you said earlier, like, I think loyalty and retention are huge places that we can win with practices like this. If there's a competing product or a semi competing product, but they're not making these investments. Like, more and more, this is gonna matter to consumers and more and more.

Allie O'Brien - 00:33:48
You know, I think they'll pick us because, okay, I can get this coconut water that doesn't do any of that stuff, or I can get this coconut water that's, you know, close to being, you know, climate neutral or making efforts to be climate neutral, and and doing all these great things, and I feel wanna feel good about that. And, and so the the success will follow.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:34:18
Yeah. And it's super clear that the team's bought in, and y'all are doing some really interesting stuff and cool stuff that maybe doesn't have to be done, but there's a there's a compelling you know, sense of feeling within the crew that it should and and is going to be done. You know, I'm curious what you can share on, like, the Danone influence there.

Allie O'Brien - 00:34:37
Right?

Anthony Corsaro - 00:34:37
Like, they've been on the cap table. Now they own the brand. Like, we've, like we've said a couple times, they're not they're not micromanaging y'all, but with the impact work, you know, is there are are there high level strategies and commitments affecting 20% of what y'all do? Is it affecting 50% of what y'all do? Like, I'm assuming they're specific things that you have to do that are aligned with that. And then there's also some independent stuff that y'all just do that you think is right for for your brand. So curious what you can share there.

Allie O'Brien - 00:35:04
Yeah. I mean, I think Danone is relatively progressive for a big CPG company, and so I'm grateful that that's that's where we've landed. To known as B Corp certified. So that's one where it's like, hey, harmless, like, we need you guys to get B Corp certified. You know, we know we'll pass. We feel really good. We actually did the audit a couple of years ago, and we're like, okay, like, we would pass, but, you know, we're fair for life. We've got a couple other things going on. Like, let's let's work on those, but now is the time to get E Corp certified to make sure that we're, you know, helping to know and meet read that reach that 100 percent of brands in the portfolio goal that they have.

Allie O'Brien - 00:35:28
And then really it's more about, like, what's the right journey for harmless And so they've been supportive, of the regenerative push. We obviously moved to a 100% recycled plastic in all of our bottles. And we felt that that was right for a number of reasons, but that's not necessarily because Danone said we needed to do it. It's more about what are the right choices for harmless as a mission led brand that maybe sort of spikes above all other brands as far as far as mission is concerned? But then also, hey. Let's make sure that we're getting that B Corp certification just so that we have a clean, you know, even representation. Yeah.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:36:21
Really cool. I have 2 super nerdy marketing questions that I don't even know if I used the the the formal correct terminology, but I'm gonna ask him anyway. One is, you know, as y'all started to think about rock and implement rock, like, how did that go into price architecture questions for various skews is is question 1. And question 2 is, you know, when you think about it as a marketer and maybe the differences in how the consumer approach is purchasing like a coconut water versus a yogurt versus smoothie has that played into kind of how you've thought through the strategy both short and long term of implementing the regenerative messaging in various products because it's a different consumption journey. We know that you're limited by the formulation kind of standards right now, and that's really driven the majority of those decisions. I've, you know, we've heard that, but I'm curious on, like, price architecture and specific consumption patterns of SKUs, like how that's affected the thought process.

Allie O'Brien - 00:37:18
Yeah. Those are good questions, and I think you absolutely use correct. It's different to me

Anthony Corsaro - 00:37:23
so hard on yourself. Good.

Allie O'Brien - 00:37:27
Oh, pricing, man. What a journey. We we are not taking price behind our regenerative actions. I think that part of that speaks to our commitment to these things are good for business. They're not necessarily a thing behind which business can or needs to take price. Like, if we're doing this right in the long term, this should be unlocking greater savings for our farmers, therefore greater pricing for us, and, you know, enabling our bottom line through greater access to supply during periods of drought where we don't necessarily see the price spikes that we've normally seen on our our inputs So there is no, pricing action behind this journey, thus far. And I think a lot of brands maybe would wouldn't approach it that way right now that that's not how we're thinking about it. And I'd love to say that it's because we wanna be benevolent and democratize access to regenerative organic products for consumers. And I mean, there's there's certainly some some truth to that, but, it's really rooted in our belief that this is what you need to do to drive a successful business.

