#38 - Craig Camp @ Troon Vineyard

Episode Recap:

ReGen Brands Recap #38 - Wine's Regenerative, Gold Standard - (RECAP LINK)

Episode Transcript:

Disclaimer: This transcript was generated with AI and is not 100% accurate.

Kyle Krull - 00:00:15
Welcome to the ReGen Brands Podcast. This is a place for consumers, operators and investors to learn about the consumer brands, supporting regenerative agriculture and how they're changing the world. This is your host, Kyle, joined by my co-host ac who's going to take us into the episode.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:00:33
On this episode, we have Craig Camp who is the General Manager at Troon Vineyard. Troon Vineyard is a regenerative organic certified and demeter, biodynamic certified Vineyard and wine brand. It is one of only four farms in the world to hold the distinction of being regenerative organic certified at the gold level. In this episode, we learn about Craig's lifetime love affair with wine and how he landed at Troon. He details the vineyard's journey from a conventionally farmed, lifeless plot of land to an abundant and biodiverse ecosystem that it is today. Plus, we learn about the nuances of bringing wine to market and its potential to be a leading category in the regenerative transition. Craig has been in the wine game for over 35 years and we were super lucky to have him on to share his wealth of knowledge with us. Tons of super informative information and in-depth info in this one. Let's go. What's up everybody?

Anthony Corsaro - 00:01:14
Welcome back to another episode of The ReGen Brands Podcast. Very excited today to have our friend Craig from Troon Vineyard joining us. So welcome Craig.

Craig Camp - 00:01:36
Uh Happy to be here. Excited to chat. You know, I can talk about regenerative uh at the, at nauseum. So to no limit

Kyle Krull - 00:01:46
you, you've come to the right place. I think we are that way. And uh that's, that's part of why this doing this is so much fun because, you know, talking to strangers about Regen is hard because nobody really wants to talk about it. That's not necessarily true, but it's uh it's a lot more fun to talk about it with people who get it and we can kind of share this passion we all have, right? Um So I'm excited to do this episode. Um You know, this is our second episode with the winery and you got, this is just a category I'm not super familiar with and I learned a lot of the last ones. So I'm really excited to dive in and learn more about Troon. Um For those who are unfamiliar with your winery, your company, give us a quick lay of the land. Like, what sort of wines do you produce? Where can people purchase your product today? What sort of channels are you in? Is it primarily retail? Is it food service?

Kyle Krull - 00:02:16
You know, what's the lay of the land look like?

Craig Camp - 00:02:31
So uh true and vineyard, we're in extreme southwest southern Oregon. Everybody thinks about the Willett Valley up north when they think of Oregon wine. But they're here in the Applegate Valley, in the Rogue Valley. There are um over 100 wineries. So it's a very significant uh wine growing region. So we are located uh 25 miles from California and 60 miles from the, the Pacific Ocean. And as I look out my window here, I'm surrounded by the, the sis mountains which uh really define our area. We're kind of a, I, I say a transitional area between the, the cooler weather, cooler, wet weather of uh northern Oregon and uh the drier, warmer weather, Northern California. So it's a really interesting place uh to farm because of that. I think, you know, transitional areas make for more uh interesting complex uh uh food, the flavor profiles. So we are uh one of 13 dimeter biodynamic farms in Oregon Certified. And we are one of four farms in the world that is regenerative organic gold certified.

Craig Camp - 00:03:15
So, uh we are really dedicated to this, this process and I love talking about it because, you know, I always say, you know, we've got our, our 100 acres here is gonna change the world. But if we can convince other people to farm the way we're farming and part of that is showing that, you know, you can do this um uh uh profitably, you know, it's not whether, you know where there's no, no, with no margin, there's no mission as they say. So, you know, for us, uh you know, we, we feel our certifications are part of that uh method to communicate what we're doing. And uh the fact that we can put these um certifications on our, our labels, I think really communicates to consumers that there is uh something to, to look into and, and check. So we, you know, we have 100 acres here. I have about 50 acres of vines.

Craig Camp - 00:04:07
Our vines are all uh dedicated to classic Southern French varieties. We kind of run the gamut. I have 21 different varieties planted here and we focus on blends. But, you know, we, we're focused on, on, on reds like Sara and, and for whites, uh Vermentino, uh Marson Russ, things like that. So, the Classic Roan varieties um are, are uh just ideal for this climate. It's a really unique climate.

Craig Camp - 00:04:33
And um on, on top of that, we have uh 300 cider apple trees, uh uh four acres of hay. We have lambs, uh you know, sheep and, and chickens and a three acre vegetable and fruit garden. So we have our own farmstand and it's so it's a, it's, it's a really biodiverse farm that's part of our, our philosophy. And uh as far as uh finding our wines, we are distributed in 17 states and three Cali, three Canadian provinces and uh of course, uh, like everybody else, we have our website turn vineyard dot com. And, uh, you know, because our, our wines are uh sold generally in smaller shops, not big grocery stores and restaurants. So, you know, if you have a, uh, uh, uh, a natural wine store or wine bar in your town, you're likely to find, find true Vineyard wines.

Kyle Krull - 00:05:49
Gotcha. That's a lot to unpack. There's a million questions we could probably ask you. But one of the things I just want to comment on early on is um one of the things that I think is so critical in, in the regenerative movement. And for you, it's talking about like this proof of concept and you wanna share the practices that you're doing at, at your vineyard and on your farm to try to get others to adopt that. So it's not necessarily that you look at it as a competitive advantage, although it is, but you're not trying to keep that to yourself. You want to share that and get more people's producing food this way, which I think is just relatively unique in this capitalist environment that we live in instead of holding on to that competitive binge, you want to share it. Um And I just very much appreciate like how most of the brand we interview feel the same way. And I think it's really, really important.

Craig Camp - 00:06:33
Yeah, I, I think, you know, uh we, we first followed this, this path. Uh both for ethics but also for quality. I mean, uh we believe that this, this way of farming produces a superior uh uh agricultural product. You know, where there's a, there's a, there's a lot of energies in the world we work with, you know, the sun, the moon. Uh uh there's lots of energies in the ground. We don't even understand yet. But our job as a farmer is to take those energies and transform them into flavors. Uh So that's what you see with a great chef uh or great winemaker is, is taking, trying to take that expression of a place. And, and I think that is our competitive advantage, not just uh uh uh the way we farm, but the fact that this is a unique place and if we farm this way, it makes that expression even more individual and more personal.

