#49 - Rachael Petach @ Current Cassis

Episode Recap:

ReGen Brands Recap #49 - Regenerative Blackcurrant Adult Beverages - (RECAP LINK)

Episode Transcript:

Disclaimer: This transcript was generated with AI and is not 100% accurate.

Kyle Krull - 00:00:15
Welcome to the ReGen Brands Podcast. This is a place for consumers, operators and investors to learn about the consumer brands, supporting regenerative agriculture and how they're changing the world. This is your host, Kyle, joined by my co-host, AC, who's going to take us into the episode.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:00:34
On this episode, we have Rachael Petach, who is the Founder and CEO at C. Cassis. C. Cassis, also known as Current Cassis, is supporting Regenerative Agriculture with its growing lineup of products made from blackcurrants grown in Northeast Regenerative Agroforestry Systems. Right now, the product lineup includes two alcoholic beverages, a bottled liqueur and a ready-to-drink Sparkling blackcurrant cocktail. In this episode, we learn about how Rachael started the brand in her Brooklyn apartment, why blackcurrants were federally illegal for decades and what brought them back and how C. Cassic is planning to use a combination of CPG hospitality and agritourism to get blackcurrant products into the mainstream. Rachael is a bad ass female founder who I really truly admire the stories of her brand and of the American blackcurrant are ones of creativity, resiliency and most importantly, hope we're excited to share this one with you all. Let's go. What's up everybody? Welcome back to another episode of the ReGen Brands Podcast. Very excited to record on a Saturday today with my friend Rachael from so welcome Rachael.

Rachael Petach - 00:01:47
Thank you so much. I'm so excited to be here. Yeah. Well, we're

Anthony Corsaro - 00:01:51
excited to have you. Um I'm still flying solo as Kyle is out getting married in El Loping. So we send our big congratulations to him and Heather. Um but Rachael for those who are unfamiliar with the brand, just give us a brief overview of what y'all do and what you make

Rachael Petach - 00:02:08
sure. So we are at the core of blackcurrant project. We are obsessed with blackcurrants, Fresh Flavor, Fresh, blackcurrants. What their health benefits are. Um We make a blackcurrant liquor that's a little less sweet, little more ver it's only sweetened with honey. It's made with All Hudson Valley Grown blackcurrants. So something of a new school take on creme de kisses um and lots of cocktail capabilities, really fun things you can do with it. And then we also from that make a canned RT D that is using the liquor as the base dropped down to 5.4 with the stilled spring water super well carbonated. It's like light, easy, refreshing, gluten free beer alternative. Um So we're just, we're, we're messing around in the beverage space, but we're, we're really into black herds.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:02:55
Yeah. Love it. And if, if y'all can't tell why I'm excited to have Rachael on this podcast after how dialed in that answer was then, then, now, you know, um, and Rachael, I think you're, you're a couple first for us, right? You're our first kind of agri forestry based brand and our first um, alcoholic beverage brand. So we're really excited to kind of talk about those two topics and, you know, maybe, maybe I should have researched this stat beforehand. But like, I'm curious, kind of what the gen pop awareness level of for blackcurrants or consumption is, right?

Rachael Petach - 00:03:26
Like next to nothing. Yeah,

Anthony Corsaro - 00:03:30
you're, you're gonna be able to educate our, our listeners on why some of that is in the historical kind of framing of why that occurred. But, you know, I love the work that so many people are doing in the regen ag space on the agroforestry side because it's really an amazing way to kind of re-perennialize our agriculture systems and integrate trees in, in a really the proper way rather than just this kind of general, let's go plant trees. Um And we have to find a way to commercialize those crops, right? And um educate consumers on the amazing nutritional and other kind of benefits of those things. So really excited for that. Um But you know, take us back like how, how did this whole thing get started? And how did you become blackcurrant Obsessed?

Rachael Petach - 00:04:16
So I was pregnant, which I acknowledge is a weird time to start a booze company but I was messing around with low A BV and no A BV. Things that were akin to what I generally enjoyed drinking. So things that were a little more vegetable, yeasty, less sweet. Um Not finding a lot of options and it was sort of at the front end of the huge uh N A boom. So now there are a lot more people in that space who are making really interesting things, but there just weren't that many. And so I, you know, I had worked in hospitality for most of my life. Um I was at that time, still working as the director of operations and cultural programming at Wife Hotel. And so I was having a lot of meetings where typically you'd have wine or, you know, you'd, you'd connect with someone over a, a beverage. And I was having, you know, sweet mock tails or drinking a lot of just seltzer and lime.

Rachael Petach - 00:04:59
And I found myself, you know, having worked in kitchens for a long time and have that sort of general impulse to make things that satisfy what you're looking for. I started just trying things out on my own. Um And so I'm like in this diy laboratory in my third floor walk up apartment in Brooklyn and remembering the flavor of fresh flat currents from uh when I was farming in France and, and kind of fell down a rabbit hole. I was like what's up with blackcurrants in the US? Why are there no blackcurrant things? They're huge in eastern and western Europe. Like, what's the deal and fell into their weird back story?

Rachael Petach - 00:05:44
Do you want me to talk about the, the, like, blight and the legality stuff now? Yeah.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:06:01
Yeah. Well, I, I wanna just add 11, like, feedback or thought to the whole non out space which is, I've gone large parts of my adult life. Um, sober, right? And what I have found is like, like you said, I'd rather just drink soda water and lime versus most of the N A beverages. Um, because one, it's cheaper, right? So from a cost savings perspective and two, like what I see from that landscape is a lot of things that they're just taking the alcohol and like keeping the beverage, the shitty experience that it is right? Whether it's beer or like, it still tastes bad, it still tastes like tequila, but you're not getting drunk. Like, to me that's like, what, why,

Rachael Petach - 00:06:40
what are we doing here? Right. So

Anthony Corsaro - 00:06:44
what I like about what you're doing is you're basically creating an N A like functional beverage, right? That delivers something that's worth paying for that. That is some sort of enjoyment, whether it's a flavor profile or some sort of health and wellness outcome instead of just let's keep the same shitty uh formula or whatever and just remove the alcohol like that to me is not a long term winning strategy. Yeah,

Rachael Petach - 00:07:04
I mean, I guess I, I'm totally with you and to elaborate on that, you know, we don't make an N A yet, but we do, you know, rather than kind of reengineering something that already exists to tailor to the needs. It was approaching it from a different perspective and creating something from this source material that was totally underutilized, underrepresented and is like phenomenal. It's such a cool flavor. They're like needy almost and like, really savory and have this big complex acidity. And so it has all these elements that are really interesting and like, not, well, sort of implemented in the beverage space in the States and even in, in some of the places where they are really huge, they're often covered with so much sugar, I think because people are sort of shying away from these qualities that I find really compelling about the fruit. And they're like, well, that might be a little weird but they can be kind of funky and musty and, and maybe, you know, the, the idea is that like the general population won't be into that. And I was like, no, let's lean in baby.

