#21 - Robby Sansom @ Force of Nature

Episode Recap:

ReGen Brands Recap #21 - Reclaiming The Legacy of Meat - (RECAP LINK)

Episode Transcript:

Disclaimer: This transcript was generated with AI and is not 100% accurate.

Kyle Krull - 0:00:16
Welcome to The ReGen Brands Podcast. This is a place for consumers, operators and investors to learn about the consumer brands supporting regenerative agriculture and how they're changing the world. This is your host, Kyle, joined by my co-host, AC, who is going to take us into the episode.

Anthony Corsaro - 0:00:33
On this episode we have Robby Sansom, who is the co-founder and CEO at Force of Nature meats. Force of Nature is supporting regenerative agriculture through its line of Regeneratively focused meats that nourish our bodies, our soil, and our future. In this episode, we learned about Force of Nature's Origin story, how vastly different their products are from mainstream meat, and how they're sparking a regenerative revolution through transparency and storytelling. Robby is truly one of the most articulate people I've met in the regenerative space, and he does an amazing job of both unpacking the complexity of the problems our current agricultural system is reckoning with and the regenerative solutions for them. Super excited to share this episode with you all. Let's dive in. What's up everybody? Welcome back to another episode of The ReGen Brands Podcast. We are very, very excited today to have Robby from Force of Nature meats. So welcome Robby.

Robby Sansom - 0:01:29
Hey, thanks a lot for having me, guys.

Kyle Krull - 0:01:31
It's good to be here, man. We we love what you do, we love the brand, love the the noise you're making in the industry. You know, for those who are not familiar with Force of Nature, give us a quick lay of the land. What do you make you know how many skills do you have and where can people find you today from like a distribution perspective?

Robby Sansom - 0:01:47
Well, that's that's there's no short answer to that, but I'll be. I'm sure the, the, the, the, the trailing hour or so will probably elaborate more on that very same answer. But you know Force of Nature is a is a a brand in the meat category offering meats and in different forms whether that's you know raw ground meat and steaks and and those awesome cuts or already precooked sausages and whether it's for breakfast or dinner or lunch. And we're launching hot dogs here soon. So basically have all the types of. Protein you want for different meals throughout the day and then we offer a variety of proteins as well. So from the traditional poultry and beef type items as well as you know non traditional exotics which are some of the fastest, most popular.

Robby Sansom - 0:02:22
Growing proteins out there from venison, elk, wild boar which are you know incredible invasive species and all of those animals and and and and sourcing standards that we have are coming from you know pasture raised 100% grass fed ranches or they're wild harvested or they're truly fully regenerative in the in the case of you know our beef and and and our bison and then we offer all of that. In an Omni channel capacity. So for the average person, what the heck does that mean? You can you can find us at about on about almost 20,000 store shelves across the country and retail outlets you can order. You can hop onto our website, order and we'll ship it to your door anywhere in the contiguous US and then there's, you know, a handful of restaurant chains like hopdoddy as an example, that really care a lot about sourcing regenerative proteins and offering the best quality food for their customers and.

Robby Sansom - 0:03:06
You can find us in those outlets as well. And so you know what that really effectively allows us to do is lower the hurdle for consumers who want to support these good systems. Right before we started this company, I'm sure we'll get into it. It was more challenging than it needed to be to really drive solutions at scales. The scale for a consumer to find and support regenerative systems, right, they were out there no doubt. There's incredible producers and and and and groups trying to to drive this.

Robby Sansom - 0:03:36
Of a change we all want to see, but there was a huge burden and learning curve. Where they consumer to educate themselves, scour the scour their, their community trying to find where there may be access to these things and then vet the actual standards themselves and then do that times every protein, right. And we were like wait a minute, that barrier is way too high for the average consumer. How do they, how do we make it so easy for them that they almost have to go out of their way to avoid sourcing or generative proteins. And so that's that's sort of where we're at right. We're everywhere a consumer is with the types of proteins they want, how they like to buy it. We want to make it easy.

Robby Sansom - 0:04:13
To connect those consumers, you know to the other side of our mission which is working with land stewards and producers and processors and and different regions across the country and globe to create these supply networks that connect the good actors, the heroes on the front lines producing this food with the consumers that are that are excited about supporting those systems and and and value what they get out of those systems. And so really we're connecting. The folks on the front lines on both our ends, right, the consumers who have been underserved and misled with the producers who have, you know, frankly are in a. Hopeless situation, losing their land at at rapid pace and stuck in a system that is punitive to their very existence. Trying to offer alternatives for both. So it's big, it's a big task.

Anthony Corsaro - 0:05:31
Yeah, man, it's it's beautiful, though. It's like a it's like a beautiful piece of infrastructure building to let those two ends just do what they want to do, which is eat great food and make great food. You know, those people don't really want to do all the extra other stuff that we're forcing them to do in the current system. The wild boars. Phenomenal. So that that was definitely my favorite thing that I've tried that I wasn't exposed to before being a Force of Nature customer and the DC customer customer experience is also great. Just for anyone out there that wants to give that a whirl, you know, you guys, absolutely you guys have a seasoned team. This is kind of your second go around in the CPG space guided by you know really successful run with EPIC. So just maybe take us through kind of that journey with epic and then how that turned into Force of Nature just to give some folks the background there and how that's all.

Robby Sansom - 0:06:19
Over the years. Yeah, again, I'll try. I'll try to be brief, to condense the deck a decade into into a into a sentence.

Anthony Corsaro - 0:06:28
We we got time we got.

Robby Sansom - 0:06:30
Time. No I mean the the the beauty of epic. You know Katie and Taylor were the were the cofounders of Epic and they are my cofounders now in Force of Nature and and I joined them at Epic. When we had like 3 products and we're a few months old and the three of us built it together. And you know at at, at the time I joined they had just transitioned from being you know vegans and running a a vegan energy bar company to having gone through and experience of health issues, GI issues, inflammation, joint issues, pretty, pretty to a pretty significant degree. Katie has been seeing specialists and was really struggling. She was a high performance athlete, was like I'm doing all the things. I'm doing everything they say on television and then and and the mainstream media and the public.

Robby Sansom - 0:06:50
This, you know, the narrative out there of vegan raw food, vegan juicing, and I'm just getting worse and. Eventually got guidance like hey, you should probably introduce healthy animal based proteins back in your diet. See how that goes. And it was like a light switch right? Almost instantaneous.

Robby Sansom - 0:07:26
Recovery and and and turn around of those symptoms and so they pretty much were like hey we need to reincorporate these proteins that are offering we gotta let, we gotta move away from this plant based strictly business and and move into you know that was the dawn of epic right and so we were able to grow that and it was early on and. You know the the paleo that which turned into you know, it's kind of transitioned into keto and now maybe in some ways carnivore at at the time though it was the front edge of that. Nobody was really talking about grass fed, let alone regenerative. But these these vegan ideals, those values still persisted, right? I mean it's who, what conscious and intentional living person doesn't find some recognition of value for welfare of animals for stewardship of land and maintenance of natural systems for human health, right. And.

Robby Sansom - 0:07:55
You know, yeah, so as Epic was was being born, it was OK well if we're gonna have a meat based item, how do we make sure that it is improving those systems and not degrading them as meat is often vilified for doing right? And that became really clear that pasture raising animals and feeding them diets they evolved to exist on and letting them express evolutionary behaviors and live in systems that would be evolutionarily consistent with their breed and species and and and lifestyle. You know addresses all of those factors to the point I'm not only mitigating issue but driving solutions and we call that regenerating and then of course and then of course regenerative agriculture. You know, we partnered up with Savory Institute very early on because we were all kind of up and coming together and that was just the rabbit hole that took us down the dinner of agriculture. So epic grew. We were fortunate enough to sell that to General Mills and that was a very intense time for us. You know, it was like how do you do this? You know, you don't start.