Craig Camp - 00:07:16
So uh it, it, it makes it a more interesting uh wine or vegetables or uh what, you know, whatever we're we're selling at that point. Yeah. Beautiful.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:07:42
Yeah, Craig Craig came prepared because that little intro, I got like eight, I got eight follow up questions written down on my little piece of paper here, follow the format of the show. So he, he teed us up. Well, um Craig, I kind of want to do two origin stories, right? The origin story of the vineyard itself and the brand and then kind of how you got involved in your background and wine and how you came to work at, at. So maybe take us through both of those stories and then we'll get into all the agronomy and the commercialization and

Craig Camp - 00:08:08
all the fun stuff. OK. So uh Troon uh is named after Dick Troon who first planted vines here in 1972. Uh So he, he was one of the pioneers of Oregon viticulture. And uh so when we took over, I came here in 2016, we took over instead of changing

Kyle Krull - 00:08:26
real quick. When you say viticulture, what does that mean?

Craig Camp - 00:08:30
OK. Viticulture is farming grapevines. Got it. Farming grapevines. Yes. Yes. So

Kyle Krull - 00:08:37
agriculture, I don't drink any alcohol. So I literally know nothing. So thank you for, for educating me on that. Very simple. You can

Craig Camp - 00:08:43
come any time, you know, it's like looking to get a little dirty, good spot to drop by. Yeah, perfect. Yeah. So, so we kept the name in honor of uh of Dick because who knows if there would even be grapes planted or not? Um But you know, as, as a pioneer, we wanted to honor that history. And so we immediately began the, the transformation at that point, it was conventionally farmed and with all of the results that you normally get so extremely compact soils, a lot of uh uh plant diseases, uh things like that. And so I, I immediately shifted to biodynamics because I felt you need, you need a framework. Uh I think to attack a problem. And uh by working within this framework, it gave us a base to start from and then like everyone else, then you build it into an individual practice for your farm. So, and so that's the direction we went and we've had tremendous results.

Craig Camp - 00:09:26
I mean, I could see the results uh right away. And um my background is I've been doing this for 35 plus years now. Um I started as an importer distributor in Chicago in 79 and then sold that company and then went and worked in wineries and studied winemaking in Italy for some years. And then uh I was in the, at a winery called A and I was, then I was enticed to go down to Napa Valley and spent a decade uh down there. And, but when I was in, well, I'm at Valley and then me, I was buying some fruit down here and I was always uh uh really interested in the potential for varieties like Sara and in this region. So when the opportunity came to come back, um II I couldn't resist. And so I wanted to get back to Oregon.

Craig Camp - 00:10:25
Anyway, I kind of missed Oregon after a decade in, in Napa, different environment for

Anthony Corsaro - 00:10:40
the average, for the average wine person you mentioned 21 varieties. You're throwing some names of varieties out of that. But when you go to the store and you buy wine, it's not named after that variety of grape, right? It's a specific type of wine. So just talk about that conversion for us. So people can understand what, what that is.

Craig Camp - 00:10:56
Well, it's a little of both. OK. So um when we make a blend, we'll give it AAA name a a proprietary name for instance, um we're on a, on a area called the Bench. It's a geographic location where our vineyard is located. So excuse me, we call our, our, our blends be red white, uh cool but bench amber. And so those are blends, but you will also see that what you'll see Trin vineyard sara a things like that. So it depends on um uh the circumstance, you know, when you're making a natural wine like this, you have to follow the vineyard uh and the, and you, because we do there, I mean, there's no additives or anything we can do. We're not doing any of these uh uh additions in the winery that big commercial wineries do to make up for whatever uh They lack to make a consistent product. So, what we're trying to do is make a uh AAA wine or, or, or, or beets or, or, or apples that reflect the flavors of that year. Um uh So, so uh some years, they may be more blends.

Craig Camp - 00:11:49
Some years, there may be more individual wines, but we, we let, we follow what nature uh gives us and I think that's, that's kind of a key aspect of of this type of farming is to have that kind of connection to the, to the plants and understand what they're giving you. Um this, that year, I mean, what we're trying to do and everything we do is just to create natural systems, right? So we want a natural system in the soil. If you have a natural system in the soil, uh you'll have a healthier plant, the natural system of that plant will be healthier and then express and, and be more sensitive to the climate of that year and then be more expressive in, in, in the fruit or vegetables that you, that you pick?

Kyle Krull - 00:12:49
OK, you, you're very clearly well versed in the regenerative space from like a philosophical perspective, from a, you know, practices perspective. You've been doing wine for 35 years, which is literally a lifetime for me. And I'm curious, number one, what got you interested in wine in the first place? This is gonna be a three part question. What got you interested in wine in the first place? Two, what has kept you in wine for 35 years? What is so stimulating about this industry that keeps you going and motivated to be passionate about your work? And three, where did the intersection of one and regenerative first get on your radar? And why did it become a passion project of yours?

Craig Camp - 00:13:26
Well, I got, I got into wine because uh when I was in college, I spent a semester in, uh, uh Europe and I studied in, in Salzburg, Austria and, and started tasting this thing called wine, which I did, did not exist in my, uh, my youth. And, uh, then that's the, the, the summer after I took, I hitchhiked around Europe for the summer and spent a lot of time in France. You know, and, and would, would buy bottles of wine and, and, and those were the days of hippies, you know, you would, so you buy a bottle of wine and you go to the park by the Eiffel Tower and somebody would have some meat and you'd have wine bread and create a meal together. So, but, but then I came back to the United States and I went, you know, feeling incredibly sophisticated because I'd spent time in Europe. And uh uh I went to the store to buy a bot of wine and I realized I didn't know anything with the buy. And I, and I bought a book, there was a, the sign book of wine by Alexis Beso, which was kind of like the, the intro book at that time. And uh and uh I was, uh when I got out of college, I was a journalist for a while.

Craig Camp - 00:14:15
And so I, I, then I went down the rabbit hole, then I read everything and I ended up teaching classes at a community college and, and uh I dumped journalism and with a partner, Sam Lovett. We started a distributorship and importing in Chicago with no money. So I don't think you could do that anymore, but uh in those days you could and everything. So what was the other question again?

Kyle Krull - 00:14:51
Um Yes, that, that was a great overview of what, what got you into wine? Awesome story. Um Part two is what has kept you in wine, you know, so you got your feet wet, you know, for me to think about doing anything for 35 years is incredible. Um And then the third part is, you know, when did you be generative or biodynamic or, or get on your radar? And why did that become such a passion project? And how did you start applying it to the work you're doing now in the States?