Rachael Petach - 00:07:59
Like that's, that's what's cool about them. Um And so it started, started playing around with, uh bringing increasingly large quantities of fruit into our apartment. And my husband was like, what are we, what are we doing here? Like, I don't know, I was like possessed. Um I, I had this, like, I had a song stuck in my head and I just kept trying, you know, different methods based on what I had learned from friends who are winemakers and brewers and, and operations and things that I'd seen and kitchen techniques that I had, I had utilized in the past and getting closer to this beverage that I was imagining. And then, and then I made it and started sharing it with friends. Kind of had this like mash up methodology. That's a little bit winemaker. It's a little bit like rectifier um kind of close to closer to like a remove the report.

Rachael Petach - 00:08:50
Um started sharing it with friends who had bars and restaurants and they were like, girl, this is good. Maybe this is what you want to be doing. And I was like, I think it is what I want to be doing. That's cool.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:09:18
When, when in that journey, did you investigate kind of the historical aspect of this? And can you share kind of that with the audience? Like, why, what, what is the history of blackcurrants in this country and why maybe is the the utilization and awareness? Well, at this point,

Rachael Petach - 00:09:32
yeah, so I, I sort of popped into that story right away, you know, just starting to do a little research because I realized that, you know, I had seen a lot of fresh blackcurrants in traveling in Europe and working on farms there and that they just maybe saved for occasionally being available at the Union Square green market. Like, really didn't see them in a broadcast. Have to be here fresh or also, you know, had only really seen French Crime because these show up or sometimes, you know, somebody would have like a little obsession with Rabia. So they'd have that stocked. I ate my place in, in Brooklyn is in Green Point. So there's a big Polish population. And so there are blackcurrant things there, but they're like the blackcurrant syrups. They're really, um really straightforward, um kind of classic applications of the fruit.

Rachael Petach - 00:10:06
And so I was like, there's gotta be a reason like why is this happening? Why aren't they around here? We're so obsessive and kind of food oriented, especially at this stage in American culture that it seemed strange. Um And what I found was that when immigrants started first coming over and bringing plants with them, they were bringing blackcurrants, red currents, white currents, whatever. And the ribis uh plant tends to carry a potential fungus that attacks white pine called white pine blister rust. So they're bringing in these plants and the logging industry at that point were using primarily white pine for a lot of construction. And so they felt like that's, you know, that's a direct threat to our industry.

Rachael Petach - 00:10:51
Obviously, the logging industry is more powerful um than the virgin blackcurrant industry at that time. And so they lobbied to have banned, they stayed banned, went to the States in the sixties. Um, and, and that's where it sits today. So it really takes a motivated individual in a particular state to rally for the blackcurrant. Um And we're lucky to have that guy here in New York.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:11:24
So you're saying it was a federal ban, but now it's up to the states on whether they want to allow black curing cultivation and basically state by state, someone has to lead that charge. Totally

Rachael Petach - 00:11:34
state by state. There are blight resistant varietals. There have been for a long time. They don't grow perfectly everywhere. So there's places, you know, like in the central US where they are probably always going to be banned. But it also doesn't because they're never gonna do well in that landscape. But like Pacific Northwest, parts of northern California, northeast, like they grow fantastically, they like a little bit of abuse. They want to be cold for a certain number of days per year. So like in those locations, they're, they're a fantastic and like untapped agricultural resource. I love

Anthony Corsaro - 00:12:07
it. So in this very like entrepreneurial kind of trial phase that you were in, what, what was the, the aha moment or like the unlock to really try to turn it into a business? Was it like, hey, I'm pregnant and I wanna make the world better for, you know, my Children. Was it just like, hey, I love this. I have this hospitality back. I'm getting a lot of great feedback. Was it kind of a combination of those things? Like, what was the, what was that moment in time?

Rachael Petach - 00:12:30
Yeah, I mean, I think it's a little bit of everything. It was, it was all of those aspects and it was like, this is gonna sound so, so silly, but like, it's like a, a joke that went on so long that it got taken seriously, like, I had just been like making this thing

Anthony Corsaro - 00:12:51
that's, that's real entrepreneurial vulnerability right there. Uh Because I think a lot of things are like that,

Rachael Petach - 00:12:57
you know, like I've been making this thing. I was loving it. I was obsessed with it. I was sharing it with people at work. I was like bringing it to, I was like joking with my old boss, Andrew Ta about cash and like, you know, making this giant blackcurrant thing and it, well, it seems so absurd because it was like, no one cares about blackcurrants. This is such a niche thing, but I'm having such an amazing like process with it that like, I'm gonna keep doing it. And then I started like incrementally piece by piece being like, wait, I, this is like some sort of calling and I do think that this tethers so many of the parts of my professional background, my like environmental curiosities, my penchant for making things that have a broader impact than just a, like, consumer capitalist aim. So, like, it, it really, it was like, very real but I think, you know, it did sort of come from that place of, like, play, which I think is important. Like, you know what I mean? Like, it should, I, I just think that there's like, something really genuine in that where, like, you should indulge those impulses and be like, I'm having fun with this and I this is, you know, go from there.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:14:15
Yeah. Um And so originally you were just making the right? Is that correct? And you were kind of, that's what you were kind of OK, cool. Um So take us through kind of the journey from that to like now having a production facility and opening a, a tasting room and like all that and like going into thinking about the RT D and thinking about future R and D and innovation, like, how, how do we get kind of to present