Robby Sansom - 0:08:54
A small company that's mission based and values driven with the intention to sell it to, you know, a large Fortune 500 big food conglomerate. You know that we would, but the average natural product consumer might call the enemy, right. And so for us that that process was very interesting because we held that same limiting beliefs and preconceived notion towards who and what that what a transaction like that might represent and ultimately. Yeah, they came to the table with not wanting to adulterate the product. Not, not.

Robby Sansom - 0:09:55
The, you know, exiting any members of our team or our supply chain network who literally are families that bet the farm on us and telling us like, hey, you don't get it, what y'all are doing is working. We actually want you to influence and change us, not the other way around. And so that that transaction went through and then for three years we ran the brands there to carefully steward that hand over department by department, process by process and and they and they fulfilled you know they, they they followed through on, on their, on their commitment up to and including the whole deal almost fell apart as a result of our insistence on the value and benefit of regenerative agriculture. And it was so misunderstood and unknown. They thought that we were we thought that we were just a bunch of cavalier.

Robby Sansom - 0:10:16
Texans out making unfounded claims where where clearly cattle must be evil and to say that they could be part of a solution would expose them to false advertising across their entire portfolio and how could how could they acquire this brand that could jeopardize the value of Cheerios or or any of the millionaires. This is this is this is 2015 and 2016 and we took him out to Regenerative Ranch and the deal came through and then within the first year and a half. Post acquisition they had you know fully done it about face on their position of regenerative agriculture and we're became the first Fortune 500 company to make a commitment to convert a significant portion of their supply chain to our generative agriculture and in their case that's 1,000,000 acres following them was then Danone, then PepsiCo, then then many others, right. And so you know that was a huge moment for for us for this movement and I think a recognition that like hey these. You know, small, up and coming emerging brands are really powerful and we do important things, but the only way that ever manifests in the real change is at scale. And so there has to come a point in some way, shape or form where there's there's that moment where we collaborate with an organization that can support these missions at scale and we recognize.

Robby Sansom - 0:11:46
Where though nothing is perfect, there is massive progress that can occur and that's and that's the avenue and path forward. So anyway really excited about that transaction. As far as Force of Nature goes, we kept hoping in that three-year. Before you know we kind of had fully completed the transition that somebody would obviously pick up the baton and torch and start a.

Anthony Corsaro - 0:12:26
You know, regenerative.

Robby Sansom - 0:12:27
Based meat company and again there's there's companies out there particularly in beef or particularly in you know different proteins or just regionally great, it's just amazing people out there. So I don't mean to claim that we're the first, we're just the first doing all of this at the scale and bring band forward and bring content based and education based as well. Um, and nobody really checked the box that scaled to make it again easy for consumers, right? And so. Knowing how challenging it is to to live in the startup world and drive a business. We weren't really enthusiastic about doing it again. We didn't need to do it again. But honestly honestly we felt like it was a responsibility. We were uniquely positioned with a set of skills and experience. We've sort of already built a supply chain. We were very well educated on regenerative AG and the limitations and the opportunities and and and it just needed to be done and so we said you know what we'll do it and if we and if if nothing else other then we raise more awareness and.

Robby Sansom - 0:12:52
Kick the door open for somebody else to to finish the job so be it. But like we're committed to doing our very best to finish the job ourselves and and so you know three years after that that that sale we started Force of Nature and that was you know early 2019 and and and here we are today. You know it's been been a wild ride and still is.

Kyle Krull - 0:13:42
Even crazy.

Anthony Corsaro - 0:13:45
It's beautiful man. And I think the the General Mills thing to me is we we we fall into that misconception like you said of all all big is not bad and ultimately you know those folks are going nowhere and if we don't if we don't help them get better you know we're not going to really change anything. So I love I love that y'all took that approach and it sounds like they were extremely collaborative and you know it's I haven't strung together the pieces like you you did about kind of then being the first domino to fall on the big commitments but like if we if that doesn't happen. You know, who knows? And basically that empowers the rest of the ecosystem to kind of work towards that North Star and and take that action. So just it's just amazing that that that all happened from, you know, y'all trying to sell a better really meat meats snack. You know, beef stick or forget the I forget the exact first item. But I mean it's incredible.

Robby Sansom - 0:14:35
Yeah, it is. And you know again I don't want to take credit for being the catalyst right. This is a multi decade, multi generation long movement and. I think we've certainly played a role in it and and if anything maybe helped be an accelerant for certain parts of it, but I think. You know, we're not alone. And I'm so encouraged by the overwhelming buildup of different parties and different service groups and different organizations and brands and. It's just like more and more people show up everyday in masses to try to be a part of the solution and play a a role where we're diverse roles are needed to help bring awareness to these issues and and offer better solutions for consumers and you know address the myriad of challenges that our current agriculture system has has created. And so you know, we're we're a part of that and we're proud to be a part of it and we're going to do the best we can. But we're definitely not alone fortunately.

Anthony Corsaro - 0:15:33
Yeah.

Kyle Krull - 0:15:34
That's huge. So you know, one of the things we try to focus on on the podcast is hoping to kind of like peel behind the curtain and help our listeners understand, you know, what makes Force of Nature regenerative, what are they doing differently compared to other, you know, protein producers in the industry. So curious, you take like pick one or two of your favorite proteins that you offer and explain to the consumers like what is it that you, how is your sourcing different from the majority of beef, bison or I mean I don't know how many of the people are doing wild boar, whether or not you could ever not be regenerative?

Robby Sansom - 0:16:05
But just.

Kyle Krull - 0:16:06
Through what that looks like from your end.

Robby Sansom - 0:16:08
Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean I think the first, the first thing is like what is the majority, what's the challenge? Who got this is a deep, this is a long, what's the challenge with the existing system, right. Why do we exist and what are we trying to create awareness to and then change I think. There are so many things that that the current system is. Is doing that creates issues that need to be addressed right. And I think it'll give me the grace for some some length here I think one is agriculture at general is is is concerning. It's not plant. It's not just the animal agriculture plant agriculture should not be getting a free pass. Plant agriculture is a scourge on the earth right. And and and by all means like it's been you know for 10,000 years since the agriculture revolution and then in the last couple generations with the Green Revolution. I think the intention.

Robby Sansom - 0:16:30
Has been, you know, how do we support societies? How do we create food? How do we avoid starvation, which would have plagued our species for millennia? And even still does in some places, but not anywhere near to the degree and and and and the footprint would have. But you know what one of the tradeoffs been and it's been you know desertification of like 70% of our fertile lands across the Globe, Globe. It's been the loss of topsoil globally and the topsoil is this tiny, tiny, tiny thin layer that stands over the crust of the earth that takes 500 plus years for nature to build that is finite and we are losing it at rapid paces and when it's gone.

Robby Sansom - 0:17:08
You lose the ability to sustain life terrestrial life largely because the microbiology in that soil supports the plant and animal life on that ground level, which supports the herbivores and omnivores which feed the carnivores, which all die and go back into this. So like loss of topsoil is a major threat to our existence and and and all existence of all life. You can add in pollinator die offs, you can add in dead zones in oceans, you can add in atmospheric carbon. People think that cow burps are the challenge. For the reason we have carbon issue 40 percent, 40% of the legacy load of carbon in the atmosphere is the result of tilling ground for plant planting crops right there. All carbon based life. The ground is alive. It is full of organic matter if it is healthy soil and when you turn that over it oxidizes and releases carbon into the atmosphere and so.

Robby Sansom - 0:18:09
You know, the carbon issues lead to ocean acidification issues. I mean, I just keep going on, right? Droughts, floods, food security. And so on. So like, these are massive challenges, right? That that we need to be, we need to understand that the common denominator in all of this is, is our agriculture system, right? A system that tells a lot, a system that destroys these land bases and doesn't.