Allie O'Brien - 00:38:35
It's not, and it's gonna make the business more profitable. And we're not seeing costs rise because of our implementation of regenerative organic practices. Therefore, why would we price it at a premium?

Anthony Corsaro - 00:39:00
Yeah. And I think the the not to cut you off before you get to the second part, but just to interject one piece of feedback, you know, that the value of death is is the is the hard part. Right? So Mhmm. It's very clear in all these systems. We get to an inflection point where it is more profitable. It's more sustainable. The supply chain's more resilient.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:39:09
The farmer's making more money, you know, and maybe that's an even over an oversimplification, but it's that valley of death for a lot of people where we lose them. Or it doesn't work. And it seems like that valet maybe was not as deep for y'all because the the programs and the practices were pretty much on place, and it was more tweaking than total whole change, you know, changes, which is which is still great and important. And Yeah. But I

Allie O'Brien - 00:39:41
mean, I think we benefit to some degree by being a perennial and not an annual. Right? Like, I think it's a certain agricultural systems are gonna be much harder to overhaul in a regenerative format and coconut farming while not easy. Maybe has fewer hurdles in some of those areas. So

Anthony Corsaro - 00:39:59
Yeah. And and to me, it's like, how do we create whatever the liquidity gap is in that valley of death for the commercial businesses around that supply chain to get them through? Because if it is gonna end up having all those outcomes, yes, we'll get there eventually. Is that 3 years for some? Is it is it 10 years for some? Is it 7 years for some? Know, what other factors? And I think we've just clearly seen there's a ton of complexity there depending on crop, region, brand size, etcetera.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:40:16
So that that makes the work that everyone does very hard, but our job is very fun in terms of, you know, the curiosity around those complexities, but, yeah, just just naming all that.

Allie O'Brien - 00:40:35
Totally. Yeah. And then to get to your to your second question, I think it really does lie in the product composition and the access to some of those other ingredients. I think to to some degree, to another degree, you know, beverage is still the biggest portion of our portfolio. And so, of course, it makes sense to really lean in on that. That's where we have the highest household penetration how we have the where we have the greatest brand awareness, and where we think that, you know, us announcing this certification and this progress is going to have the most impact Not to say yogurt isn't an incredibly fragmented and competitive category. It is, but I think some of the dynamics that drive it are also a little bit different and consumers maybe don't have mission or things like that quite as top of mind for that kind of purchase. So I I do think there is some some truth to that. It tends to be a bit more of a price and promotion driven category.

Allie O'Brien - 00:41:28
In the plant based side, you tend to see people shopping based on base. Do I want a coconut base? Do I want an almond base? Do I want, a cashew base? What what have you? And so I think there's room for that to be impactful, but maybe just a little less so.

Allie O'Brien - 00:41:42
You also just don't have any real estate on yoga.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:41:58
Yeah. Yeah.

Allie O'Brien - 00:41:59
That's where the POS could be so helpful, though, from the retailers. It's like, okay. Great. Like, give us the the ability because a lot of these things regenerative included requires longer form storytelling. This is not the no sugar added claim. Right? Like Right. That means something to a consumer in 3 words. Regenerative organic certified doesn't mean much right now to consumers in three words.

Allie O'Brien - 00:42:14
And so we need formats where we can do that longer form storytelling and drive that education, drive that impact. And so hopefully we'll see retailers and others lean into providing brands the opportunity to do that. Yeah.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:42:39
That's the fine line that, like, we have no idea what's gonna happen with because that on one side, we want regenerative to have the same resonance and simplicity that. Wounds free, keto, you know, whatever, all those, like, more binary simple claims. But we also see that that that kind of got organic and non GMO into trouble where those those claims and some others have been so simplified now that they're very effective and they're very scaled now, but did we lose some of the essence or value along the way. Mhmm.

Allie O'Brien - 00:43:09
I don't

Anthony Corsaro - 00:43:09
know how we serve both of those, you know, needs with with regen, especially with multiple definitions and certifications, but know, obviously, you have to see how it plays out.