Rachael Petach - 00:14:40
day? Yeah, I mean, like do dogged stubbornness and like uh slight naivety. Um So I was making the liquor, I was putting them in these little bottles that I was sharply drawing like a bubbly see on, I was giving it to friends, you know, you can still, like, some of my friends still have pictures of these little things and they were like indulging me and I was like, really kind of like following this weird possession and impulse. And um I you know, at some point, I was like, probably trying to respond to my, my husband and partner Steve's queries about like, what are you doing with this? Like, I think that I think maybe this is something that I do want to do and I think that maybe we could make a little bit of like, let's start researching that. And so I really like dove in and it is not simple to make alcohol in the United States. It was a long process. Meanwhile, there was

Anthony Corsaro - 00:15:48
the original, was the original Accord getting made in the bathtub or what, what was the production mechanism here? Shared kitchen,

Rachael Petach - 00:15:56
my kitchen in my apartment, like little this 20 liter a like stainless steel a that acted as like a diy for mentor that then got transferred to small, you know, jars and cameras and it was like very like quintessential cottage enterprise. Yeah,

Anthony Corsaro - 00:16:17
sorry, I cut you

Rachael Petach - 00:16:18
off. But um no, I mean, that's like the important part of it. Um And yeah, so then it was like, well, what does it look like if we did want to do that? And, and how do those? And like to be perfectly honest, I think that's where maybe a lot of people with really beautiful ideas would stop. It would be right to stop at that point because then you see like all of this shit that goes along with it and it's like, it's so, it's so much and, and kind of coupled with that. I think if you're um doing something that, like, is this sort of joyful organic pursuit? And you're like, I'm gonna fund this thing, then you start going down the rabbit hole and you're like, oh, I am gonna have to do so much to like, get this even just off the ground to see if like, anyone would give a shit about buying it. And like, that's, that's kind of a gnarly roadblock. Like it's really intense to, to get past that and that's where it just stubborn, like relentless me comes in and just, I was like, this is what I need to be doing.

Rachael Petach - 00:17:16
And so going through the like, you know, bureaucratic hoops of getting a liquor license and figuring out where you're gonna manufacture it and to manufacture alcohol, it has to be zoned in a specific way. So at first I was like, oh my God, I haven't talked about some of this stuff in a really long time and it's like comedy hour for me to think about it now. But like I was doing this in Brooklyn. And so I was like, ok, we're gonna rent a space. It has to be zoned, light manufacturing and most people who have something that's zoned that way, like the Pfizer building, for example, they know that and the rents are commensurate with that. And I ran the numbers, you know, like I had a, I had an operation background and I worked in hospitality at that point for 15 years. And so I was like, ok, well, let's like, make a little spreadsheet, let's figure this out.

Rachael Petach - 00:18:13
And I probably left like, 70% of the costs out of it, like, you know, but I was like, just run some basic stuff. And, um, and I was like, oh, there's no way, there's no way I can, like, last, like, I can't pay rent on a space like that for long enough to make it, you know, turn a corner. Um And I was like, I like, looked at spaces in the back of like people's gallery art space and like, it was just stuff that wouldn't work at all. But

Anthony Corsaro - 00:18:54
what year was that Rachael? How long ago was that,

Rachael Petach - 00:18:56
that was in uh 2018 and 2019. Um And so then in 2019, we were connected via friends who had moved to Hudson and were working with, um, someone who had some properties out in the area and they were like, maybe there's something there you and we had for years been trying to figure out a way to be. So, like, I like horseback riding and gardening and like talking to no one like New York City is the most logical place for me to live. But I'm also like, deeply curious and like sensorially oriented. And so it just like, it works for a long time, but mostly in the background, I'm like, daydreaming about a farm and like, you know, space and, and being somewhere upstate. So we, we've been looking for like years for a spot and, you know, I didn't have much money and we're like, well, we'll never afford something in New York. Like, let's like, look at places we were looking at like houses that were, you know, 100 and $6200.

Rachael Petach - 00:19:49
So I needed a lot of work. Um And so these, these friends were talking to us and we were already, you know, like halfway sold and the idea of, of being more upstate and, and have been actively trying to do that. And so we started talking to the guy who had some properties and we're like, oh, maybe, do you have a space? And he had a, a small studio space, like more appropriate to an art studio than a, an actual production space like a 400 square foot clown car on the second floor of a multi unit building, not, not do not recommend. Um And we, it was like a fraction of the cost of what that si similar real estate might have been in New York. And so we started leasing that space and started working on licensing. And meanwhile, unprecedented global pandemic started unfolding.

Rachael Petach - 00:20:40
And so it was like, you know, just going through a really slow development of like, not uncertainty, but maybe there was something really stabilizing about having this thing that we were like trying to build,

Anthony Corsaro - 00:21:17
there's so much, there's so much to pull out of there. Um We can, we can do a separate, like eight hour podcast on the entrepreneurial journey of being, you know, having this joyful, creative, like vision, right? For the work and then it has to get like shoved through the machine, right? Um Which at the end of the day, attorneys and accountants run the entire world because they are like the, the pass through that all this stuff. Like if, if you have a business needs to go through and, and, and regulatory and all the things, so we, we probably don't have time for that, but I just want to note that as like I feel you, I hear you and I know a lot of our, our listeners can, can definitely relate to that. Um So you get upstate, you start moving and grooving. How do we get to present day where you're kind of producing where you are now and you, and you open the tasting room and I'd, I'd love for you to kind of speak to how you've thought about this maybe a little differently than most of the people we've interviewed because of the hospitality background and that heavy food service. Um Peace, especially because it's,

Rachael Petach - 00:22:18
yeah, so we, we started making it in our, our little studio space in the town of Catskill and, um realized very quickly that like that space was not operationally appropriate or, you know, sufficient in square footage to really house uh a growing operation. And I think growth is such an interesting thing. And I love, I love talking about growth and growth strategy and ethical growth because there's so many ways to do it and, and there's complications with all of them. So I think, you know, and conundrums built within them, right? Because like growth implies that you're really financially successful, right? Like, oh, you've grown so much that like now you're doing this other thing and that's not always the case, it's like it's, they're not, they're not neck and neck, right? Like you, you grow in terms of what you can see as possibility and the reach and the potential for the thing that you're making and, and building. Um but the, the like actual financial mechanisms of the business often take years to catch up to that.