Robby Sansom - 0:18:41
Rebuild them. It's extractive. A system that requires a lot of chemical amendments. You know the the, the herbicide, fungicide, pesticide, all that goes into waterways. We got glyphosate showing up in breast milk and the majority of people's urine now just because they're spraying highly toxic cancer causing disruptive agents directly onto the surface of our food. These are all things that we want to be known and talked about, especially at a day and time when the average age of.

Robby Sansom - 0:18:55
Um, our population is in decline, which is shocking, right? I mean, it's should be. We should be extending life, not, not, not shortening it. Particularly in animal based systems, there's a lot of criticism and I think a lot of challenge, right. So going back to the origin of the question, what might a typical supply chain for beef look like? And again beef is chicken is kind of king now, but beef spin king for a long time and still up there with with with poultry and it would look like an animal being raised on, on, on, you know, born on a on a cow calf operation. So a bunch of cows, they have a handful of calves as soon as they can wean those animals as quickly as possible, probably earlier than they should be.

Robby Sansom - 0:19:31
Games for optimal health and Wellness and and quality of life, they'll they'll go to another operation to try to gain weight as quickly as possible and that'll that'll generally be by confining them in some form to limit their activity, to limit their calorie burn and offering them grains because grains have the same impact on animals that they do on us. They fatten you up, that's a lot of carbs and you put on a lot of inner muscular fat or AKA marbling, which you know for us would be a sign of chronic disease and for the USDA is a sign of premium. Which is kind of bizarre. That's.

Kyle Krull - 0:20:35
A really great way to frame that, yeah, I love.

Robby Sansom - 0:20:37
That. And, and we're sort. And it's funny because America's standard for that sort of scoffed at around the rest of the globe, right? They put a different premium on, on flavor and terroir and you know, all sorts of other things besides, just like how fat is it? But other than Japanese, they love, they love their fat. And then, you know it, it it, it had certainly finished its life in a feed lot, right, highly confined again getting a certain regiment. And most of these animals will be, will be harvested between 20 and 30 months, right? They're very young, probably closer to 20 months, right, particularly in beef.

Robby Sansom - 0:20:56
And so, you know, it's, it's kind of a sad sedentary existence, you know, it's very industrialized meaning it's almost like their widgets in a machine and frankly the producers are. Cogs in that wheel, you know, they're not thriving in this environment. They're trying to figure out how to make their ends meet. And there's some large, large government interests and large, large corporate interests that make it very, very difficult for them. They borrow and borrow and borrow and eventually lose their land. And, you know, at the turn of the, the turn of the 19th into the 1900s, you know, maybe.

Robby Sansom - 0:21:30
1/4 of the population was were farmers and now it's probably 2 1/2 or 3% and we lose 5 or 10,000 farms a year and Bill Gates somehow can manage to buy their land. But these families that have been doing it for five generations can't afford to stay on their land. So we've created this paradox makes no sense right. Our neighbors are no longer producing our food and it's even the land base is falling into you know some profit motivated corporate interests. And, and there, there you go. You know, you have really cheap, sad, sedentary animals that turn into food that is celebrated for its cheapness, right? We call it. We say commodification is a celebration of price above all else, at the expense of all else. And all of those shortcuts and all of those.

Robby Sansom - 0:22:16
Unilateral compromises have led to being able to produce food up in a super hyper efficient system, right? And we do a lot of cattle and in a small location and very, very quickly. And again, it's so efficient. It's brittle, it's fragile. You guys saw that?

Robby Sansom - 0:22:35
During COVID, when one plant shut down and all of a sudden we had to, we had an excess supply of meat and excess demand for meat. Simultaneously, retail shelves were empty and farmers were having the euthanize animals because of 1 plant going down, right. What a screwed up system and and. In an outcome that highlights the security issue, a stability issue that we should never be seeing here, right? Um, and you know the other thing is we have an AG, a farm bill that puts hundreds of billions of dollars into prop up this system. You know much of that going into to you know kind of food stamp programs, but a lot of it going into supporting this monocrop agriculture production of super cheap corn and soy.

Robby Sansom - 0:23:14
It was super cheap. Cheap carton soy. You can over produce it, you can control the world's supply of it, you can put it into every food in the grocery store and you can feed animals on it and make every system dependent on it. And that foundational layer for every one of those systems makes it really cheap. Even though it causes harm, the production of those grains causes harm to the land, it causes harm to the farmers in those communities. Farmers suicide, I just mentioned is higher than the suicide rate of veterans returning from war. I mean, what a hopeless reality to be in.

Robby Sansom - 0:23:37
Yeah and and and then it leads to really really really cheap food on the shelf and that cheap food on the shelf may have a low sticker price but it has a high cost and it's relatively I don't want to say value list right it's meat is better than anything else however you can get it eat meat right. But there's a huge cost to this commodified subsidized cheap meat that is deferred and and human health and health of land and well. Being a like social issues, well-being of humans and community and your own the the the welfare of those animals and so on. And that doesn't reflect it in that price. And I would argue if it was reflected in that price you would probably double or triple it.

Robby Sansom - 0:24:38
Um. So there, there, there, there's sort of a representation of of of what, in a nutshell that the existing conventional system is and to. To compare that to one of our supply chains, we'll, we'll look at, we'll look at bison, right. You know these animals, some of these animals are coming from land, from huge land masses where there those bison themselves are being managed. Exactly. To the best of our limited ability to emulate how bison would have impacted the land.

Robby Sansom - 0:25:18
Through the millennia since they were here, you know, I mean these these animals are are keystone species keystone meaning they have a disproportionate and necessary impact on their broader environment. So there would have been millions of bison roaming and herds from Mexico to Canada trampling on the ground, unselective Bly grazing everything leaving relatively quickly and in their wake fertilizing with their you know, their manure and and and irrigating with their urination and providing wallows which would be habitat for certain. Species and all this kind of stuff. Again, this beautiful elaborate circle of life and dance and balance and equilibrium. And they made it. They wouldn't come back for months at a time, right. So in our operate and our partner ranches, they're moving the bison around. They're allowing them to have that impact. They're doing those things. The bison are living longer. They're not being weaned early. They're not being sent to to feed lots to fatten up. And and even we're measuring the impact on those land bases is water, is the water cycle improving?

Robby Sansom - 0:25:55
Is making more effective use of rainfall? Is storing in its soil, is the is the soil organic matter in soil life improving as it is it increasing overtime? Is it it's holding capacity for water improving? Is biomass increasing? Is insect species improving and bird species improving and other animal native wildlife improving? And on and on and on down the list of things you can look at and measure both empirically, scientifically and anecdotally up to and including in some cases.

Robby Sansom - 0:26:26
Uh, partner ranches are setting aside habitat for. Endangered species, ground nesting owls and black footed ferrets and partnership with universities and the federal government right trying to create food while also restoring native systems, which is. How it can be done and how it should be done, you know, right. And and then ultimately producing healthy animals that are thriving themselves and thriving ecosystems being part of a solution and truly replacing a vicious system with a virtuous 1 where those animals fulfill their potential on the land as a species and then eventually make it back into the food supply, which we all do. We're all part of the food supply for other living takes life to sustain life.

Robby Sansom - 0:27:14
And then we celebrate those the Rose animals played while living and then we celebrate the role of those animals played as part of our food supply and nourishing our bodies. And we tell their stories and and and we honor what that is when it's in the package and and and prior to being in the package. And so I think that's probably the most succinct juxtaposition I can give between what we're trying the best example of what we're trying to do can compare to the worst example of what exists. But the truth is the worst example of what exists. Is the overwhelming majority we'll call it 99.9% of of you know Monica, sorry ruminant protein is coming from that system and and the the the big challenge in all of this is.