Craig Camp - 00:15:13
Well, what's kept me in, into wine all these years is that it's, it's, it's a very deep subject, you know, it's involved very much in uh geography and history, uh uh uh and obviously agriculture and science and, and it's, it's, it's a unique product in the sense that it can express a place so clearly, you know, you can taste a Sara from France and one from here and one from California and they're each different, totally different expressions of the, of the same variety. And I find that endlessly fascinating. And II I think it's like anything else, once you dig deeper and, and become more experienced, it becomes even more complex and you start to look at all these options and, and, and I suppose fundamentally at the end is that connection to the soil? I, I grew up around uh around dairy farmers, my uncles and my grandfather and I was an indentured servant as a teenager on their farm. So, so um so that's why you Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Craig Camp - 00:16:01
So, so, you know, I just, I just felt that uh it, it's just so endlessly complex. It never, it never gets boring and it has a mixture of science and art I think is, is really, really uh compelling and, and then as far as the getting interested in regenerative, I think it's, it's like a lot of people um you know, you taste something and go wow, this is really different. It really tastes good and then you, you look into it and I said, oh, look at how they're farming and especially biodynamics, you know, to a lot of people that sounds like it's pretty crazy stuff, you know, to, you're, you're, you know, we're doing fermenting and cow horns and, you know, manure and cow horns and, you know, planting by the moon and things like that. But then, you know, you keep tasting in something and it goes that's really good and, and it turned around us biodynamic and, you know, after enough, uh you say, well, I think I should look into this and, and like most things when you, when you sort of delve into it, you find that it's more practical than it may seem on the outside, especially the way journalists will tend to report and things they like to kind of focus on the esoteric and things like that because it makes better copy and better photos. But so we're, we're, we look up on biodynamics as a, as a practical uh type of farming where, what we're doing is, is basically we're doing this uh uh complex probiotic program. So we are doing ferments of manure and, and, and other plants and then, and then inoculating our soils with food for, for the micro and, and, and, and everything. So again, it's, it's, it's, it, it makes a lot of sense.

Craig Camp - 00:17:34
And it's interesting because science now seems to be growing closer to a lot of these philosophies. Uh uh you know, one of, one of the things we do is uh there's a ground courts that we use that as a to aid photosynthesis that's uh sprayed on, on the vines, the very minute quantities. And now, now everybody is applying silica, you know, you can buy silica products for your garden sprayed on it because they realize it builds cell walls. So like so many things that the ideas that they had in the twenties, 19 twenties when the they came up with a lot of the, the biodynamic ideas, the, the reason they thought it worked may not have been correct, but the, but it did work and and it was, you know, because these things were mostly based on tradition, you know, agricultural tradition and they were going, going back. So, you know, and, and the whole regenerative process then look like anything else you delve deeply into it and it becomes ever more rewarding. Uh And, and both, both to you as, as a person in your work, but also in the quality of what you're, what you're making.

Craig Camp - 00:18:34
So it's, it's, it's, it's a satisfying experience all along. You know, you start off, you know, like everybody else, you start with organic, you know, and then you realize, or organic, all they're telling you to do is what you can't do, you know, and then I, you know, we got into biodynamics and to me that was much more proactive, that ability to, to push in, you know, and, and then the concept of the whole farm as an organism, the biodiversity and everything working together as, as a system and, and as you practice it, you see it work. I mean, you can see it actually in the, in, in the flavors you're getting in the, in the, in the chemistry, for instance, of the, of the grapes when they come in for harvest is, is, is more ideal. But uh when the Regenerative Organic Certification came along, it really appealed to me on, on several levels is, is one, I think it's, it, it can be more uh um accepted by uh a lot of uh regular farmers than biodynamics. Uh which is, it's, you know, the bigger the farm, the harder it is to do. And uh so I think, you know, regenerative organic is something that, that can connect with more farmers. Uh also the, their, their dedication to uh social fairness and the humans.

Craig Camp - 00:19:48
I mean, we, when we're talking about regenerative, you know, we're talking about all the time, the soil, the plants, the animals, well, the the humans are part of the whole farm too. So you have to have that, that, that element of social justice really appealed to me because as we all know, there's a lot of mistreatment of agricultural workers uh not just in the United States but, but other places. So, so a regenerative organics really been taking off and you know, biodynamics tends to be more focused more most people are, are no biodynamics from wine because we could put it in a bottle and ship it around as compared to radishes or something like that. So, um uh but the general organic I think is really taking off. So we've invested a lot of time and effort, you know, we were kind of the uh the beta testers. I think in a lot of these, you know, as they went through uh like the uh ee equitable Food uh initiative ef I who did our Social Fairness Certification, they never work with a, a farm as small as we are.

Craig Camp - 00:20:50
And you know, and, and then of course, you know, I have, there's also, I'm in Oregon so I have lots of laws to follow as, as far as worker safety, you know, there's, there's not only federal OSHA but Oregon, OSHA. And, and there's a lot, there's a lot of protections here for, for, for farm workers and minimum wages and things like that. So they didn't quite know what to do with us because a lot of their, they were working with really big agricultural operations, even even in out, you know, outside the United States and, and, and South America and so forth. So we helped them develop a AAA small farm certification that they call ergo that uh we were the first to, to achieve.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:21:44
Well, Craig, I want people to understand how like uh where, where you're at in terms of being Roc Gold and how there's only four farms in the whole world. Iii I can't remember off the top of my head, but I wanna say the last stat I saw was like, there's 100 and 18. I know it's plus triple digits farms that are certified. So to be in that less than, you know, +54 3% that category is, is just super impressive. So kudos to you there and one thing we like to do each episode is kind of try and get the brand to take us through some key differences between conventional of their product and their operation. And in your case, that'd be biodynamic Reger of organic. Uh maybe the best way for us to do that with y'all is to take us through what this farm looked like in 2016 when you showed up and the journey now to everything that you've implemented since, maybe that would be a good way to kind of illustrate what's, what's conventional wine look like and then what is, what is true and vineyard, you know, right now look like.

Craig Camp - 00:22:40
Well, if you, if you'd been here in 2016 and just came back, had, hadn't returned, you would not recognize, uh, the farm, uh uh except maybe some of the buildings are the same, but, uh, the farm itself is totally uh transformed. Uh I, I think the, the biggest difference, I mean, obviously there's a difference in look because we've replanted vines, we've put in gardens and hay fields and cider apple trees and all this diversity. But the biggest difference to me is, is the amount of life here. Now there, I mean, the, the, the, if you go outside today and, and the, the air is full of butterflies, it's everywhere, you know, and there, there's uh hawks and, and, and, and the, our owl boxes are all all full of owls and bats. And so it, it's just, it's just teeming with life and, and that I think is the biggest indicator of a healthy farm. And when, and when I came here it wasn't, I mean, it was, uh uh, you know, I didn't, the birds were landing here anymore. Uh, you know, the, these chemicals, they, they destroy the food chain. So, um, if you destroy the base of your food chain, um you lose the rest of the life there. So our goal then was to replant.

Craig Camp - 00:23:43
So, uh, if you like flowers, uh you'll like because there are flowers and pollinators everywhere. We, we've uh dedicated over 10% of our, our property to just pollinator habitat. And uh you know, so, but again, you know, there, there, there, there's an idealism to it, but there's a practicality to it is that, you know, having a pollinator habitat. Uh it, it, it helps bring in positive, you know, beneficial uh pests and we call them and insects are not pests. We like them here. But um but so you don't need the chemicals. So you're just trying to, to, to do that.