Rachael Petach - 00:23:17
And, and so it's, it's a balance and, and sort of choreography of like when you do some pieces versus others, if you stay at the place where like, OK, the sales are here and the, and the space is here and you stay within that realm, then by the time you're like ready to grow, you might already be too behind because it's gonna take a year or two to like get that other kind of scale operation happening. OK. So that's all just, you know, like philosophically for us, it was that the, the space that we were producing in was so fucking annoying all the time that like we needed to get out of it. Like just like think of it, like walk with me for like some just like tiny operational pieces of that space, which was glorious in that we got to like prove our concept and start making this thing as an actual business and really just kind of like push a little bit into the like realm of like, can this be real and felt like, ok, we can, yeah, we can do this, but we got to do this in a place where it's like more uh appropriate for it. So we any time we would get a pallet of glassware which like for people who don't work in pallets, it's like a 40 inch by 40 inch square that's probably like 12 ft high. So it's just cases of glassware all stacked. So that would get delivered to the street, main Street in Catskill and dropped on the street. And then we would have to un palate it, like break it down and like roll cart it into our little studio and then rep paet it there.

Rachael Petach - 00:25:01
Meanwhile, there's like the peanut gallery of Catskill Main Street. Like the town drunk being like, there's gotta be a better way to do that. Like now there's better ways to do this. I, I know, I think, I don't see that. Do you wanna help? Yeah.

Rachael Petach - 00:25:15
And then hopefully just me basically at the beginning, like, you know, like I didn't build a team at first. Like I was like, this thing is not even gonna be worth the time that I've spent on it so far, let alone possibly be able to support, paying somebody else to help me. And that's, I think also another interesting thing about entrepreneurship. I know this is like about regenerative brands, but just the entrepreneurial journey that I'm sure a lot of people could, could understand and, and sympathize with is that it's really lonely at the beginning and you're like doing all of the things and it's far too much for one person to do. But the truth is that like by, by and large, unless you're like, really funding this operation, like you're not gonna be able to involve anyone else who can specialize in any part of it until much later. And so making in that studio space, desperately looking for a new space looked at pretty much every feasible possible commercial property in cats surrounding areas.

Rachael Petach - 00:26:22
And then we, we had gotten, we gotten to this point where I was literally like knocking on people's doors who had barns that looked like, maybe they could work for what I was thinking. We like, we had this really great conversation with these people who live, who were in Germantown, near, near our house and, and they were like kind of indulging that they were like, maybe, yeah, but it was like such, I mean, it was like taking like a dirt floor, like, not structurally sound, not plumbed, no electric, you know, building and bringing that and that's like a massive undertaking. You're like looking at Big Fe a loans and like a 2 to 5 year process of like, doing that. And we were like, we need a new space like yesterday and it was getting dark. I was like, I don't know what we're gonna do. I mean, we can keep doing it in this space in this format, but it is, it is rough. Um You know, every case that came out then like once you're, you know, the 400 square feet not sufficient for making actual giant liquid transfers.

Rachael Petach - 00:27:23
So you have to move things every time you want to do one thing and then every time you pack up cases and you have enough to ship out, you have to hand pull them from the space like one by one down the stairs. Um So then our friend was doing some work for a guy who had some commercial properties in Kingston and he was like, you know, you should talk to Morgan like he might have a thing for you. And I was like, all right, talk to Morgan. You know, I feel like pretty like despondent at that time. And I, I texted Morgan and was like, hey, you know, I am and this person put me in touch and he said, maybe reach out. He's like, oh yeah, which like in, uh, in a, like what I now understand to be very, like, classic of Morgan. He just like, really undersold this thing. He was like, oh, yeah, got a barn. You can come check it out.

Rachael Petach - 00:28:18
And so I thought I was coming to see like another raw barn space that would need a full gut Renault. And so I get here and, and this is also a little bit outside of the geographical area we were focusing on. I had really like being in catskill. I like, I like the like the, the energy that was there. We had a really great community of beverage producers and artists makers. And so this is in Rhinebeck and I was like, oh, it's a little far but ok, I came to see it and I walked in and it was like, he had done all of the annoying basic work that like, like it was like concrete floors, floor drains, structural reinforcements, drywall, basic plumbing and electric and then stopped, which is like a grace that almost no developer or like property owner has.

Rachael Petach - 00:28:58
They're just like, there's no ego in it. He just made it brought it up to this really great place and then was like, waiting for someone to fulfill that. So like we both needed exactly each other. And I walked in and I like straight up, started crying and was like, you want to rent this to me like, like now like today. Um so we signed a lease very quickly on this space and started working on building it out to be like a, a functional skilled operation for our distillery. And then, you know, the, the long term dream probably fed by all of like my background experiences and the different really beautiful hospitality projects I worked on was to have a place where we could welcome people in.

Rachael Petach - 00:30:00
And that's, you know, it's part historical path of like what I know, but it's also because blackcurrants are so neat that like having a place where people can really connect with what we're doing, the ways that we make decisions around the production and our sourcing, like our connection to the land and agricultural, what blackcurrants even are and why anyone should care about them, like having a physical place that can embody that and help to tell that story is like huge in terms of just the educational component of our brand.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:30:44
Yeah, I I see that as a major competitive advantage for, for brands, whether that's a home farm that's like truly vertically integrated, that people can come visit themselves or just that or a a really good job creating media around the farms that you're sourcing from. Like that is a competitive advantage to create the, you know, so for that educational gap where most, where most consumers don't understand what they're actually eating or how it's grown. Um So I wanna pause on the commercial side, come back to it in a second, but talk agronomy really quick. And I'm gonna give you the tough task of like at a high level kind of explaining why agri forestry is regenerative and then specifically like how the blackcurrants that y'all source are farmed and just like for, for the listener that may be unfamiliar with this. Like, why is it regenerative? Why is it good? Tell us about the actual farming and the agronomy piece?

Rachael Petach - 00:31:32
Yeah, totally. So I'm gonna just like, preface what I'm about to say by uh the fact that I'm like relatively new to agroforestry. Like I came to it via blackcurrants and sourcing blackcurrants. So we have um a friend Seth who had been working with uh some agroforestry guys that actually connected us um through propagate and he had been planting chestnut trees with them at a property in Livingston just about 10 minutes from where we live. And he, you know, unrelated to what we were up to. They had decided to be planting blackcurrants alongside the chestnuts. Um And so like you guys should talk like you should just know them and like what they're up to. Um And so we met up and, you know, i it was very early on in the planning of that property propagate as just sort of like by way of a, a broad overview, partners with landowners who have a sustainable vision and works with them on agri forestry development and implementation. Um So they had partnered with the landowner there and they were like, yeah, we're gonna plant black and they planted some in, but there were still about two thirds of the plot that they hadn't planted.