Robby Sansom - 0:28:13
The system plays such wicked games with consumers, right? You know, naming, putting a brand on something so and so farms or so and so farms doesn't exist, right? Or calling it natural what? What a joke is the natural claim. There's no real definition. Everything came from this earth. It's just it's just a way to pull the wool over the customer's eyes. Vegetarian fed claims on pork and poultry, right. The only way you get that is if you have a curated and controlled food supply. They don't have access to the outdoors where they could forge an omnivores, can't eat an omnivore diet. I mean, we've convinced ourselves it's a positive.

Robby Sansom - 0:28:36
When really it should be a red flag, you know, again, it's just been one lie after another in in that, in that food system. And I think the average consumer overwhelmingly believes that the the system that they're supporting is markedly different than it is. Because they try to buy organic or they try to buy something that says grass fed and and the truth is you can be organic and you can be grass fed coming off of a feed lot doing all of the things that we just said, we're challenges. Is it better than the most conventional? Certainly we're on a spectrum here right. But 100% grass fed, pasture raised, regenerative is is absolutely the gold standard and it encompasses so many necessary things. And I think I think what we are offering is a manifestation of what consumers want, want to support.

Robby Sansom - 0:29:25
Value and and and would prefer to believe their food is coming from, but they have been shielded from that reality. The wolf's been pulled over their eyes, and frankly, they've been complicit in supporting a system that's frankly countered to their intention and counter to their values. Right. What is more wow upsetting than to think of a consumer going to a store looking at packages with intention? And paying a premium because they see a claim that they think is representative of something that it is not, that's fucking bullshit. And that is pervasive in this industry. And so that's part of what?

Robby Sansom - 0:30:18
We're here to do is to create awareness, create education, create access. And my job isn't to say, hey, you were wrong. If you think that system is great, you're wrong for thinking that you're wrong for supporting it. Honestly, I don't agree with you, but I believe in your right to have your opinion. I just think in order to form your opinion, you need to have transparency and access to the truth. And that's been shielded, right? That's all they've been shielded. It's been concealed.

Robby Sansom - 0:30:29
And I think as we can open consumers eyes up, many if not most will gladly support a system that is is transparently representing what they see value in. And that's what we're trying to do. We're just trying to create awareness and give choice. And it's working.

Anthony Corsaro - 0:31:13
That was that was The ReGen Brand's manifesto right there. That was like exactly why we do this work. You, you, you did it better than we could ever, ever have done it. So thank you. And it's it's beautiful and very well said. Curious if you could touch for for those that don't know kind of about savory and EOB and like you know there is this, there's this very pervasive like plant based versus animal based all animal AG is bad, but talk talk about land and market and EOV and just kind of how y'all are proving that like these are the natural systems these these are doing, they're having all these positive benefits because I think the average consumer just needs more information there.

Robby Sansom - 0:31:51
Yeah totally. And and and I wanna be I wanna be transparent too right. I think this is a big challenge when we talk about ideals not every single thing that we produce as a regenerative claim on it. If it if it says regenerative on our package which our beef and bison do it's fully regenerative. Poultry is a little different. We we have a we have our own podcast called where hope grows. We did a whole episode on why and what our poultry supplies right. You know Venice and all their 100% grass fed pasture raised but we're working what we're working and it doesn't matter what our system is. We're transparent about it. We're working to raise the bar. We don't believe there's a destination you can race to and dig your heels, and we believe in raising the bar every year. We believe in celebration and progress over perfection, but we should be pursuing perfection. And that standard should be raising every every year as well. And so we don't have EOV on all of our products. We have a lot of product, we have a lot of supply that is EV, but we don't, we may not, may not have it on the package. And there's a handful of more complicated reasons for that when it comes to building a brand and scaling and supply and the costs of these.

Robby Sansom - 0:32:31
Third party verifications, none of none of that is cheap, right? And and the more little circles and emblems you put on a package, the more expensive it is to produce for the producer and harder it is for a brand to build a supply chain for and more costly ultimately it is for the consumer with the reduced supply. So we're trying to build a brand that stands for all of those things and has integrity and transparency and value and absolutely limit the number of seals that we have on the package from A to make it easier for consumers. And for produce producers who are to be rewarded by the system. With Savory and POV in particular, we started that. The building that was savory, you know, almost back in the early days of decade, epic. So it's been nearly a decade ago. The idea was organic is great but we need, you know, we're generative is better. We need, we need a standard. We need a ubiquitous gold standard to validate because greenwashing occurs and it will occur for regenerative and it's starting to occur and there are varying opinions on what is and isn't greenwashing and to what extent we're seeing that. But something will have to rise.

Robby Sansom - 0:33:26
To the top to hold folks in the supply chains accountable and give confidence for consumers who don't have the time or energy to be highly educated experts on every single thing that there is. And so you know that's that, that's what EOV and land the market really are attempting to do. EV is the ecological Outcome verification protocol that the savory organization has put together to measure outcomes on land such that empirically we can substantiate regeneration is happening and I can, I can dive into that. But basically they go on the land on varying intervals and measure across all different aspects and variables to come up with a score that. Says Yep this land base is getting better every year as a result of what's going on on it and and Landa market then is the seal that you can put on that package to say like hey this is landmark it verified you know we are verifying that it meats our standard and this protocol and is producing these outcomes. So that is savory eov and savory land to market. Rodale Institute has a different one. It's called regenerative organic. It's more like the organic standards. Savory is outcomes based, it's measuring outcomes.

Robby Sansom - 0:34:43
The rodeo version is is practices based. It's limiting what you can do to ideally Dr. outcomes through practice. Savory is more flexible, it helps with all the you know it's sensitive to all the eco regions, what's what's possible and and one climate is different you know it's possible and a rainy. What you know. Grassland that gets great precipitation and fertile soil is way different than in an arid desert area, right. And so trying to two different approaches now that there's there's more and more coming on every day we're gentrified as another one that's coming up and coming. And so yeah you know again like going back to Force of Nature, right like right now our standard is.

Robby Sansom - 0:35:37
Um, either you are one of those three, or we have gone out to your ranch and done our own indexing and protocol, and we have some verifiers ourselves that go on to the land to do that, but we haven't hitched our wagon solely to one. It gives us the opportunity to access more supply and support more good actors. On the frontline of the land bases without having limitations or or or unnecessary hurdles as we're again we're just trying to connect these folks to consumers with those with the most integral product and process with those few hurdles as possible. So one day somebody will rise to the top, it will be a little green washed and then the next thing will, will, will, will, will, will take its place. But you know we're we're on a journey there and in the meantime we're trying to support everybody that's doing work in that on that.

Robby Sansom - 0:36:16
Path and try to be as honest and transparent as we can with what we are doing. And again, we're not perfect. Now happy to dive into where and why and we put on our website and we'll tell stories, but. You know, I think that's just really important for for folks to understand it, I think. That to me might be a, you know, to to end this once again, a long diatribe of mine. That might be the thing I would encourage folks to do, you know, claims.

Robby Sansom - 0:37:02
The majority of them are out to the highest bidder. Anybody with the checkbook can make just about any claim on any product needs no exception. Plants are no exception. Like if they're not, if they have something that they're excited to show you, they will show you. If they have something to conceal from you, they will make a claim and not be transparent after that.

Anthony Corsaro - 0:37:32
Yeah.

Robby Sansom - 0:37:32
Right. So I'm not gonna name any names, but there are, there are large brands out there sold in large natural retailers that are bullshit. There are large brands out there that do direct to consumer sales that make grass fed type claims of pasture, raid types claims that are bullshit. You know, yeah, look at that. Look, start with the claim and let that be the point where you say, OK, they meet the minimum bar. Let me dig in. Let me see what they're actually doing, that they're proud of, the stories they're telling the the human beings they're working with, the impact they're having and then all that, whether or not those. Claims are substantiated or not and and and I would suggest sadly the majority of the time it's it's active aggressive greenwashing you know mark marketing machines doing their job to to perpetuate the status quo of. Taking advantage of consumers desires to take shortcuts and use use claims to get a short-term win.