Craig Camp - 00:24:25
So you get the, you get the beauty and, and the life, but also then it goes back to that natural system that you're trying to create. And if you have that system running, it's uh you don't need all these other additives. And that, and that goes for the wine too. If we talk about the, the winemaking is um it's kind of an old cliche, you know, the wine is made in the vineyard, but in our case, it is because there's really no um uh there's so little we can do in the, in the cellar other than uh make sure everything's spotlessly clean and, and that we're monitoring everything because, uh so, you know, we're, we're, we're doing native yeast fermentation most commercial winery. So, what they would do is pick the grapes and uh uh whack it with a bunch of sulfur and kill everything in there and then, and then introduce a, a single uh uh cultivated yeast. Uh And then um often they would, then they would do there's all sorts of additives they can add to, you know, for acid, they can add sugar, they can add uh um uh you know, things for color.

Craig Camp - 00:25:33
I mean, it's just

Anthony Corsaro - 00:25:47
according to the last episode we had,

Craig Camp - 00:25:51
I'm not real familiar with them all. So, yeah, yeah. Uh So, you know, I mean, you know, for instance, on our wines, we are, we are ingredient labeled uh which you don't really see very often because we only have two ingredients. We have uh uh grapes and a little bit of Sulfurs added before about for stabilization. And that's, that's it. And in fact, um with the, with our bottling in this summer, there'll be a QR code on the back of all our wines that will lead you to a page for that wine that will give you all the nutritional information too. So the calories, sugar, everything. So our goal is to be totally transparent and uh um you know, I think that's the type of consumer that we're connecting with. I mean, we're a small winery, you know, we're, we're not uh trying to be in the mass market.

Craig Camp - 00:26:27
We're, we're a niche winery trying to connect with the niche market. And uh, and then, and that market is very demanding and, and, and they, they should be, and we try to, to, um um give them the information that they want. So just going back to the winemaking then, um you know, so the, the, the idea of a big commercial winery like that is they want to make the product the same every year. And, and that is not our goal. Our goal is to, that the wine should be different every year because that reflects the, the nature of, of uh you know, of, of the weather and the soils and all these things that we're doing. So you, if you let the natural system uh ripe in the fruit, you'll get a, a distinctive uh wine every year.

Craig Camp - 00:27:20
And that, that's our, that's our goal and that's why we don't want to use, you know, we don't use new oak barrels, we don't use uh you know, besides the additives, we're looking at everything. We want a neutral influence of our wine making. Uh Our winemaker, Nate Wall is um uh you know, he describes it as, uh you know, minimalist winemaking is just, you know, but again, so he, but he spends a lot of time in the vineyard. So it's, you know, we're, we're, the idea is if you, if you have healthy fruit, you don't need to add all that stuff, you have the, the, the, the, the, the chemistry is there to naturally produce, produce wine. So, um that the major difference is it's, I mean, it's just like any other product. You know, if you look at a AAA really wonderfully grown organic, uh uh green pepper and then go buy the, go to your local grocery and buy, you know, the, you know, and taste the two together.

Craig Camp - 00:28:12
They're not the same thing, you know, and, and, and that, and that's, and that's what we're doing too. It's agriculture and then expressing that agriculture in your final product,

Kyle Krull - 00:28:36
I think it's a really good point. And I think it's wine is uniquely positioned in the fact that it is a regenerative product in a package with a brand that allows for the expression of a specific place and time that unlike most other CPG brands, they don't have that kind of variability, right? If I'm buying crackers, I expect my cracker to taste the same, you know, year one, year, two, year three, it's not like there's a different variety of cracker that comes out like, oh, this is a 2017 vintage, you know, it's gonna have a little bit of these notes that are differently and the entire industry is sort of like it kills the opportunity for that to take place because of slotting in U PC codes. And if you change the L I, the nutrition facts and all like everything has to change. But wine has the ability to express itself differently. And I think it's really important that it, it can do that and it can, it can kind of lead the way from a branding perspective in telling this story and hopefully that can kind of cascade down to some of the categories in the future. Um So I just want to comment that I think one is really uniquely positioned to get people to understand what regenerative is, why it's important things like that. Um So in addition to me rambling, there's two things I wanna ask.

Kyle Krull - 00:29:33
Um Number one is you mentioned, the science is starting to back up that some of these practices are taking place. You've mentioned the chemistry of the grapes a couple of times. What have you seen from a scientific perspective that validates your, you know, thesis, you know, your experience that biodynamic and regenerative is the way forward. Um And how does that science compare with conventionally grown? You know, is there a specific chemical panel differences? I would love to learn more about that. And then part two, you mentioned the QR Code um and food service is a different industry than retail.

Kyle Krull - 00:30:15
But how are you going through the storytelling process of the brand to get those niche high expectation consumers to understand the unique proposition that June has, right? Like, what does that look like?

Craig Camp - 00:30:36
Well, the, the storytelling is, uh fortunately, uh uh thank you for having me on, we're talking to people like you who are uh communicating uh this message. You know, I think that uh the, the whole podcast uh industry is really making a difference and getting out these kind, uh this kind of information. Um you know, and, and as far as wine, I, I agree with you, I mean, we have a big advantage over other products and like you said, because we can, it's a transportable product that has a, uh you know, relatively long shelf life and it has a label and information that I can drive people back if you're, if you're selling fresh produce, that's, it's much harder to do. You know, if you're growing, uh you know, radishes and tomatoes and things here in Oregon is it's hard to sell them in New York, you know, and that's kind of right, self defeating and we can wait

Kyle Krull - 00:31:27
on the phone. Sorry to interrupt. But on the produce front, like sometimes you might just get a killer apple and you're like, wow, this apple is incredible and then the next apple isn't and you have no idea why it just is what it is. You know, there's no that traceability to your point. You can't, you can't trace it back. So sorry to interrupt. I just want to comment on

Craig Camp - 00:31:41
that. Right. Well, I think, you know, you know, a lot of, a lot of products have recipes. Ok. Uh, so like, like Triscuits. Ok. Triscuits, they got, they got three ingredients and they know how to make that. Every box of Triscuits is exactly the same because there's a recipe that you can replicate. But we, we can't do that because we're getting a slightly different chemistry each year. So, um, you know, we can't write a recipe and then replicate it. That's, that's industrial winemaking. They, they, they, they create a recipe and then force the product into that category with additives. So it's, it's, it's a totally different, different concept.