Rachael Petach - 00:32:35
And so I got to work with them a bit on, you know, varietal selection and I worked a planting day with them and I just got to see more of that and talk a lot about the agri forestry aspect of it because I honestly didn't know that blackcurrants worked so well in an agri forestry application. But uh they do. And um you know why agroforestry is meaningful? I mean, I think, you know, there's any anybody who's around our age grew up in the time when like there was a lot of ps a messaging around trees and earth day and like planted trees. But like that's real, like the more trees that we have, the better it can support our ecosystem and environment, human health biology. Um And trees, trees like to be in community like all of us. So trees don't want to necessarily be a monoculture.

Rachael Petach - 00:33:16
It's not gonna solve the problem by like planting a bunch of the same kind of tree in like one spot and be like, OK, we checked that box trees want a diverse and robust ecosystem. Um And so finding plants that are like friends with the trees is huge to be like, ok, well, like how can we maximize the potential benefit of like how that soil economy is happening and like how the different pieces of what the trees offer in terms of shade and environment and hospitality or different bugs and plants and animals. Um And then what other plants kind of like fill in the understory and support that? And how can those things be potentially monetized? So that there's even more motivation for people to make those decisions that like benefit the environment and human health in a way that actually like is reasonable expectation from a primarily capitalist driven society. Yeah.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:34:34
Yeah, I mean, yeah, I love it and shout out to the whole propagate crew. Um They're doing amazing work and there's like this really cool burgeoning uh Hudson Valley uh agri, you know, ecosystem and specifically agri forestry. Um And you know, I, I try and break it down super rudimentary, which is just the vast majority of this country, like was some sort of agroforestry savannah before we colonized and, you know, sold the land from the indigenous people and did what we do. Um Now. Um And so you can get really technical with the they sequester carbon, they reduce soil erosion, they're uh they're perennials and not annual. So there's, there's a ton of stuff we could, we could geek out on, we probably send other people. Uh We probably send people to other people that are, have more expertise there than you and I, but I think at, at, at a rudimentary level, what what I like is it's diversity for the human being that's consuming, right? It has all these ecosystem services, but it's also diversity for the farmers. They're not so um tied to one or two specific commodity markets and allows them to diversify their operation, which we come back to why we have this podcast to talk about offtake, right?

Anthony Corsaro - 00:35:30
And talk about the brands that people like you are building because that doesn't work unless there's a market, right? Our partners for those people to sell the actual stuff that comes off the trees or the farm too.

Rachael Petach - 00:35:58
Yeah, totally value added products are crucial to the future of I think farming potential in the US. And it's interesting being in the Hudson Valley because you talk to a lot of people who've lived here for a long time. You know, our neighbor across the street is a farmer and he sings that song where he's like, the young people don't want to farm and nobody wants to work. And why isn't it like the old days? And I try to have these really brutal and kind of honest conversations with him about like, well, it might be that we have put all of our subsidies in the wrong place and like the structure of how the financials of that work are really tough to make possible. And so it's a big motivating factor for me in creating something like where it's like, that can tie to all of these practices in farming that I fully believe in as like future for this planet and like make them actually function. Um And then the, the other aspect of it is like, you know, the the agri forestry stuff is phenomenal but then blackcurrants in general, I think are just such an interesting sort of agricultural resource to talk about. And you know, one of the people that is so central to what we do is this guy Greg Quinn, he was the guy that like rallied for the band to be overturned. Albany sort of like the godfather of blackcurrants in the northeast.

Rachael Petach - 00:37:12
And um has like, he's amazing and um he has these, you know, fields of blackcurrants that are, you know, no pesticides like barely, you know, weed, he allows for the existing biodiversity to flourish within those plantings. And that doesn't interfere with the way that they're harvested. And he has a whole methodology on like the distance planting and the ways that rose should be spaced so that it allows for that yeah, to actually exist. And um and they're also really amazing for bees. The blackcurrants are super supportive of aquaculture. And so we only sweeten with raw wild honey, which is made by here in Valley also.

Rachael Petach - 00:38:06
And so that like this thing where it's like, it seems so obvious, but for some reason we like, you know, can't get there sometimes, but like the things that grow together go together, like in that sort of vein and philosophy, it's like that the bees already love the blackcurrants, the honey complementing the blackcurrant flavor and the like bolstering of both of those pieces of that little ecosystem is one of the things that I think is really special about what we do here. Like,

Anthony Corsaro - 00:38:43
yeah, I love that. And I think the, the challenge and the opportunity as an entrepreneur is for someone like you to step back and say, OK, what are the product formats, right? And what is the branding and the marketing and, and the strategy to really get this into people's mouths? Right? And um so would love for you to just kind of riff on how you've looked at product innovation and product formats to date and what you see in the future. I mean, you've done the core, you've done the RT D, you've done a limited edition como I think that's the three main things if my memory serves me, correct. Um But how do you know how does the Agronomic and also the nutritional and then also the category analysis of those products? Like how do you find the perfect intersection of that men diagram?

Rachael Petach - 00:39:30
I mean, I don't know how to be perfect in anything. I mess up all the time. But in terms of like how I think about that like structure. It's like um it's part sort of like natural innovation. So for example, you know, with the advent of this space that we are not producing, we have a little more room to be experimental again, which was what like where this thing came from to begin with. And I think is crucial for um like my creative process and, and developing new ideas for like what can happen with this. And so now that we have a little more space, a little more tank room, we can take, for example, £800 of pressed fruit from one of our batches of liquor and look at like second dairy and tertiary uses for that potential waste material. Like we already have a whole compost thing like lined up and looped in where we work with ozone who are incredible and they pick up our, our, our vegetable waste. But what if it didn't have to be waste or what if we could do like two other things before it actually turned into that? And so from that sort of like brain path to kind of think about? Ok.

Rachael Petach - 00:40:30
Do we wanna like look at rehydrating them for uh another co ferment or for some sort of like Piket version of things or are we looking at salt curing them? Which is something that we've been doing for a good, like year and a half now where we're looking at them like, like the way you would think about like an Italian salt cured olive. Um And so preserving the pressed currents that way. And then looking at like, what can you make with that? So we're folding those into handmade crackers. We're put, making things like the akin to like a ta ad with that. We're using them for the salty current compo.