Anthony Corsaro - 0:38:27
Yeah, y'all, y'all done a phenomenal job on that marketing and messaging side, right, the direct to consumer execution, the website, the social. But I'm curious just strictly retail, right, when we have such a short amount of time. I know you all have done some like really cool freezers for some retailers. I'm sure you've tried lots of things on the merchandising side. The packaging is obviously very strong, but like what has really worked because this regenerative thing is it is big, it's complex. You know these, these are not things that you can get across in, in the two seconds that somebody's. Looking at that package of meat, so like how have you all thought through that and what has really been effective there?

Robby Sansom - 0:39:03
Yeah, it's really, it's really interesting, right? There's so many complicated layers to all of this and how we as consumers have been conditioned, conditioned to think we should be cheap, conditioned to think these these falsities that we don't question and then whenever. Whenever we're faced with a different perspective, we're like, oh shit, wait a minute that that that is different. It doesn't make a ton of sense. You know, I think in in retail in particular there's an interesting back story that's important to understand. The dry grocery stores want to drive traffic into their stores, you know what I mean? Like they're they're nothing without shoppers walking in the door. And historically speaking the, the the top drivers of traffic are access to quality protein, access to quality produce and price.

Robby Sansom - 0:39:19
You know the the the origin story and the original intention of Whole Foods would have been quality protein and produce and products right. The You know Walmart would be the price you know sort of classic example of you know how do we make things as cheap as possible. Now of course Amazon which is interesting now connected with Whole Foods and there's things happening there that are that are fascinating but you know again it's all just it's an evolution and doesn't mean doesn't mean bad or good it just means different and how do we how do we all approach it and play a role the best of our ability but grocery stores in order to drive that. With traffic on access to quality protein, you know, they they wanna have private label brands. That's why you see all of the, you know, every grocery chain has their own version of their own branded products that they own the supply chain for because then they can make sure they're the only ones that offer it and they can say, hey, this is the best product out there, you can only get it here and they do that with their meat and the other way that they do that is the service case, right? The unbranded meat and the back of the store where you have a service case and a butcher and a person there to talk to that you can make a relationship with and.

Robby Sansom - 0:40:18
And it's great. I mean, I'm not to say it's great that we have that selection, that opportunity. But when you, when you do it that way, you lose the truth. You lose the the story behind the food. What farmer did it come from? How is that animal treated? How did it live, its potential? What impact did it have? Umm, what else is there to the story besides the claim? Because again, the claim is just scratching the surface. There's so much more.

Robby Sansom - 0:40:48
And the truth is. Many retailers it doesn't matter whether you're going to 1 competitor or another they're getting their meat from the same place. It's like Tyson. Yeah yes it's you know the big guys and those guys are they have their 100% grass fed items you know what I mean like they have their items that are meeting all the minimum bars and standards to make a claim and and and so it's it's been interesting as the center of the grocery store has evolved right. All of a sudden we went from like hey packages are convenient. You can make you can make food in a minute and.

Robby Sansom - 0:41:12
Yeah. You can do all these things and it's fortified. And then I think we realized zone now this is this has gone wildly awry. Yeah. And then brands in the center of the grocery store started coming out with values and and missions and hey, we're better for you in this regard and we're and we're not putting this in here and we're. Donating to this cause and you know, people began to form a relationship with their food again and then that slowly expanded and began to permeate into the perimeter of the store, which is the commodities. You saw that with dairy and then you saw it in milks and then you saw it in eggs. And I think meat is still a you know, kind of a frontier where it's it hasn't yet happened, but in in order to.

Robby Sansom - 0:41:59
Have a brand like Force of Nature on the shelf that tells that story, that consumers can actually form a relationship not just with the brand, but with the food and the animals and the people raising the animals through our content and transparency. That's sort of revolutionary in this section of the grocery store. So a long, long way around to get back to your question about what's working and what's not, a lot of grocery stores have what's called a clean door, clean floor, clean store policy. They only want their stuff. They only want their branding, their their promotions, their red stickers. They'll let you do anything to stand out.

Robby Sansom - 0:42:24
So it starts with your package, what stands out on your package because that's all you get to do to tell your story. It better be an effective job. And so I think our team has done a wonderful job of branding and imagery and and romance copy on the package website, you know, driving, driving awareness through our digital work and content to you know prior to getting into the store or following up from the store more. More. More.

Robby Sansom - 0:43:18
Points of exposure for consumers, I think where we have been able to chip away at and convince retailers to let us have an off shelf, put a put a a a branded freezer and put clean freezer clings that tell a story, create QR codes that lead to custom landing pages. Take more of our products, we have more real estate telling more story. We've been able to see more and more and and and more and more success. But I mean it's really all of that is really trying to reverse again some of the Convention and and conditioning of the system of. You know, being brands not really exist. I mean, like, you know, again, if I were to ask, it's different today. But it's funny, when we started this company, if I was to ask somebody what's your favorite brand of meat, they'd get stumped. They'd be like.

Robby Sansom - 0:43:53
What what do you, what do you mean, what do you mean? It's like I just, I shop at this store, right, right. Yeah. And and that's that's sort of a symptom of what that of what that system was. But with brands coming forward and consumers selecting for brands, they're able to choose to align.

Robby Sansom - 0:44:06
Their values with the values of the brands and that's what they're looking for. And so I think grocery stores are seeing that. I think they're also saying that as meat is under attack, they you know. The conveniences and the shortcuts that the prior system had taken is going to begin to expose them. So they need to begin to build an alternative set. I think as younger shoppers, you know, the millennials and whatever the heck, the new name for the generation after that and after that, as we've tested, data constantly changes. Yeah, you know, 80 something percent or more are looking for better for me, better for the environment, better for welfare. And so they know the consumer of the future is looking for these things. And so they're all.

Robby Sansom - 0:44:32
Consciously recognizing of the shortcomings of where they've been, the opportunity going forward, the necessity and you know it's it's going I think it's going to work. It's it itself out. But we're gonna definitely continue to try to be a catalyst for that and and and and and certainly an adjutant that kind of helps push the momentum and make it an accelerant that should say to make it go a little faster.

Anthony Corsaro - 0:45:23
Yeah.

Kyle Krull - 0:45:24
You mentioned a lot of the challenges here with, you know, the certification space right now. The challenges in conveying these branded meat values to consumers at retail, you know, if you could. Waive the regenerative magic wand per se and change the way meat is sold at retail specifically. What would you like to what would you want it to look like? What do you want to see there?

Robby Sansom - 0:45:49
No, man. Well, if I could make it make a wave, a magic wand, it would start in Washington with peace.

Kyle Krull - 0:45:55
Yeah.

Robby Sansom - 0:45:56
Yeah, so much of this goes goes back to this this system. Right. This, you know we talked about the complex, right, this complex that is. Big Pharma, big chemical, Big AG, big petroleum, all funding what? What is in their own best interests? And they all have an interest in the food supply and the farming system and these bills that put spend hundreds of billions of taxpayer dollars to perpetuate the status quo.

Robby Sansom - 0:46:11
And to and to. Create research and reporting that is. Beneficial and curated and and to slow down the sort of progress that we're trying to make, right. I think, I think the people on the land and I think the consumers would be happy to to to support the system if it was as more available than it is because it's currently kind of kept down. I think the perfect supply though in the grocery store wouldn't be markedly different than it is you know what I mean? It would be, it would be animals originating from their same original location, right.