Craig Camp - 00:32:09
So we're just trying to um you know, be, be honest and also, but, you know, it's also for ourselves, this is, you know, we, we do it because this is our passion. We want, we want to express wine like that. That's the kind of wine we like to drink. It's the kind of produce I like to eat, you know, so it, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's everything's kind of circular, you know, it has to, has to come from within uh uh to do it,

Kyle Krull - 00:32:44
right? And then the science piece, you mentioned

Craig Camp - 00:32:46
some of the OK. So, uh uh you know, it, it, there's a lot of science in winemaking. Everybody, you know, everybody likes to put up the artistic side of it, but there's a lot of science and so you know, like when the, the grapes come in every year, we do complete, you know, uh uh uh profiles through a, a professional laboratory. So we know, we know every part of, of, you know, how much potassium there is, how much deter acid, uh how much sugar, we know that exactly every year. And, and, and so we keep obviously a, you know, records of all that and there's uh um the, the uh uh indicator called Yan Yan, which is the amount of nitrogen that's available uh uh uh in, in, in the must uh for many. And the yeast need that nitrogen to be able to, to do their work. So you need a certain level of nitrogen available to them. So, uh what the first year I was here, our Yan ranges were in the seventies, which is really low, especially for, in our case, a native ferment. Um So we're not using these uh hyper aggressive uh industrial yeast. We're just relying on what's there.

Craig Camp - 00:33:37
And, and now, uh we've more than tripled that level just in the, from the farming alone. So, not only are we not low, we're in a, in an ideal uh uh uh you know, like the ideal place to and, you know, people that people come that stop here will have interns come and they, they haven't done native fermentation and they're always uh amazed, you know, hey, it does it by itself, you know, just put, put it in their tank, it'll sit for a while and it, and it starts fermenting. So, um also I think this is, this is another expression of, of place is native yeast. So I, as I mentioned in industrial wine, they're killing all the yeast and then adding one yeast that's extremely efficient. We're using uh you know, dozens of and you know, maybe hundreds, some years of, of different types of yeast are involved in the, in the ferment. So each of those uh yeast is adding some nuance, you know, yeast make alcohol and they do that uh as a way to out compete the other microorganisms. So they make alcohol to kind of kill off the people, the other, I mean, the other microbes.

Craig Camp - 00:34:48
So they won't eat their, their sugar, but it's not a very long term, good, long term plan for their life because eventually they kill themselves. But um, so, you know, you the, the a lot of these native yeast will only go up to five or 6% alcohol and then the day off and then the the the kind of the classic yeast sacro takes over and does and, but that, but that little period in the beginning where all of these yeast are work at, at aromatics and textures and flavors that are unique to that year because every year that mixture is going to be slightly different. So, um you

Kyle Krull - 00:35:38
said these are, these are native yeast, so they're naturally occurring on the fruit themselves as they're growing on the property. Yep,

Craig Camp - 00:35:44
they, they're just here. So again. So, and you know, and the yeast mixture of the vineyard down the road is probably slightly different than ours. So, you know, and also I think our, our farming, you know, will tend to promote uh um uh fermentation, you know, yeast development. Also as part of our composting um program, we take all the, the, the remains, all the press, you know, the the grape skins and the stems and everything go into our compost pile. So those are all full of, of yeast that were successful uh that year. And so that that's going back in and then being spread throughout the vineyard. So that we're, we're repopulating with the most successful yeast.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:36:28
The the theme that's coming up to me is like natural productivity versus synthetic productivity across the growing across the processing. And Craig one question that's coming to my mind as you talk through this and you, you made a comment earlier, kind of some of these things are hard to do for large scale commercial vineyards and wineries, right? What it is not hard to do what, what could like, you know, we understand, maybe not everyone can be true, right? But if we, if we really want to have more regenerative acreage or just have like better care of our land, like what, what do you think is low hanging fruit and then maybe what do you think are some things that are gonna be really hard for, like, a large scale vineyard or winery to do? I'm just curious.

Kyle Krull - 00:37:06
Well,

Craig Camp - 00:37:10
we'll take us the, uh, I think the hardest thing for a bigger operation is, uh, uh, controlling, controlling weeds. Ok. Uh, so we're, we're no till, um, so we're, we're not, we're not, uh, you know, dissing everything up every year. Um, but there's 222 types of weeds in your vineyard. Uh There's the alley, you know, in between the vines and then there's the under vine and the under vine is the challenging one because obviously you don't want weeds growing up into your fruit zone. Hm. And that tends to be where you irrigate, you know, you're doing drip irrigation. Uh So you're the weeds get to drink uh the water along with the vine. So you're encouraging that. So, so obviously, it's much easier to, to spray something to kill it all than it is than to go back and do a um you know, manual uh tractor work to, to remove it. I mean, there, there are ways to do it. There's under vine tillage.

Craig Camp - 00:37:57
There's a uh we use a product like Clemens weed knife when we're developing uh that, that, that literally just cuts, cuts a swath under the vine, you trip on it. So it, it, it uh you know, hits the vine, bounces up, bounces back and then, so, so that, that's probably the biggest thing. So the key to do it on a large scale is really moving to no till um uh for, for um and for a lot of people that's hard to accept, they're kind of used to the, the, the um the work of cultivation and, and so if you can convert to no till then, so now all we have to do is mow a couple of times a year. So we're not, um, um, we don't have to go through and, and do that under vine work. We just mow. Also, you know, people probably think it looks awful.

Craig Camp - 00:38:55
We think it looks beautiful but the, there's a lot, it, it gets kind of long sometimes, you know, we're not trying to make it look like a golf course. And, uh, um, and so it gets pretty shaggy out there. But again, that's pollinator habitat and uh part of the expression. So, you know, the, the, the, the advantage I, I, it, it's expensive upfront because it requires some different equipment and things like that. But once you get the system rolling, it's actually cheaper because you're, you know, you know, these chemicals that these ad companies sell are very expensive. And, uh, um, and if you're having to do that multiple times a year, uh it's, and, and then, you know, you're, you're, you're basically killing all the life in your soil when you're using them.

Craig Camp - 00:39:40
So, I, I think that, that, that if if we can convince people to move to no till, and you see this all over, I mean, this is not just in the wine industry. I mean, there's no, there's a big, no till movement out in the midwest and some very large agricultural operations. And uh, um, and I think they're, they're leading the way. I mean, that's, they're really showing that not only does it work, it works better and uh is actually cheaper to do in the long run. And now that, you know, the, the there's water issues, you, you know, you, you know, with rain you either got not enough or too much anymore. So, uh, if you have in a no till system you can handle either too much or too little.

Craig Camp - 00:40:19
And that, I think that's, that's, people are going to have to move in this direction, but it's impressive. I mean, you, you see some of these farms out in Iowa and, and, and Kansas and stuff they're doing no till they're doing thousands of acres. So it's, uh, it's, it's really, really impressive and, uh, there's a, there's a, uh, a website no till dot com, I think. And they, they have a, uh, a good newsletter and things like that, but it's, it's, uh, it's, it's impressive but that, to me is the key to getting it on a large scale. We have to have to get out of this paradigm of, of, of constant cultivation. Um, um, for multiple reasons, you know. So uh once we can convert people to noel, there's an opportunity to do it on a very large scale.

Craig Camp - 00:41:07
Yeah,

Kyle Krull - 00:41:18
I'm curious from a storytelling perspective, how much of the story you're telling your consumers is focused on flavor versus the environmental benefits of regenerative. And how do you position like those different value propositions as you tell that story?