Rachael Petach - 00:41:07
So it's like all of these different places where you look at like, OK, there's this core production. We know a lot more about it now that we're almost three years into existing as business and like what are the waste pieces? Where can we lock things and where can we tighten it up? I look at that from also in terms of like a sourcing or a packaging perspective, like any place that I can eliminate anything that's single use. I do like for the honey, for example, we like get the buckets, we use them here, we wash the buckets, we take them back, ray refills them like for, you know, beverage transfers like large liquid transfers for source material with regards to like the wine that we use from our friends at Hudson Chatham, um bringing those in, in vessels that are then reused again and again and again. So cycling things, you know, the idea of being perennial in agriculture works the same in, in production too. And it takes, you know, a little bit more thought and a little more effort for sure. It's, it's not like the, the path of least resistance.

Rachael Petach - 00:42:08
But it's like the shit that you can just try to like do it better.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:42:31
I love the desire for experimentation and creativity and also the waste reduction pieces because it's like, that's already basically a cost on the business. And how do you turn it into a place for margin expansion and that should ultimately be better for the brand and everyone else involved in the supply chain, ie the farmers and the processors and all that. Um You know, 11 great piece of curiosity. Go ahead. Go ahead.

Rachael Petach - 00:42:58
No, I was just gonna say that um in regards to uh like beverage source material, I always freak out a little bit about my choices when I talk to friends who are cider makers or winemakers because the price per pound on blackcurrants is like five times what it is on those uh elements. So in terms of margin expansion and like finding secondary uses for it, it becomes even more important to think about things that way so that you can make something that's sustainable and able to like house and support a real thriving business. I

Anthony Corsaro - 00:43:32
I'm so happy you went there because that's where my brain was going to around just on the side, right? We've had and, and I take back what I said earlier, we've had two wine brands on. So we have done a, we just haven't done non wine yet. Um But we know you have to go through the three tier distribution system, it's a totally different route to market than conventional grocery or, or natural channel grocery, right? And my assumption as a consumer is people really value this like artisan vibe or, or points of differentiation that are like pretty mainstream, but they might not get all the way to valuing the nutritional piece or the agronomic piece or the ecosystem service piece. So how does that play into your strategy with go to market? I mean, you know, in the type of accounts that you target from a, from an distribution perspective.

Rachael Petach - 00:44:22
Yeah, I mean, there's a couple of things kind of within that, that I think about a lot. So, um you know, I'm like, where do I want to start with it? Um I always kind of shy away from talking about the nutritional benefits of blackcurrants even though there are many, many of them because at the end of the day I make alcohol and I'm like a little like, wary of conflating that idea, be like drink this to be healthy. Like if you want to be super healthy, like don't drink Alcott. Um but you're gonna do it anyway. This is like a better version of it, you know, like we eliminate the synthetics, eliminate the commercially processed white sugar, like drink it made from something that is farmed in a way that you can really feel good about. And even further than that, you know, I think there's all those studies about like drinking a glass of red wine being great for your heart. Health like blackcurrants are psycho good for you. They're like four times the vitamin C of oranges.

Rachael Petach - 00:45:13
They have Gayle Aleni acid, which is fat burning for the liver. They're full of anthocyanins, antioxidants. They're, you know, taming for radicals in the body. They're like, they're a super fruit. Let's go

Anthony Corsaro - 00:45:36
on the train.

Rachael Petach - 00:45:38
I know. Get it. Everyone should be drinking blackcurrant juice. Like honestly, it's like gonna your blood pressure, it's gonna be a natural uh like illness fighting like immunity boosting thing. I mean, we used to like joke but maybe it's true like I didn't get COVID for a really long time because it was just like mainlining blackcurrant like her. Um It's not real, don't listen to me. Um But there, so there's that stuff like, you know, that's there. It's real. I like the idea of these auxiliary non-alcoholic potential products because then you can really communicate more effectively with people around the things that are so brilliant about blackcurrants to begin with all that said, I think with beverage alcohol and sometimes with, you know, other things in, in CPG or R TV, space like almost not talking about that stuff has a power in and of itself and like this is something this is so like not fully formed and I feel like you and I could have like a really awesome, like hours long conversation about what I, the things I'm about to say um is like, where you're gonna kick me off the podcast. But I think that like on a, from a branding side, from a branding side, I'm almost like not putting things like regen or organic certified, like those things, there is like a classism built into that structure that is really complicated.

Rachael Petach - 00:46:59
And I think that if you're looking at something from the perspective of like this product is amazing and I really believe in its potential and the way that it impacts the environment and human health and all of those pieces like that's gonna exist, that's real, that's happening already. And the best thing you could potentially do is to get that to the most people possible. And that's like really democratizing it. And like, I don't know, stats enough about people's uh like beverage consumption behavior. But my guess is by seeing, you know, what things are mostly on the shelf and what everybody's drinking like day in day out, it's like a good majority of people do not give one shit about whether something is horrifying for them or not. And so almost like not talking about it is really powerful to be like that. Like the can I think about this a lot with the can. So our little canned after is made from just the liquor is the base. It is really excellent for you.

Rachael Petach - 00:48:12
It is a cool product. I think it's amazing. But, like, I also want someone to just pick it up because it's, like, cute and tastes good and it doesn't actually matter to them that, like, that's the part of it. Like, I want it to be indirect, you know, like in the same playing field as like a high noon, like, it just takes, you know, none of like, high noon is not talking about their, like nutrition benefits. Coca Cola doesn't talk about like any environmental thing, you know, like these are not the keys to success for those that category necessarily. And so like, I don't know,

Anthony Corsaro - 00:49:06
I gotta, yeah, I gotta agree with you. Right. And we've, and it's, it's, it's really cool to hear someone that's like doing some pioneering work in the space. Um talk about on the podcast for the first time because it super aligns with, I think what colonized takeaways have been from all the, the mainly retail food and BEV stuff that we've done mainly food is just, there's not a, there's not a critical mass of consumers that care enough. So while you do want to cater to that 1 to 5% of people that are really gonna care and you want to capture that be market, like my opinion is you're going to anyway, right? Even if, even if you don't lead with it and we know from a psychological perspective, like those are not the leading value props that drive purchase, it's still flavor, you know, convenience, uh taste price, how it looks. So it's exactly what you're talking about. And we've had a couple of guest blogs and other people have commented on it and there's been terms kind of thrown around like the Trojan Horse strategy or, you know, whatever it is. But the way that I frame it up is you just have to win on the fundamentals like you have to, it's, it's like table sticks. Like this is how you have to operate a brand that like actually is gonna work.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:50:01
And then on the back end, I think you can attach all that other good stuff like and make it stickier and make people care more and make people feel good after you lead with the positive interaction of I just consume the product and the product and the brand is, is kick ass. Um