Robby Sansom - 0:46:40
I I'd say one. Um, we would have more animals, more ruminant animals on more land, right. I think we have something like 2 billion, not quite 2 billion acres of land here. Animals are on small percentage of it. They could be on a very, very large percentage of it. A lot of it is properly and which is not you know roughly 900 million or more acres of cropland which isn't really getting the benefit of animal impact and historically would have had it and needs it. So I would I would see that being incorporated.

Robby Sansom - 0:47:12
Would see the celebration of animals and the services that they perform as a part of those systems. I would see the true acknowledgement of the heroic efforts of these nameless and faceless people who live every day suffering to feed our population and and not being overlooked and and insulted and discredited for the fact that they work the land for us. And I'd see those numbers growing and access to that as as a, as a worthy pursuit and and. And profession. Growing as well. And then yeah, I think you see the story behind the food and the system better represented in the grocery store. If it's a good system, we shouldn't need to avail the truth and it shouldn't be concealed and it should be. And if it's a good system, you know again going back to my prior comments, right. If it's good, you wanna show it. So they should love to talk about their supply chains and share videos and stories and and and be transparent and and and and.

Robby Sansom - 0:48:14
Authentic with how and what they're actually doing. And I don't think it should only be my standard, right? I mean, again, we have different people and different geographies and different socioeconomic backgrounds that that prefer a need and require different things. But I would argue if we change the system. The we we addressed the cost issue, right. We level that playing field almost instantaneously and if we look at true value, there's nothing more valuable and less costly than these systems. So I think that kind of works itself out in the wash in time as we get there. But I I would envision you know again us adjusting ultimately and put more shortly our food production systems plant and animal should be up operating in harmony with nature. We should be putting out more pounds of food.

Robby Sansom - 0:48:59
Per acre we should be positively impacting more acres of land would be addressing all the things that we're concerned about would be fading, feeding more people more nutrient rich food and we you know these global catastrophes that were all you know the news is constantly fear mongering to us would begin to be mitigated because most of them point back to agriculture.

Kyle Krull - 0:49:50
Yeah, right. You mentioned positive impact on the land and previously you had mentioned with the Savory EV certification and some of your other field testing that you measure your partner ranches, you know? So again, it matter levels, water infiltration rates, do you have any stories at the top of your head of that, you know a range that's been a partner range for X number of years where you can say like you know, we've seen this organic matter increase from X to Y? Or do you have any of those metrics off offhand that you do want to share with us?

Robby Sansom - 0:50:18
There's a few examples you know, I think. I'll give two the the the first is. You know in our days at Epic and we talked about General Mills and with their support we funded a life cycle assessment at in Georgia at white oak pastures several several $100,000. These are not inexpensive tests and we used an organization called Quantas Laboratories which is the same research group that impossible foods used to to do their life cycle assessment in the life cycle assessment is supposed to be a beginning to end look at the. Carbon impact, that I should say the greenhouse gas or carbon equivalent impact? Of a system and and I think if you look at conventional agriculture, you know beef is almost 20 plus pounds of carbon per pound of beef produced and pork and poultry are upwards of £10 per pound produced and.

Robby Sansom - 0:51:03
Corn and soy and crops are, you know, 656 pounds per pound and you know. Impossible foods and beyond Burger claim that for every pound of sludge they make, they only emit 3, three to four pounds, 3 1/2 to 4 pounds of carbon equivalents into the atmosphere. So it's. Which is hilarious because like by their own standard they're still emitting more carbon. Yeah. And they're they're impacting so they they can maybe make the claim that it's less bad. But again they make a lot of claims that are totally, absolutely bogus. But the the life cycle assessment did it. White pastures showed. You know, we thought it was important to do that because we can see anecdotally the progress.

Robby Sansom - 0:51:26
You can see more plants and diversity and species returning and topsoil building and water infiltration traits and infiltration rates improvement. We hadn't done this level of analysis and what it showed at White oak was in this example, in this context over dinner and agriculture that they could sequester 3 1/2 pounds. Of carbon and carbon equivalents out of the atmosphere, store it in the soil and do that for every pound of protein, a beef protein that they produced. And so the easy way to take all that science and turn it into something that that I figured out consumers more readily understood as I would always say in order to in order to offset the carbon of an eating and a possible burger, you eat one or generative beef burger, which is pretty bad ass right? I think in that research, we did a lot of other stuff in that research like white oak pastures improve their soil organic matter levels like 300% and the first five years, the soil nutrition, improved water infiltration, infiltration rates, improved growing topsoil. Again, they're addressing all these issues, right, bringing native species back like in the bald eagle in their case. So really, really cool, really expensive, very formal, very scientific, etcetera. I think other examples and there's, there's many of them, but just to make it maybe bring a little closer to home personal for you guys.

Robby Sansom - 0:52:41
Both have been out to Rome Ranch and Dunfield harvests and tours. And you know, it's funny that in in a few short years, you know that operation as well has seen all of the same things. So we're getting better, improve dramatically hundreds of percent. Penetration rate systems, species, biomass, all the stuff that you would look at and say, hey, is this a healthy land base getting better and better after having been conventionally farmed for many years and in some of the fields that y'all toured? You know, 3-4 years ago we would say, Oh my God, look at this is like a desert and This is why. And now we have to go photos of what it looked like because it's hard to give provide context where something looks healthy to say no. Like you have to understand where this was two years ago.

Robby Sansom - 0:53:41
And so I think, you know, you see springs getting aquifers being more charged, spring starting to have water flow again, bird pop like Audubon Society going nuts over, bird populations showing up in these areas, researchers wanting to come out and do that kind of stuff. And it's really, really cool and there's tons and tons like everywhere somebody's adopted regenerative. There's an example like that, right.

Anthony Corsaro - 0:54:18
Yeah, it it can be really overwhelming as a consumer and one thing I always recommend to people that change my life is just go to go to, go to a farm, go to a ranch. Like, I had a pretty transformational experience at Rep provisions in Oklahoma, which is another Savory accredited Savory hub. And Eric planted organic corn right next to a traditional diverse perennial grasses, right. And like one was way better than the other and it was still good. Organic corn, like great, you know, and it's not not all crop agriculture is bad, but it's more so just like even with all the data, which is great and we need it as human beings, we've just lost total connection to food and go, go. Go to do that one place like I've been to white oak, I've been to Rome ranch, I've been to revisions or or all these other places, and your senses aren't gonna lie to you like you're gonna see, OK, this place is living in balance with the natural systems that is supposed to be in this ecosystem.

Robby Sansom - 0:55:13
Yeah, totally. And and and I think if you can do that absolutely. You know what I mean? Yeah, I think so that going back to greenwashing like there's a lot of people that say they grass feed that therefore say they're regenerative and even. I mean yeah I will always support community and local, right. Local isn't always better. I think we just have to be careful. I think generally we should be supporting our communities. I just want to make sure that the people in our communities are supporting are the right ones and the ones that are good actors and and doing what they can to be to be part of a solution besides just. Getting closer so I just having a more common zip.

Anthony Corsaro - 0:55:45
Code.

Robby Sansom - 0:55:46
Which is relevant, it's not everything. And um. Ohh I forget where I was going with that. Well, you, you just made a point. Remind me, sorry.

Anthony Corsaro - 0:55:57
Some, some, some people can't afford to go through that. Is that.

Robby Sansom - 0:56:00
Where you're going with it, right. Yeah. You know, I think or they don't or not that interested or they don't have the time or they don't, you know what I mean? And it's like, so how do we again, that's like how do we make that hurdle smaller? Well, we go to those places and we tell their stories and we create videos and we share that content. We raise awareness and create experience and the next most convenient way which is in the digital, in the digital realm or hopefully in a grocery store, in a. In a restaurant and again try to reach people where they are. Maybe we can inspire more to go onto the land again there should not be a substitute for that but you know we're we're, we're the you know we may be talking about few single digit percentage points the number of people that can can or will go visit. We're looking at 100 times you know dozens of times that at least that that we'll check it out online and and and maybe get inspired to become more and more committed which is which is what we're trying to do and we talk about that too. Um. And really like what we're trying to do, you know, I, I, I have, I have said from the beginning and will continue to say I think the best way to source meat is not necessarily Force of Nature. We're a great way to source meat, but we're not, right. I think the best way to source your meat is.