Craig Camp - 00:41:37
Well, I think in our case, I think it's the same story um that we're telling at the same time because, because our, our commitment to the environment also improves our product. Uh So I think it's, it become if you're doing it right, it becomes the same story and, and, and, and that's the, that's the key. I mean, you know, I think the secret to good marketing, especially in this age of social media and everything is to actually have a story to tell. A lot of people don't, don't have a real story and if you have a real story and, and, and real energy and passion behind it, uh it's the, there, there's a market for, you know, there's people that want to listen to that story and uh but if you're just making something, you know, I, I, you know, I tasted this and I want, I want to make something that tastes like that too and I'm gonna keep repeating that. That's what's, there's nothing really compelling about it if you're just industrially producing something. So that's it. I mean, I don't, I don't know if we separate them in our minds anymore.

Craig Camp - 00:42:31
Um, I think the, the farming and the environmental impact and, and, and, and what we grow and make is all the same story. They're all, they're all just interrelated and they, they can't, they can't exist individually. Um, you know, my first interest in, in getting into, into biodynamics was wine quality. It wasn't, I, I mean, I was always an environmentalist. I believed all that. And uh I think, but, but the reason it got me interested in it was I think I can make better wine if I do this and then, and then it all rolls together and becomes uh as mature as you, as you mature as, as a farmer in the system.

Craig Camp - 00:43:06
Uh uh uh uh you know, you, you turn it into, then you transform it into your own expression of. So there's these, you know, there's the basic rules of biodynamics, basic regen, but each farm is its own entity and you have to then and say, well, I need more of that and less of this and, and for, for my farm and my situation for what I'm growing.

Kyle Krull - 00:43:45
Yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense. And I think, you know, as a consumer, my journey into regenerative was I think the same thing really. It was about how do I find, I guess flavor and health are different. I was like, how do I find the healthiest products and that led me towards regenerative and then it was like, oh, this is also beneficial for the earth, right? And, but I, I

Craig Camp - 00:44:02
don't think flavor and health is different. I mean, one thing that they found out is that is that if you look at, at the nutritional levels and, and regenerative grown produce, it's, it's better for you, you know, they're actually measurably healthier for you to eat. besides. Not exactly,

Kyle Krull - 00:44:21
that's exactly where I was going. And I think that's what's so compelling about regenerative is it's, it's better flavor wise, it's better nutrition wise, it's better for the environment. It's a, it's a the trifecta, right? And there's so much data coming out. I, I talked about this book before on the podcast. It's called the Dorito Effect and it talks about all these secondary compounds and plants and there's this amazing study that was going on in Europe. And it's these guys who are studying cheeses and they're trying to figure out what are the chemical compounds and cheese that make it so flavorful. And then there are people researching cheese looking for the most nutrient intense cheese, but that led them to the same compounds. So to your point, like creating a more nutrient dense product also creates a more flavorful product and vice versa. So it's this virtuous system where when, when we prioritize the right things over efficiency, uh we end up doing better for ourselves and for the planet and for general pleasure of enjoying food.

Craig Camp - 00:45:16
Yeah. I mean, if you think of how agriculture developed, you know, thousands and thousands of years ago, people were looking for things that tasted good and, and, and made them healthy, you know, and, and, and so that these plants were selected, you know, from wild plants and then, and then brought in and, and, and cultivated for those reasons, what's, what's, what's happened, you know, what we've done to food is in the last 100 years is, is really amazing because it didn't exist. You know, I think also Michael Poland says, don't eat anything. Your grandparents wouldn't, wouldn't recognize as food. So, so I think that that's true is, is, is that you look at a lot of these types of products that are causing all these problems. Now, they're only maybe decades old uh glycoside and things like this. This has not been around that long and it, and it's been um but the damage has been incredible because of the amount of money to be made and um and because they can patent it, I mean, this, this is what happens now, you know, like with, with a lot of the natural uh applications we use in on the farm.

Craig Camp - 00:46:04
There's like now commercial brands coming up that are similar to like, like silica, for instance, you know, and you know, these companies, they don't want, they, they don't, they don't want to sell something they can't patent. So, um, you know, like the, the cowhorn manure that we use that we ferment, they can't patent that so that they're not like that. But, you know, that's, they've really overtaken farming, you know, the, the whole roundup situation where they using genetically modified, uh, uh, wheat to, to use with it and then, and, you know, they can, they can't even make, make their own seeds. You know, you know, we make our here, we make our from our garden. You know, we make our own seeds, we collect our own seeds every year and they took that away from farmers because they patented the seed. And uh we have, you know, I think my goal is always to not if I, if I can avoid using a brand name product on the farm, I will do that.

Kyle Krull - 00:47:20
Love that. This is a total sidebar and we're going way off topic and Anthony's gonna hate me. But uh fertility is an interesting issue humans are

Anthony Corsaro - 00:47:28
experiencing,

Kyle Krull - 00:47:29
I'm flowing man, which is weird because I'm sick. Um But fertility is an interesting issue and, you know, humans as a species, especially in North American and Western diet are experiencing unprecedented fertility issues, disasters, dropping people having a harder time having kids and the food we're consuming no longer has the ability to reproduce on its own. Whether or not there's a scientific link there, I'm not sure. But to me that's a very interesting thing like the, the, this chicken we consume like it's, it can't produce its own offspring. You know, it's, it's crazy. So I'm done going down the rabbit hole ac U take over, get us back on track. Uh Sorry for, for being in a uniquely uh distracted mood today.

Craig Camp - 00:48:10
But that's true. Again, you know, I keep using the phrase natural system. That's not a natural system. You know, that you've got a plant that can't reproduce itself. That's, that's not how it works. Right?

Anthony Corsaro - 00:48:24
When Greg, you mentioned earlier, there's no mission without margin. I love that. I love that quote. Right? And I wanna do, I wanna do two things for the person that doesn't have the back and B to B experience in food that the three of us have. I want them to understand the three tier system, right? And how alcoholic beverage products go to market and basically to frame that for the people that regularly listen to the show, we talk about grocery items that mainly go through a distributor like a UN F I or to get into a sprouts or a whole foods, but that is not legally required of them. They can sell directly to whoever they want with a regular food product. In the adult beverage industry, you have to sell it through a distributor, that's a third party that then resells the product. So I, I want you to just give a brief education on that Craig and then I want you to talk about, to me, wines have an opportunity to be at the vanguard of the regenerative transition because they have a higher percentage of non commodity consumers, right? They have a higher percentage of consumers that give a shit about a lot of these things.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:49:19
So I want you just to do a basic overview of the three tier system and kind of riff on wine's ability to be a leader in the regen space,

Craig Camp - 00:49:31
the, the three tier system, everybody's favorite topic. Uh So, so uh after prohibition, you know, the, the federal government said, OK, each state you make up your own rules. And so uh selling, selling wine in the United States is selling like to 50 different countries. You know, everybody's got their own rules, their own taxes and, and, and, and so forth and, you know, a lot of wine wineries complain about the three tier system. Uh for us, I think it's really important, you know, because we connect with the distributor then who uh has a sales person who's trained that then can go out into the market and knows the type of accounts that would be interested in our and, and has the ability to tell our story. And so I think that's, that's a really valuable relationship. But of course, we don't, you know, the, the, we're, we're working with uh distributors of like mine, you know, they, they specialize in the kind of wines that we make So, um, the, the, the, the market tends to be controlled now by, by AAA handful of gigantic distribution companies that are, you know, have, uh, uh, you know, individual, you know, distributors all over the country and to get into that is, is a whole different world. I, I describe it, you know, it's like there's the, uh, uh, beverage alcohol market and the wine market and, you know, there's a lot, you know, there's a lot of wine that's sold like it's, you know, it's just uh you know, make more of it. Sure, you know, and, and throw a funny label on it and put it out and that's a different kind of sales, but I don't actually work in that environment.