Allie O'Brien - 00:43:18
Yeah. We recently did some brand, segmentation work, and we threw in a question, about whether or not consumers knew what regenerative organic was and, 11%. And this is a a subset of, like, premium functional beverage buyers. So not even necessarily your average, consumer and 11%. So that's that's tough. So there is a lot of work to do to build that meaning, and I think you're absolutely right that let's not let's make the sound byte meaningful, but let's not lose the impact by getting to the sound byte.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:43:54
Yeah. And that 11% number is actually pretty promising to me with where we're at. Because I still think we're so early innings, early innings with this. And, you know, I do think the I think the competitive advantage that regenerative organic brands have is, like, organic has a known meaning as a federal standard and it has a known price premium. So to me, you're starting at the highest point of commercial opportunity in terms of, monetizing your regenerative claim. You know, we'll see what happens in the future there, but I think If I'm putting my pure capitalist investor hat on and evaluating things, like, that's that's a straight fact. You know, that's that's invaluable. Okay. Another another nerdy marketing question that came up as we were talking through that. Is there any, thought given to channel? Right?

Anthony Corsaro - 00:44:28
Because it sounds like, you know, and my my expectation without knowing the answer is a lot of the business is in specialty natural channel, especially on the beverage side. But I assume, like, you'll have some club business. You have some mulo business as well. Probably a decent amount at this point. Like, have y'all thought about how region might activate differently by channel?

Allie O'Brien - 00:45:00
Yeah. I think, we are pretty well penetrated in club and middle of these days, which is great. And I do think that the message to that consumer might be different. And less well understood. I think, obviously, COVID's consumer is gonna be your most attuned, and then maybe your spouse consumer and your other sort of natural co op consumer, are gonna be the most attuned, and you may, at some of those smaller indies, have more of an opportunity to do the and do that longer form at shelf communication. It's certainly something that we talk about when we're selling in and talking to customers. In the Moulo and the club channel. I do wish that there would be more of a pull from them as they consider their sets. That we're seeing Whole Foods do. Yeah.

Allie O'Brien - 00:45:45
But from, like, an at store or online digital shelf standpoint, regenerative is not right now at the top of our communication priority. We only have, I think, point 5 percent unaided brand awareness. And so, obviously, in that context, it's gonna be more of an aided awareness standpoint, but, we have a lot of work to do just to get consumer even know what Harmless Harvest is, what the products are, why they're better before we can get into how they're better. So it is a lower, lower priority from a comp standpoint, especially as we get into Mulo, in club, I mean, you have retailers like Costco to whom sustainability is really important. I I feel like I see that more on the packaging side. I would love to start to see that more on some of these other elements beyond just packaging, which packaging is hugely important, but kind of going down.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:46:50
Do anything else. Literally just a product on pallet. So, like, you don't have I mean, maybe you can do the sampling.

Allie O'Brien - 00:46:55
It's really gonna have a huge impact. Like, I totally get that. But I think, like, thinking more about some of the upstream stuff, Because as we look at our greenhouse gas emissions, I think only 9% comes from packaging and packaging sources. So, yes, like, we've moved to re recycled plastic. We're constantly reducing cardboard and other forms of of packaging in our palettes and our and our workflow, but we can only touch so much of the pie if we're touching packaging. We can touch so much more if we're if we're touching the farming, if we're touching the coconut waste itself, So we'd love to see retailers start to bring a slightly broader definition to, sustainability, in various channels.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:47:38
That that sparked a manufacturing question. Do y'all own manufacturing? Does it happen in Thailand? Does it happen here? Are you doing one part of it? But then co mans are making, like, end products? Like, what's the manufacturing layout look like?

Allie O'Brien - 00:47:51
Yeah. So we have a facility in Thailand where we punched all the coconuts and extract the coconut water. We hand scoop the coconut meat there. And then we have a third party, who bottles it for us.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:48:04
Okay.