Rachael Petach - 00:50:26
So for sure and like, how cool is that to be like giving people who wouldn't maybe necessarily be as compelled or curious about those aspects from like a decision to purchase point of view. But like they're coming at it from the other side, they like found this thing and it didn't alienate them or make them feel like it wasn't for them. And then they're like, oh and also these other things are part of this and like I do feel extra good about it or like that is that is cool. Now to me because it's associated with this thing that I already found and like was sold on

Anthony Corsaro - 00:51:02
and I don't, I don't have the Harvard business review case study to back this up. But like just as a consumer as someone that's very, you know, in the know, on brand and, and branding, like it's kind of the difference of you either are cool or you are very clearly trying to be cool and like brands that just are cool and brands that try to be cool. Don't,

Rachael Petach - 00:51:22
yeah, like showing versus telling is like a, you know, a thing that you think about and I have a kid and so that's all it was big and like an educational component. But it's true for brands also. I think

Anthony Corsaro - 00:51:35
um I wanna give you a second to just dive a little deeper into the tasting room because I know that it's opening, it's just opened, it's opening next week like we got, we got. So

Rachael Petach - 00:51:45
yeah,

Anthony Corsaro - 00:51:46
let's go. Um So I just want you to, to chat about that and fill people in on what's going on there. Why that's part of the strategy and why you're excited about that?

Rachael Petach - 00:51:55
Yeah, so we built this sort of um little annex into our production space where it has a, a very small bar. People are gonna be able to come and try some blackcurrant cocktails uh which is huge because I think a big question around something that you know isn't as much of a mainstay on the bar. Like the thing that we make is like, what do we do with it? And, and how is it good and what, what things can I be creative about? So, having a place where we can kind of tailor that experience to people and show them like some really awesome things and applications for this product. Like that's amazing. You can taste the liquor, you can see a little bit into our production process.

Rachael Petach - 00:52:24
Understand a bit more about blackcurrants. We're also planting in blackcurrants in the spring. And so there will then there are some already planted but the ability to actually like see the plant to talk about like how those fruits grow and like look at them and touch them and be like, OK, let's have a little bit more recognition with that. Um And then we also have this really amazing culinary capacity as well. So we're uh like a little provisions market. So it's gonna be a picnic haven where people can buy like things that were growing in the garden that have been turned into a packaged good.

Rachael Petach - 00:52:55
That's just like so fresh, so interesting and like you could take that, you could picnic here, you could picnic somewhere else, you could take it to a dinner party or cocktail party, kind of like have it as something that you keep in your fridge. We're so so excited about a lot of the things and there's like this red thread to blackcurrant with a lot of those as well. So things like the or we're making a version of Doma but with blackcurrant leaves as the wrap rather than grape leaves. And so those have been really fun, start to like understand and play around with um and you'll be able to, you know, discover and buy a number of really amazing products from New York State producers that we're super excited about. So people like, you know, another Moon Brewing Left Bank Ciders, Arrowwood Farm Suarez la Salina Matchbook. Um people that are making really agriculturally driven um really cool things and they'll change out frequently and um yeah, I, I hope that it's a place of, of discovery and, and sort of respite. We want it to just be like take a little pause in nature.

Rachael Petach - 00:54:02
Have a moment. Try some new things.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:54:22
Yeah, I love it. I have one logistical question and then kind of a general comment, logistical question is this is in Rhinebeck, New York, correct? Mhm. And if, if you want to find it, if they want to like Google map it or like search something, what's the best way for them to find it? Just search the, the brand name or

Rachael Petach - 00:54:40
something? Yeah, we're, yeah, we're, you can search the brand name. Go to our website at CC dot com. We're at 108 Salisbury. There's a whole page on our website about visiting us and that has info on the tasting room hours, but largely, you know, it's open on the weekends. It's a daytime thing. Um close, close to the Rhinecliff train station.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:55:04
It's, it's incredibly clear, the amount of intentionality and thought that's gone into it. So congrats on kind of getting to the finish line or, or I'm sure it feels like one of many finish lines. Um I

Rachael Petach - 00:55:15
can't wait to come. It's been a long process.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:55:19
Um My, my overall like macro changing consumer demand comment is regen has to link itself with foodie culture just like local food did for us to be successful because we have to like harvest those opportunities of people sitting down at a bar or restaurant or coffee shop or a tasting room or whatever for education and awareness building and awesome impactful experiences. Um because even though I'm so bullish on region brands doing this with demos at the grocery store, like it's just, it's just not the same, right? And, and I think it has a much higher leverage potential to have an impact on how people consume what they consume, what they share about it. Like there's just something really fucking cool about it honestly, like there's a coolness factor that you really just can't quantify. Um So I am also just super bullish on brands that find a way to attach themselves to that foodie culture in food service, in hospitality as like a high leverage point of, of

Rachael Petach - 00:56:15
emphasis. Yeah, totally. I mean, I think I also tie it to just that like experimental joy place of like that being the the most fruitful lesson of, of anything is like having something that really sparks your curiosity or delights you in a way that you weren't necessarily expecting. And so just having more moments for that in life. Yeah,

Anthony Corsaro - 00:56:44
I love that. They gave me chills. Um Last last two questions to bring us home Rachael. First one being just anything that we haven't talked about that's in the future vision or that you want to share about future products or future distribution or tasting room V two or, you know, vertically integrated and currents on the farm like I'm sure there's, I'm sure there's a million things. But um what else in the future vision is, is, is percolating?

Rachael Petach - 00:57:12
Um I, you know, there are, there are a million things all the time kind of sitting there and, and that we're excited about. But um most immediately I think is that um we're gonna have some really exciting wholesale products that are in more of like the pantry or nonalcoholic world just as a result of, of being able to have this space and, and ability to make them. And so there'll be um a dried tea blend that is gonna be available in the tasting room and then slowly but surely in in more locations. But it's this blend that ties to the botanicals that we use in the liquor and then it's just something that I have been drinking a lot at home, which is blackcurrant leaf tea with cardamom and lemon rabia. Um And so we're gonna start off with that and just like a, you know, single large batch, it'll come with the sachet in it. You can make like a big sun tea or just some giant hot tea. It's good for you in a number of reasons, but it'll be really fun.