Robby Sansom - 0:56:57
Frankly, I I, I think personally, in my my opinion it's to put on a backpack and to get into the mountains and yeah, look around and haul shit and supper and try not to get chewed up by the terrain or the the animals that are looking to chew you up. And and and sailed. You know not and suffer and struggle and not succeed in recognizing how how challenging it is to feed yourself and then to do it again and succeed and feel the reward of a successful hunt. But also the the the complex emotions that come with taking a life and an appreciation for that life you have and the respect for that life that you have and and frankly a relationship that you have formed through that trial and through that transition that will manifest into. A different experience as you eat it as you.

Robby Sansom - 0:58:00
Savor it and share it and think of it as as as as a life and not you know product and Styrofoam package. I think that's something that's at the top of the list right. I think second is to either be a regenerative farmer and you know have your own regenerative ranch and be growing and producing your own food or to be next door neighbors to one that's the form of local I'd say all day every day you go support them over us and they're they're if they're if they have everything you need they're doing it right and they're next door like by all means. I think that those those two things while well fantastic are not as accessible to everybody. And if you really want to drive change at scale and we want to really want to recognize that this population largely lives in the northeast and the deep and the far West. There are massive groups of people that have have barriers between them and those those points in it and really that's of course in nature it is here for right like how do we provide the next best solution supporting his regenerative branches all over the country and these these smaller regional food systems but doing international scale.

Robby Sansom - 0:58:34
During the education, doing the hard work and validation and sourcing, trying to make it tie it up when it's convenient and easy. You know that that that's where we fit I think and and the and the and the hierarchy of of sourcing food which I still think is light years beyond the existing food system and the overwhelming majority of what even the most well-intentioned consumers are, are are supporting and complicit in supporting and have access to that I think is like one of the more underlying. Sad tragedies, right? Where you have people that intend to do good and unknowingly are complicit in perpetuating a system that's entirely the opposite. Golly, that makes me upset to think about the the the taking advantage of the well-intentioned, the good intentions of people at a premium.

Kyle Krull - 0:59:54
Yeah, it's it's such a good point, you know, and all awfully own this. No, you mentioned the the merger earlier 2015, 2016 ERA of trying to explain the regenerative concept to General Mills and all the pushback you're getting. Right. And I was a, I watched cowspiracy during that time period. I was like well, I got to stop consuming red meat because I've been fed this narrative that, you know, red meat is bad for the planning. And so I I didn't eat for three years then I learned about regenerative and I was like, Oh my gosh, this is so powerful. It's not only like it don't do any harm. This is a do good and support life by choosing this form of protein, which is just super powerful and it's a huge paradigm shift. So to your point about consumers trying to pay for a premium to do the right thing, they're just being fed the wrong information. So it's we super appreciate you taking the time to hop on this podcast and you explain to everybody who's listening, like this is the truth behind how your food is made and the type of impact it can make for both the planet and your health etcetera. But on that note, I wanted to touch a little bit on the future. So you mentioned all the different.

Kyle Krull - 1:00:24
Types of protein that kind of forces working.

Robby Sansom - 1:00:57
With Mamie one I'm I'm sorry to interrupt my mag one point on that before we transition I just think it's interesting on on on the health and and and being everybody being pushed in that way right. I mean again our origin is in a vegan energy bar company so like we're no exception and I think most of the most of the Paleo leaders and keto leaders and even the carnivore influencers were all generally many were vegans at one point for this reason they were trying to be tip of the spear and they were they were. Going out of their way to make conscious effort to. Do the best thing that they could do for their own health and Wellness and and and for the impact on a broader group of stakeholders from land to welfare of animals and so on. They they were fed the same lies that you were. Before ending up on the path that they're on now because that system failed them and the the whether it's the vegan myth and propaganda machine or vegetarianism, it tends to more often than not lead to health decline and challenge. And frankly, it perpetuates the system. That's.

Robby Sansom - 1:01:40
Of the status quo doesn't offer solutions. It's a misdirection at best. And if you look at the population of people that are. Vegan it hasn't changed because once you get there folks are pushed there rapidly but leave pretty quickly because it it it it proves hollow in terms of its ability to actually produce the intended results and so I just I just want to just take that moment to push like hey it is it is fundamentally it is not healthier everybody's different and but but by and large and generally you know that is a that is a myth that is a lie that is a misconception and and that you know again you guys have. We had other guests on here that could really get into the health and nutrition of meat. We should all have meat coming from a generative systems as a cornerstone of our diet. And the last thing I'll say on it, which I think is kind of the main point I wanted to drive to there, is it's so common, everybody, you're nodding your heads because you know the same stories, right? And this is the second company that I've been 1/3 company I've been a part of where the founders were vegan and transitioned over to, you know, Paleo and Carnivore because of health, the health impacts of being vegan. But you always hear that story, you always hear people trying veganism and trying.

Robby Sansom - 1:02:34
Vegetarianism and it causing issues and then reverting to a paleo keto carnivore type lifestyle. You never hear the alternative, you never hear somebody like truly. Following consistent the guidelines of of those diets that incorporate healthy animal proteins having issues and then reverting to vegetarian or veganism and those issues improving, right, that that doesn't exist, that should tell you a lot. I mean, if you're looking for evidence, I'd say anecdotally there's a lot of evidence there. So sorry, Kyle for interrupting, I just really wanted to drive that point.

Kyle Krull - 1:03:37
I usually .1 just to expand on that a little bit. I think that's because the general arc is you know, status quo like all me is the same is where people start, right? And then they end up like OK, I want to get better source. And instead of identifying like the nuance between regular conventionally raised me and high quality regenerative meat, they just choose to disregard me in general like I did. Even though it's just be just read me you know, because that's the easier option to make. It's easier to make that distinction to your point of like the burden that consumers face of like having to understand these. The complex systems about who is making their food and how that's just the easier way to go. But then the art comes back to well sourced meat instead of just like status quo meat, right? And I think that's the difference. If we took people who wanted to like make those healthy conscious decisions and take the first part of the journey out of the equation where they don't go straight to plant base, they could focus on the general first. I think we're going to see better health outcomes, better planetary outcomes, faster than, you know, pushing people towards plant based off the rip.

Kyle Krull - 1:04:07
But the where I was trying to go was um. What's, what's the future hold for Force of Nature? You have done some incredible work. Are you looking to expand more, you know, protein types, expand acreage, increased penetration into different channels like what? What are the goals for Force of Nature in the future?

Robby Sansom - 1:04:57
Yeah, I mean I think from a goals perspective, one of our major goals is to facilitate the creation of a global regenerative supply network, right. So create more incentive and more opportunity for folks on the on producers and ranchers and farmers. To to adopt or convert to regenerative practices. Generally speaking, you do that by creating more and more demand for the you know the, the output, the the yield off of those lands and and and so, so, so similarly more and more consumers selecting for sending demand signals for stirring that economic engine for more and more generative production, right. And that and and so that's that's our objective. We say you know from a legacy goals perspective we want to see regenerative become a household concept much as organic is today. Umm.

Robby Sansom - 1:05:48
And we say that we wanna, you know, build like create, you know, through our performance success modeling a successful path that this can be done successfully, it can be done profitably. It can be done in a way that honors what what the, what the consumer is looking for, but also what the land and the and the broader group of stakeholders need and the farmers and ranchers need prove. Prove that out and create a massive ripple effect that opens the door for others like us. And that that forces the hand of the large incumbents, right. Again kind of going back to how how change happens, change happens at scale and if we can create.