Allie O'Brien - 00:48:05
In Thailand. And then our yogurt is actually manufactured here in the United States. So we, freeze our coconut meat and ship that over and then produce it here. Just yogurt's have a much shorter shelf life. So you'd lose pretty much all of that if you're shipping it across the across the ocean, especially with shipping these days. So

Anthony Corsaro - 00:48:24
Yeah. Yeah. I know that's been quite fun, in a post COVID and post Ukraine Russia conflict environment. I'm

Allie O'Brien - 00:48:32
not sure. The Suez Canal just keeps cropping up as a challenge, which I didn't have on my bingo card a year, but here we are. Yeah.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:48:41
Well, I I am just so impressed by kind of the the depth and breadth that you're bringing to this conversation and your role, and it's so clear that y'all are interfacing so well cross functionally as a brand and even probably within that broader Danone universe. So I just think it's really cool, and and I commend y'all for that because can't do this work unless we commit to those kind of habits and activities. Which

Allie O'Brien - 00:49:03
is Definitely want to shout out our team in land. There's a huge team over there, a ton of agronomists, a sustainability manager, and, you know, other folks that are constantly working on solving these challenges for us and doing so in a way that moves the business forward. I mean, what an amazing challenge to work on, and they do an incredible job. And they have we have ambitious goals, and they're rising to that. So I definitely wanna acknowledge all the amazing work that they do.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:49:31
Yeah. Love that. We've talked a little bit about the future and various points of the of the conversation, but I wanna tee up that question, which is just like, what what's coming on the pipeline that you can share next 3, 5, 10 years. You know, what does the future for? What does the future for? How you implement regenerative look like?

Allie O'Brien - 00:49:48
Yeah. So like I said, 2030, 100 percent of coconuts from regenerative farms, that's the big ambitious goal. And as we continue to have really healthy growth that that is a really ambitious school. So that's is where we wanna go. Obviously, gold certification, I think, kinda comes along with that. But also, you know, how do we What's our part in educating the consumer? How can we be most effective at that? How do we think about that within the marketing funnel and how we're leveraging it?

Allie O'Brien - 00:50:15
But I think ideally we're we're getting more harmless harris in people's mouths and we're doing that through a variety of ways. And I hope regenerative becomes more of the reason that that consumers choose harmless. But at the end of the day, we wanna grow and make the business as big as possible because it's gonna support these practices. And if those practices then become a greater reason for why consumers are choosing harmless, all the better. But I think really the pushes on, we know we have superior products We know we make them in a superior way, and the more we can sell, the more good we can do. Like, we're constantly plowing that that back into the business and trying to achieve that that circularity, and ultimately live into that conscious capitalism mission that our founders had 15 years ago.

Allie O'Brien - 00:50:59
So, That that's the goal.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:51:14
Yeah. I love that. And that's, you know, we we continue to see that as a theme as well, which is kind of like, It's definitely important for someone to grade the work that's happening and for someone to try and tie that in to the consumer, which we've talked about both at length in this conversation. But I think what we're missing and where our biggest gap is, which which we're hoping to fill with some of the things that we're gonna launch soon is we just need to meet more people supporting the work because, ultimately, Whether it's tied to regenerative or not, if these brands that are doing the work don't have the commercial outcomes to grow, thrive, and and survive really at the at the baseline, you know, not gonna continue to do it or ever expand it. So love it. That kinda underpins the the whole strategy there. So I think it's the right and needed order of operations. Yeah.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:51:50
Well, this has been a super fun conversation, Allie. So so informative and insightful. Appreciate it. We'll take it home with the final question that we ask everybody, which is a rather daunting one, but excited to hear your response. It's how do we get regen brands to that 50% market share by 2050?

Allie O'Brien - 00:52:16
Oh, man. Okay. We have some time. We have some time. Yeah.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:52:20
Take take some time to think. You've got some time to to implement. You know? Let it take in.

Allie O'Brien - 00:52:26
I mean, I think that one as, like, consumers We need to be voting with our wallets. Like, if I'm working on a regenerative brand and I'm not biasing regenerative brands and products in my own purchasing, like, we're due. So I hope that at a minimum, everyone is is living living this, breathing this, and buying this, because that's going to create the poll from retailers for more brands to adopt these practices because they're going to see them performing better. Yeah. Another way to drive those velocities on brands like this is seeing, you know, I I think there will ultimately have to be some consolidation and some sort of anointing of what the certifying body is and what that certifying seal is. Because multiple is only gonna create con confusion with consumers, and we do need clear, consistent, you know, marching direction. So, like, you know, it's not

Anthony Corsaro - 00:53:28
my I got my popcorn ready for that one to play out. Yeah. I'm with you, and it's gonna be interesting to watch.