Craig Camp - 00:51:03
Um uh they, they, they certainly, they're not interested in a small allocated winery from Southern or they want stuff that can move as they so delicately phrase it, move boxes of. So we're not in the moving boxes, uh business, we're in the connecting with people that care about what they consume business. So, you know, that's, that's that I think is the uh so we, we, we are, are look at our distributors as partners. So, and, you know, there's, I have, it's me and I have a national sales manager and it's a big country. So there can only be so many places at a time and it's expensive and, and to travel. So, um having that partnership is the key.

Craig Camp - 00:51:39
So we're, we're, we're really close to our uh distribution companies. And so what was the last question?

Anthony Corsaro - 00:52:00
Yeah. How like, how can wine be a leader in terms of driving regenerative consumption because there's less commodity consumers in that category?

Craig Camp - 00:52:10
It, it's true. I mean, the kind of people that are interested in, in, you know, they spend extra money for organic food at the grocery store are, are the same customers that are, are, are buying our, our wines. And the fact that there are, are, are you have to have enough affluent people, not necessarily rich, but people that can afford to spend a few extra dollars uh on the, the the products. Otherwise you can't, people can't farm them. I mean, look at the success now of farmers' markets across the country, you know, 20 years ago, it was rare to find a farmers' market. Now it's rare to find a town that doesn't have a farmers' market and the farm. So that lets all these, these, these small farmers, you know, these market garden farmers uh um uh exist that they can uh you know, actually make a business out of it by selling direct and, and, and that's change, change the food scene totally in the, in the, in the in the country. I mean, we have restaurants down here that are buying our vegetables from us because they want biodynamic vegetables that are grown locally.

Craig Camp - 00:53:01
So, so the fact that, that, that, that wine works in that area, uh that type of consumer and that, that it can be transported and then it, it can, can have contain a lot of information and storytelling and, and, and, you know, tell you the truth, you know, you know, wines like ours where they're usually consumed or at a table with, with food. So it's reasonable to assume that they're buying biodynamic wine, they're probably buying organic produce and organic meat and they're

Anthony Corsaro - 00:53:40
sharing it.

Craig Camp - 00:53:45
So that's, is that ultimately, you know, the most powerful marketing is word of mouth. And uh uh that's so just as you described, I mean, uh you know, having you have friends over for dinner and you have this wine and this food and you say, where did you get that? You know, and this is really good, different way and they're into it and they tell the story and another person is converted and another person is converted and, and that's been happening now fortunately for decades and it's, it's, you know, where, I mean, even the most commercial grow store has organic produce now. Yeah. You know, I mean, it's, it's really everywhere. Uh now the trick is, is to make sure it's high quality organic produce. I think that the, that's where the, that's where USDA organic falls down.

Craig Camp - 00:54:17
You know, is that, you know, there's the, the, the, the, the salad and the plastic uh container that's in every food opera organic, you know, sell, that's in every store in the United States, you know, from the gas stations to the, to the big grocery stores. And obviously that's not a very sustainable type of farming. But uh at least it helps get people aware of. They, they're taking that step, they're paying a little bit extra or maybe a dollar or more to get organic and it just builds, builds consciousness. So I feel it's all interrelated with us. I mean, the people that are spending that money are our customers, the people that like our wine and, and understand why it's different are also then going to the farmers' market. It's, it's a very uh uh um interrelated uh community.

Kyle Krull - 00:55:14
Yeah, totally, you know, Craig, I'm curious like what does the future hold for Troon? Um Are you looking to, I, I think you mentioned 21 varietals right now, a variety of different blends that you all make is the plan to continue to expand that portfolio. Is it to double down on what you're doing now and look to grow the niche market to be a leader in education. Are you looking to grow distribution in more states? Like what are the goals for Troon because it feels like a relatively, you know, 50 acre niche? I want, I want to understand how you see the next 35, 10 years playing now in the best case scenario.

Craig Camp - 00:55:47
Well, and not because we had to replant a lot of the vines because of various diseases that were here when we came. So, they're not all in production yet. You know, it takes three years before you get your first crop off of a grape vine and really 5 to 7 before you're in, in a regular, regular production. So, uh we've completed that process now and we'll be slowly growing our production. Uh So, and then, um the apples are even worse. It takes about five years to get apples. So, but eventually we'll get up to probably combining the cider and the, and the wine about uh say 13, 14,000 cases, uh which sounds like a lot. But in the scope of things is very small, you know, 330 million Americans, I think I can, should be able to look and find people to, to buy my, my, my wine.

Craig Camp - 00:56:25
And so, II, I think it's a, it, we're at the point now where we, we're so we have all these new vines and we need to learn from them. So the direction we go will be based on where they take us. Not necessarily like we've got this blend again, I want X number of cases of rose, I want X number of cases of red. We, we really have to now see what will make the best wine and, and, and let them decide the direction that we're going to go. So, and I, and I honestly believe if we do that, we won't have any trouble finding a market. And, uh, um, you know, I, I think quality does, uh, sell the, the fundamentally if you have, uh, if, if you're distinct and you have very high quality, you'll find your market.

Kyle Krull - 00:57:24
I think you're spot on, especially with wine. And I love that phrase, I think, and I both had the same sort of head nod when you said, uh, we'll learn from the vine and from a regenerative perspective, we've had a few different brands on who talk about innovation. And it really is about like, what does the land need versus I want to break into this category or varietal. So I'm gonna grow this here whether or not it's the right thing for the land or for the vine,

Craig Camp - 00:57:47
right? I mean, this is a big problem. This is a big problem. You know, if you want to grow regenerative, you need to put a plant in an area that wants to grow. If you force a plant into somewhere that's not ideal for it, you're gonna have to throw a lot of junk at it to make it, make it go. So that's, I mean, this is why the, the like the varieties we picked were based on, you know, we, we came in and we did soil studies, you know, we had uh 75 ft deep soil pits with a couple of phd s in them for a week. We analyzed the soils. Uh you know, we we, of course, climate data and, and then our own own knowledge to select the varieties that, that were for here. Not because we wanted to grow cabernet sauvignon or pino noir, which are much bigger, you know, popular areas, but they're not ideal for here. So we, we did not go that direction and, and, and I think that's, that's a better long term choice as a business too.