Robby Sansom - 1:06:19
Acceleration and the generation of it of even more momentum towards making these changes, we'll put these large companies on notice, OK, this doesn't work. Cutting this corner isn't working anymore. It's getting called out. There's more visibility into it. We have to step up our game when we can really start to drive change at scale. And so whatever we can do to accomplish those things is on the table for us.

Anthony Corsaro - 1:06:54
Love that you, you've been answering this final question the whole time we've been talking to you and it's a beautiful Symphony so far. So I'm, I'm, I'm curious what your final notes going to be. But to put A to put a hard quant, to, to put a hard swan on it, how do we get regen brands to have 50% market share by 2050? What are some specific things there?

Robby Sansom - 1:07:17
Oh man, that's a simple answer, though that's the shortest answer I have. Yeah, it's the consumer.

Anthony Corsaro - 1:07:22
Yeah, that's it.

Robby Sansom - 1:07:23
Yeah, I mean, I know that, you know, we live in we, we live in in this country here where we think that we can be frustrated by something like we vote, right. We can be disappointed in our political system and not feel that either side of the two primary options represent truly what we are, you know, believe and feel and value. And so we abstain, right? We just don't vote. You can see at the polls that's sort of been our reaction to the things that frustrate us and disappoint us. We can do that with our food system. You know, to the extent that we are eating or consider purchasing or consuming anything that we're, we're buying and not producing ourselves on our own land, which is all of us to, to a large degree. You know, we're, we're, we're, we're actively sending signals to support a system. And right now that. Consistent consistently historically has been supporting the system that I think is counter to our values. It's the, it's the industrial system, it's the commodity system, it's the system that's creating these challenges that generally we all express concerns with, right. And so you know I think in order to see 50% of our food convert to regenerative and and and I think our definition standard for regenerative is sort of what we've been talking about today, not what that might be or mean in 2050. I think we're talking about the intent here, not the semantics, yeah.

Robby Sansom - 1:08:15
I think the intent is land, a food that is coming from land that's helping that land. Be more resilient, be better habitat, be more self-sustaining, produce more nutrient dense food, produce more food. Preserve this incredible. Landscape of wilderness and wonderment and fertility that has gifted us the opportunity that we have today, right? That's really what we're what we're going for. I think the consumer holds all the cards. Nobody will produce a product a consumer won't buy.

Robby Sansom - 1:09:05
Stop. You stop buying the product on the shelf right now, they're gonna stop producing it. And so, you know, the consumers, you wield the most awesome weapon of all. You know, it's their choice, it's their advocacy, it's their desire to wake up and participate in being a part of the solution. And I know that seems hard and changing consumer behavior is tough. But I think in this instance it's not changing behavior. It's just creating awareness with the understanding and belief that when consumers have access to that information, they're going to choose differently. And you see this all through human history revolutions.

Robby Sansom - 1:09:27
The existence of the country that we live in today, with the rights and opportunities we have, was the result of people standing up. For being, you know, mistreated and taken advantage of. And so between now and 2050, yeah, sure, there's a lot of details. There's people and process practice and legislation, supply chains. There's a lot of there's complication to it. But at the end of the day, that stuff is readily solvable and it works itself out. When there's a reason and consumers are all of the reason, we can keep consumers misled. Dumb.

Robby Sansom - 1:10:03
Blinded to the reality around them, being complicit, trusting what's convenient, ignoring the obvious signs that any level of critical thinking would demonstrate to them that there's an issue here. You know, we can maintain the status quo and perpetuate the system through 2050. Not much longer, though, because there is a Cliff that we're racing towards, and this is finite. We're abusing and taking advantage of these systems to the extent that we will exhaust them, and then we will truly have a global crisis and tragedy. Not for the planet, because the planet will go on without us.

Robby Sansom - 1:10:28
That our place on it changes dramatically when we can't feed ourselves. But again, between now and 2050, it's a consumer. If more people become more aware and there becomes more access and more opportunity to support these systems, I think they can be not just 50% by 2050. I think they can be more. And I think at some point some way shape or form, not only is it possible, it's necessary because again, our current system is plagued and riddled with catastrophes that it is creating and we are racing towards if we don't change.

Robby Sansom - 1:11:04
But to me, they're sort of an illusion of choice here, right? It's like we pretend that, like, can we make this change by 2050 or whatever, whatever date you choose, it's like, no, we don't really have. It's really a choice. It's like either we make the change or we're fucked. And and and so you know, that's that's sort of where I'm at on that is like I'm gonna do everything I can to give people the power of choice, awareness and yeah I call it awareness and access.

Robby Sansom - 1:11:47
And and I think that will that will yield the outcome we're looking for if, if, if, we keep, if, if us and others continue to succeed in doing this.

Kyle Krull - 1:12:06
Love that answer. You know Anthony mentioned the Symphony and the final note that was that was spot on our mean it gives consumers. I love the correlation to a revolution and it it's just a really cool idea and I couldn't agree more. I think that you're spot on. You know consumers have to make the choice and again they kind of circles back to why we're doing this podcast right to spread the word, to spread the gospel, to showcase the incredible work that you and other regenerative brands are doing to make it easier for those to understand the complicated. And wants that return bicultural is.

Robby Sansom - 1:12:37
Yeah, I think, and I think the truth too is I don't. I don't mean to disparage anybody, right, I think. Again, I think most consumers will support. I just. I just don't think they've had access to the information they haven't known right. You know so I don't I don't wanna I don't wanna come across as belittling consumers who don't agree with me more along the lines of like. Well as they get more awareness and as they gain a better understanding and appreciation for the truth behind their food that is the the more that more of that occurs more momentum and and and more demand signaling towards better food systems, right. And so you know somebody hasn't been aware and have been they've been victims of a system designed to keep them in the dark. You know I don't I don't fault them for that but we're trying to we're trying to turn the lights on and from there forward that's the the opportunities in their hands to do the right thing.

Anthony Corsaro - 1:13:25
Thank you so much for joining us, man. When you're ready to run for president, you got my vote.

Robby Sansom - 1:13:30
Ohh God, I think it takes a special kind of person to to want that job and I am not putting my name in the hat.

Anthony Corsaro - 1:13:37
Maybe, maybe USDA, maybe the head of the USDA or something like that. We.

Robby Sansom - 1:13:41
Started, yeah. Well, I I appreciate. I appreciate the kind words and confidence. I think, I think I got my work cut out for me here at Force of Nature right now. But yeah, yeah, but we'll see how things go and then we'll go from there.

Anthony Corsaro - 1:13:54
Well, thank you so much for making the time. Man. This is a this is great. We're so excited to share with our audience. Thanks so much.

Robby Sansom - 1:14:00
Yeah, I appreciate you both. Again, consumers can't do their job and I can't do my job. Without folks like you all giving us this platform and this opportunity to to share the message and begin to create some of that awareness that leads to the change we all want to see manifested in the world, some great job guys and thank you.

Kyle Krull - 1:14:15
Appreciate that. One team, one dream, you know?

Anthony Corsaro - 1:14:18
Yep, exactly. For show notes, episode transcripts, and more information on our guests and what we discuss on the show, check out our website regen-brands.com. That is regen-brands.com. You can also find our regen recaps on the website. Regen recaps take less than 5 minutes to read and cover all the key points of the full hour-long conversations. You can check out our YouTube channel, Regen Brands Podcast for all of our episodes with both video and audio. The best way to support our work is to give us a 5 star rating on your favorite podcast platform. Subscribe to future episodes and share the show with your friends. Thanks for tuning into The ReGen Brands Podcast brought to you by the Regen Coalition and Outlaw Ventures.

Anthony Corsaro - 1:14:35
We hope you learned something new in this episode and it empowers you to use your voice, your time, and your dollars to help us build a better and more regenerative food system. Love you, guys.