Allie O'Brien - 00:53:35
Yeah. I think I think that's important. I'm not picking sides. And, so I think that that will help drive clarity for the consumer as will that group and various other groups driving consumer education and awareness, and creating that consumer demand at shelf and then I honestly think at, like, a policy level. Like, I would love to see, and this is not my area of expertise, but I would love to see more effort by the US DDA, I would love to see. I mean, we we're seeing Colorado and California try and lead from the front, but, like, I don't know how effective they're gonna be, like, government is not always great at, leading from the front on these things, but I do think that they can help provide, some leadership from a consolidation standpoint, from a clear goalpost setting standpoint, from an certainly from an incentive pharma standpoint. Like, the USDA is incredibly well funded. We're giving a ton of subsidies to monoculture, non organic, industrial agriculture, where are the dollars for these kinds of transitions and these kinds of programs? That's something that I would love to hear people start talking more about.

Allie O'Brien - 00:54:45
And I think We can do that, but, again, it just, like, it all comes down to creating the consumer demand for these products because that's gonna get people to move. And so we need to be living and breathing it. The organizations need to be investing in creating consumer awareness And then we should all be asking our elected officials what they're doing to support the evolution to regenerative organic agriculture. I don't know that that's a super satisfying answer. There's much like with our regenerative transition on our coconut farms. There's probably no silver bullet.

Allie O'Brien - 00:55:16
But my god, I hope that we we put our money where our mouth is. We live into what we're saying on surveys about how these kinds of things are important. And that at the individual level through our work or through, you know, the products that we purchase, we're really moving this forward.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:55:43
Yeah. I mean, those are the 3 buckets I think we get the most, and I think they are probably the 3 most catalytic buckets. It's consumer demand, better industry execution, and policy. A piece on the policy front that I have no idea how to talk about correctly, but it's very intriguing to me is obviously, the USDA's main goal is to support, you know, production agriculture in the United States, but they also do a lot import export that I'm not familiar with and don't claim to be an expert on. And so I'm super intrigued by what opportunities are there for brands like Karma Harvest and many others source from outside the US, but commercialize in the US and support agriculture systems there, especially like in the global south with smaller farmers because those those commercial enterprises are still based here in the US. They still, you know, have a huge economic impact on the states. They're producing products that consumers want and and consume at a high level that you can't grow here in the US. So I have no idea what we do in the Farm Biller with the USDA to support more brands like that that maybe aren't sourcing from US farmers, but I think that's also super important.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:56:38
And your your comments just sparked me to think and get more curious about that. So I'm excited to learn more about that.

Allie O'Brien - 00:56:53
Yeah. Absolutely. I think that's very critical.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:56:57
Yeah. So people that wanna check out harm us more, it's just ww.harmlessharvest.com, if I'm remembering correct. Right?

Allie O'Brien - 00:57:05
That's correct. Or on Instagram and Tiktucket. At hardware service.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:57:10
Cool. Thanks so much for joining us. This was awesome. Appreciate it.

Allie O'Brien - 00:57:13
Awesome. Thanks, Anthony. You had a great time.

3 - 00:57:19
For show notes, episode transcripts and more information on guests and what we discuss on the show, check out our website regen-brands.com. That is regen-brands.com You can also find our regen recaps on the website. Regen recaps take less than 5 minutes to read and cover all the key points of the full hour long conversations. You can check out our YouTube channel, ReGen Brands Podcast for all of our episodes with both video and audio. The best way to support our work to give us a 5 star rating on your favorite podcast platform, subscribe to future episodes, and share the show with your friends. Thanks for tuning into The ReGen Brands Podcast brought to you by the Regen Coalition and Outlaw Ventures. We hope you learned something new in this episode, and it empowers you to use your voice, your time, and your dollars to help us build a better and more regenerative food system.

3 - 00:58:02
Love you guys.