Craig Camp - 00:58:29
So, the combination of things is, is, is really important.

Kyle Krull - 00:58:49
Mhm. Totally agree.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:58:51
The, the thought and the intentionality is just so apparent and so clear. So just kudos to, to your, you and the whole team, Craig for that and just, you know, there's absolutely a vision and alignment behind it and we need, we need a lot more of that. Um

Craig Camp - 00:59:05
You know, it's interesting, you use the word intentionality because intentionality is uh the a, a fundamental tenet of biodynamics is that, that everything you do, you should do with intention, you know, don't just let it go by you or don't pay attention to things, be intentional about, about everything you do. And uh if you're, if you have that intentionality, even in the small things, you're, you're going to make a better product.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:59:31
Mhm. Well, that, that's a good segue into our final question. Uh which is, how do we get Regen brands to have 50% market share by 2050?

Craig Camp - 00:59:42
Well, uh you know, it's an interesting question, the, um the market, you can see it developing. I mean, there's the regen the Regenerative Organic Alliance here, there's a regenerative uh group in Europe now. Uh I think there's a deeper understanding that uh we have to go beyond organics and even beyond biodynamics uh to this uh more complete system. And I think the regenerative organic concept is a more complete system. So it makes it more uh accessible for farmers. And I think that's the key is that as we convince more farmers that, that they can make money and, and, and, and actually make better product that it will generate this, this is what's gonna take over market share is fundamentally convincing, convincing. Uh I mentioned Triscuits before, if you can convince Triscuits that they're going to make more money if they use reg regenerative uh grain in their, in their crackers, that is inspirational to them. And I think that is, that's the next step is, is we have to, it's converting the producers and the farmers first because the I think the consumers are there, the consumers want it.

Craig Camp - 01:00:50
If you give them the option, they're going to take that product that they perceive to be more healthy. They may not know why but they, they, they say, oh, it's regenerative organic, that's got to be better for me, right? They may not know why it is. Uh um but they, they have that knowledge. So if we can, it's, it's, it's changing the production chain to, to to that. I think that, but it, it's happening, you know, it's, it's surprising, uh, how aware people are, the consumers are very aware if you go into a market now, they're very aware of, of this and is, if the farmers, you know, a lot of farmers don't like change, they've been doing that way for, for decades as maybe their, their father did it that way too now.

Craig Camp - 01:01:24
You know, and they've got, you know, they've got hundreds and hundreds of thousands of dollars invested in tractors and equipment and things like that. So making that change, it's a very big, big decision for them and, and not so easy. So I think that's our goal is, is showing people um uh how they can make that change and, and still stay in business that and that it is actually a better long term uh uh business choice that, that you'll, you'll be more sustainable as a business if you farm truly sustainably.

Kyle Krull - 01:02:18
I think you're right. I think, you know, II I can't imagine any consumer saying, hey, choose this option. It's more flavorful. It's better for you. It's better for the planet like who would say no to that? Um And to your point, like the businesses are gonna have to get there, the supply chain is gonna need to catch up. But we've asked this question to a lot of people. I don't think anybody's answered like we need to prove out that to the Triscuits of the world, you're gonna end up being more profitable by implementing these practices. So that's the first time we've heard that answer and I think it's a really interesting one. and I, and I think you're right, you know, if we can prove that, that it will be more profitable, of course, big, big food is gonna jump on board. So it's a really interesting, uh, perspective.

Craig Camp - 01:02:58
Right. I mean, you know, they're businesses, they have a bottom line uh to achieve. And uh uh but you know, I guess, I guess the market also pulls through. I think this is where chefs of are real leaders. Uh right now uh in, in, because now the whole, I mean, the whole thing, you know, farm to table movement and restaurants I, I think is having a big impact on uh uh consumers and that whole concept because, you know, a lot of chefs are good marketers, they get there and get out there and they tell their story and uh the, the press loves to go and take pictures of the food and stuff. So it's, it's, it's, it's a, a very effective way to communicate that out. So the chefs I think are, are really helping us lead, lead this category.

Anthony Corsaro - 01:03:40
Mhm. For sure, for sure. And the product, the product speaks for itself, right? Uh I have not had any of Russ Wines but I've sent them to someone as a gift and I got a text. I got an unprompted text. Best wine we've ever had from the couple of us. Thank

Craig Camp - 01:03:55
you. So we're, we're really proud of, proud of it. Yeah, we, we have two wines. We call uh uh uh Dr red and Druids white. And there was the, the name came, the owner, the original owner Dick had given two wines that name. And uh so we kept the, he called him Dr Fluid. We just call him dr its red and white, but it, it, it, it, we kept the name both to honor him. But uh um you know, the druids, they believe that there's spirituality in all things and all plants and things like that. And it was, it's a very biodynamic uh uh concept. So we kept the name, but the, the goal of those two wines is to offer great value, you know, that, that these are, we want to keep the price down and we want to keep them very accessible and, and forward. And so each year it, it's a new blend that we, we create based on, on, on the vintage to give that kind of style of wine. So that, that we, we want to maintain that contact and, and make sure that people can afford the wines.

Kyle Krull - 01:04:53
On that note. I want to make sure that anybody listening who's interested in trying tru uh the website is just www dot true vineyards dot com. Is that correct?

Craig Camp - 01:05:03
Not vineyards? It's true. No, we just, it's just the one.

Kyle Krull - 01:05:11
Right, right. Like that. Awesome. Well, Craig, thank you so much for the conversation today, you know, uh as I anticipated knowing nothing about wine, I was still very stimulated Anthony. Thanks for keeping us relatively on track. Um I really appreciate your time, man and everything that you're doing.

Craig Camp - 01:05:26
Yeah, thank, thank you so much. I really appreciate the uh the time and what you're doing, You know, that's really important that the way you guys are communicating, this does make a difference.

Anthony Corsaro - 01:05:37
Thank you. Appreciate it, man. For show notes, episode transcripts, and more information on our guests and what we discuss on the show, check out our website regen-brands.com, that is regen-brands.com. You can also find our Regen recaps on the website Regen recaps, take less than five minutes to read and cover all the key points of the full hour long conversations. You can check out our youtube channel ReGen Brands Podcast for all of our episodes with both video and audio. The best way to support our work is to give us a five star rating on your favorite podcast platform. Subscribe to future episodes and share the show with your friends. Thanks for tuning in to The ReGen Brands Podcast brought to you by the Regen Coalition and Outlaw ventures. We hope you learned something new in this episode and it empowers you to use your voice, your time and your dollars to help us build a better and more regenerative food system. Love you guys.