Rachael Petach - 00:58:06
Um And then, and then yeah, all the, all the like things that we've learned from living or not living, but like being on this property and working with this land and space for a year and how we can carry that into the next season, both in our market garden and our farming practices and introducing more blackcurrant plantings for more like, you know, the equivalent of like in a state grown thing. But for me, I think it's more, it's most compelling because people are so unfamiliar with blackcurrants. And so if they could come here and like walk in fields and actually, like, see the fruit and try it fresh, like that's, I mean, that feels really, yeah,

Anthony Corsaro - 00:58:50
I, I'm smiling as you're saying that because I, one thing I really admire about you is you're just, you're in it, right? Like this is our first phone call where I think you haven't had a hairnet and a lab coat on because you're literally just like coming off the production floor, like making the actual product. So I just, I salute

Rachael Petach - 00:59:06
you for that. I did my hair. I put the makeup on today. Yeah.

Anthony Corsaro - 00:59:11
Um Love that. Well, exciting, exciting stuff on the horizon. Um Last, last question is kind of taken at Macro to the the question we asked everyone um which feel free to take your time. It's a big one. How do we get return our brands at 50% market share by 2050?

Rachael Petach - 00:59:29
Oh, I mean, I think we already touched on it a little bit. Like, don't talk about it, like get in the back door, you know, there's like, like have those core values and get that out there to as many people as possible because I do, I like, I really do believe that there is this, like, as much as that can be compelling to people in the ways that, you know, labeling or environmental alignment can really sell in, like you said earlier, like those people are gonna come to the things anyways. And a lot of times I think there's like this, this like exclusionary or polarizing way. Like I don't, we didn't talk about this at all and it's too late to start it really. But I'm sure you've encountered that like Regen itself can be like a polarizing idea in among farmers farming practice. You know, there's just like, there's a lot of misunderstandings about it and its practices and impact. Um And so, yeah, I mean, I feel, I feel like keep doing like, keep spreading that in terms of like, how you're talking about your brand with people, how you're communicating with other makers and like, how you can encourage more regenerative practices across the board and then on the branding and like consumer product side, like almost just like downplay it, let it be like, let it be the like the grace, the like icing this like thing that is central to you, but like doesn't have to be central to the person to like be converted to the thing that you're doing.

Rachael Petach - 01:00:27
Yeah, I know, I don't have a Harvard MB A either.

Anthony Corsaro - 01:01:09
No, I, I so agree. I, I so agree. And I had a really, I, I had a nice spicy conversation about this, this past week at the RSI forum which is a uh a form about investing in return of agriculture. And Claire from Western Reign Creative was there and she's amazing and she was the be a partner for the event. Um They work with, you know, regenerative farmers ranchers, brands, other organizations like the Savory Institute. So shout out Claire and, and what they do. Um But we were having a kind of moment of contention around how do we communicate the, the beauty and the full like essence of regen like in the way that we need to, with consumers. And you know, I, I was, I was not trying to water down or have a lack of respect for that, that awesome deep essence and story. But it also isn't the way that we know psychologically like consumers like are buy more stuff, right?

Anthony Corsaro - 01:01:47
And so maybe that just whole thing is so flawed and like trying to kind of shove this into that system is like the wrong way. But my opinion is we're gonna have to at least in the short term. Um So it's like, how do we do this dance between that beautiful depth and that essence and also like this two second attention span on the shelf at the bar or whatever to almost have that incognito approach that you and I have talked about today. And I think um I'm really excited about like that challenge. I think it's gonna be really, really hard, but there's a lot of amazing people kind of trying to build a brain trust to, to solve for that.

Rachael Petach - 01:02:39
Cool. I love that. Yeah. And I, I would love to kind of just continue to hear more about what those like philosophies are and what feels like it's impactful and, and successful on that on that front. I, I think, you know, at least at the size that I'm at, which is so small. Um And, and with some other producers that, that I really respect and love, I think that like being true to the value system that, you know, you have aligned already with regenerative agriculture and reuse and minimizing waste and like having that be central to you and like core to the operational side is like, where you're just gonna stay true to that vision and then just make the thing that you want to make, like, put it out there in the most creative like way that feels most aligned with like you and like what you're, what you're into, not necessarily the like the messaging the branding, the like teaching moment like that will come, that will happen, make a good product, make a thing that you stand by and that you really love. That's what people want, right? Per perfect

Anthony Corsaro - 01:03:48
mic drop to close us. Um This has been so amazing and so informative. Um Just appreciate you and all your work and thank you for joining us.

Rachael Petach - 01:03:58
No, thanks for having me. This is fun.

Anthony Corsaro - 01:04:00
Absolutely. Any, any you you gave the Uro but Rachael, will you give that again or the Instagram or any places where we make sure people know what's

Rachael Petach - 01:04:09
going on? Totally. Go to our website. It's C. Cassis dot com. So just ccas si S dot com. Our Instagram is current cais dot uh no dots just it's an Instagram handle at current, current. I know the internet is cool and contemporary. Um Yeah, yeah. Those go find us on the internet. Love it, love it. Let me here.

Anthony Corsaro - 01:04:45
Well, thank you so much for joining us, Rachael. This is amazing. Thank you

Rachael Petach - 01:04:49
talk soon

Anthony Corsaro - 01:04:53
for show notes, episode transcripts and more information on our guests and what we discuss on the show. Check out our website regen-brands.com, that is regen-brands.com. You can also find our Regen recaps on the website. Regen recaps, take less than five minutes to read and cover all the key points of the full hour long conversations. You can check out our youtube channel ReGen Brands Podcast for all of our episodes with both video and audio. The best way to support our work is to give us a five star rating on your favorite podcast platform. Subscribe to future episodes and share the show with your friends. Thanks for tuning in to the ReGen Brands Podcast brought to you by the Regen Coalition and Outlaw Ventures. We hope you learned something new in this episode and it empowers you to use your voice, your time and your dollars to help us build a better and more regenerative food system. Love you guys.